Guest Posted February 28, 2023 Report Posted February 28, 2023 4 hours ago, hypertech said: That sounds to me like a recipe for a surprise - delays for parts and you don't know for what? O-rings and oil filters should all be on the shelf. If they are waiting for parts, something is getting repaired - surprise! I’m guessing that in your shop you have all the supplies needed and haven’t experience the parts shortages the rest of us are experiencing. Please share your secrets, I’m all ears. Quote
T. Peterson Posted February 28, 2023 Report Posted February 28, 2023 12 minutes ago, M20Doc said: I think you need to direct your comment to Don Maxwell not me. It was meant to be generic in nature, and only quoted you because of the “roster” reference and also because you too have earned a well deserved wonderful reputation. I in no way meant a rebuke or criticism to either of you! Quote
Guest Posted February 28, 2023 Report Posted February 28, 2023 14 minutes ago, T. Peterson said: It was meant to be generic in nature, and only quoted you because of the “roster” reference and also because you too have earned a well deserved wonderful reputation. I in no way meant a rebuke or criticism to either of you! My roster is equally full and screwed up, as I’m sure it is at many shops. There is a shortage of workers in every trade, not just aviation, with the current generation happy to switch jobs frequently. I’ve had 7 new Cirrus airframe dropped on me due to the crankshaft AD. These have to be worked in around all of the other work in the shop, I’ve had to delay some annuals as a result. It takes patience on all sides to make it all work out. Quote
T. Peterson Posted February 28, 2023 Report Posted February 28, 2023 17 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said: Perhaps you didn't read @redbaron1982 PIREP from last Thursday regarding the same shop. The MSC in the Northeast missed the corrosion - he sent it to Longview for repair. They have been working on it 10 months. It sounds like communication is an ongoing issue. "Still waiting on the plane, the shop that is currently working on it email me 2 weeks ago to go and pick it up but three days after they called me to say they have flown the aircraft and it was pulling to the left and they need to check the rigging. Two weeks after that, still radio silence, so I don't know how many weeks, months or years is going to take to rig the airplane. BTW: I'm starting to truly believe that GA industry is totally broken. I'm not talking about parts availability or things that are hard to fix, but customer service is a disaster, my two experience so far, one of which is with a highly renowned shop for Mooneys, is crappy in regards of customer service. Total lack of communication, and I'm not talking about daily communication, I'm talking about not answering emails or not giving an estimate on when a job is going to be finished or even started after they have had my aircraft for 10 months now. My point is that it doesn't cost money to fix customer service, it's just replying an email, having a schedule for the shop and giving precise information." I am truly sorry that some folks have very bad experiences. I can’t imagine having my airplane grounded for 10 months and counting. That would be miserable and maddening. That however does not change the fact that my experience with DM has been excellent. I wanted to offer to the OP a little encouragement and a method to contact Maxwell that might establish better communication. Empathy for the plight of others is a desirable character trait. What we must not do is adopt another’s offense as our own. Some who unwisely do so have discovered they end up more bitter than the person who actually suffered the offense. 2 Quote
T. Peterson Posted February 28, 2023 Report Posted February 28, 2023 2 minutes ago, M20Doc said: My roster is equally full and screwed up, as I’m sure it is at many shops. There is a shortage of workers in every trade, not just aviation, with the current generation happy to switch jobs frequently. I’ve had 7 new Cirrus airframe dropped on me due to the crankshaft AD. These have to be worked in around all of the other work in the shop, I’ve had to delay some annuals as a result. It takes patience on all sides to make it all work out. Well said!! Quote
Jim Peace Posted February 28, 2023 Report Posted February 28, 2023 When I bought my plane years ago I flew it to that MSC at cable airport near Ontario CA. They promised they would get to it. They had a live feed camera so I could see my plane everyday. After 6 weeks of it sitting on the ramp untouched I got a ferry permit and flew it out of there. This was going to be an annual and lots of other stuff. Would have been a home run for the shop. They did not care that I left and I got a much better job at VNY..... Quote
Schllc Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 Commenting about service on a forum like this is a dangerous game because there are always three sides of the story, and the only place to really air grievances is in person, man to man. There are a lot of challenges in this genre/industry that just don’t exist anywhere else and it has shaped into what it is, like it or not. When an airplane goes somewhere for service and an airworthy issue is found your options are pretty slim, this has an impact on the shops and the customers, meaning it alters behavior long term… Even if you are unhappy for any reason, more often than not you can’t really just take it somewhere else, even if you do, it doesn’t guarantee to save money or time. Having appropriate expectations is 80% of the battle. I’ve had work done at Don’s and I wouldn’t hesitate to go back. Don is old school, a straight shooter and no nonsense. Paul is the second generation and is a tech and avionic whiz, also a straight shooter. Once you understand their nuances and adjust your expectations to match, you will be pleased. They have a nearly unmatched level of experience, access to parts, a willingness to work unusual problems, and all at a very reasonable rate. They don’t rush for anyone, but it isn’t apathy or for lack of caring, it’s just that every single thing in their day is a hot fire emergency for someone, and they are inured. Good, fast, cheap… pick two. 4 1 Quote
Guest Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 I’ll happily sell my business to any of the “experts” on this forum, and see all of the improvements that can be made. It has a nice hangar, great staff and comes with 3 authorized service centres. Quote
redbaron1982 Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, M20Doc said: I’ll happily sell my business to any of the “experts” on this forum, and see all of the improvements that can be made. It has a nice hangar, great staff and comes with 3 authorized service centres. Where do you have it posted? I'm interested in seeing the details and how much are you asking for it. Edited March 1, 2023 by redbaron1982 1 Quote
1980Mooney Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 40 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said: Where do you have it posted? I'm interested in seeing the details and how much are you asking for it. This sounds like “If I can’t find an A&P that I like, then I am going to buy and operate my own”…. Quote
redbaron1982 Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, 1980Mooney said: This sounds like “If I can’t find an A&P that I like, then I am going to buy and operate my own”…. Lol. Not really. But I think that the original post was sarcastic about selling the shop. I think that some people consider themselves heroes or doing a social work by owning a shop. We live in a open market economy, at least in the US, so if you own a shop and you don't like it just sell it or close it. But don't get into "hey this is all I can do and you should be grateful for it". Grateful for what? You own a business and you're here to make money. So if I should be grateful for a shop being open then the shop should be grateful for me taking my business to then. Edited March 1, 2023 by redbaron1982 Quote
Yetti Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 (edited) To be fair my annual was a month. But I don't like working when it was cold. And I forgot to schedule the prop hub feel up guy. So that took a week. I did help hang a Bonanza cylinder while the Grumpy IA did the paperwork. I did replace the nose shock discs which is a pain in the arse. And now the plane is bouncy like a Tiger. Funny thing was the Grumpy IAs AD database did not have the Elevator AD. So I printed it out for him. I am not a smooth elevator kind of guy. Edited March 1, 2023 by Yetti Quote
Andy95W Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 47 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said: I think that some people consider themselves heroes or doing a social work by owning a shop. I get your point and don’t disagree in general. But when it comes to Clarence (M20Doc) it’s really not justified. The obvious proof is the amount of time he spends on MooneySpace answering questions, giving advice, and posting parts and service manual pages. All as a public service, for free. And there are probably fewer than 10 MooneySpace members who use his shop in Kitchener, Ontario, so he really doesn’t profit from his time here at all. 11 3 Quote
carusoam Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 Sooooo…. To answer the question… How long does a Mooney annual take…? About four days… Any longer than that… 1) Something didn’t go to plan… 2) Most of the work is done by one person, with help from another, every now and then… 3) Most MSers go in with a squawk sheet, parts they want installed, and get ready for the event the best they can… 4) Even getting a battery lately has been known to throw the schedule off… by weeks… If you think GA is broken now… It has been this way for a century. Look up how long AOPA has been fighting the good fight every year since the beginning of GA… The automobile manufacturers are just getting over their supply chain issues… And… if you think a teenager is going to be able to help… that is going to be one incredible teenager…!!! Just remember… Airplanes are like any other machine when it comes to service… There is a schedule for it…. there is an expected time for completion… there is a process for getting updates… (ask this up front… during the scheduling process) There is no need to drop the machine off before it’s time… Being able to communicate everything going on in any one shop… with every customer you have on the schedule… takes an incredible amount of talent and detailed memory… Then there is that skill… regarding working with customers… If you are fortunate… as a customer, you also have that great skill… working with suppliers and vendors…. My plane just came out of annual… getting it in the shop came with a slight delay… I came ready with a new battery…. But, it needed two… Fortunately, the battery delays seem to be a thing of the past…. Expect this challenge to blow over…. Just like all of the others before it… There will be another one that will crop up soon afterwards… The federal reserve is still deciding how big the recession is going to be… how deep, how long, what interest rate will handle it best… For future shop communications… expect a teenager is going to be working with his AI skills, programming a computer to make the calls…. including all the uhs and ohs in the pronounciations…. It will sound very real…. ’uh, Mr. Carusoam, this is the Mooney shop in NJ…we just want to let you know…’ -a- Quote
Pinecone Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 19 hours ago, hypertech said: That's way too long for an annual. An annual is basically just an inspection and lubrication. If scheduled properly and they put 2-3 people on it, an annual should be done in a couple days tops. Now, if you come in the door with a list of squawks or they find issues requiring immediate repair and need to get parts, that could lead to delay. It is a terminology thing. Most people use the term annual for the whole thing. Inspection, repair of issues found, and fixing any squawks you delayed to do at the time. But I agree that if issues are found, they should be discussed BEFORE parts are ordered. Unless you gave them a blanket order to fix "everything." Quote
ArtVandelay Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 A teenager can handle sending a text like: “annual inspection phase completed, we’ve ordered parts for the squawks sent previously by email, but they are back ordered and expected delay of 3 weeks”.That’s all you need.Run a credit card, online searching of parts, status updates, etc. it’s not rocket science. And all of this will allow the AP to focus on working on the planes. 2 Quote
1980Mooney Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 There is another simple solution. What is being described here are shops that are overloaded with work - either because of reputation they are attracting work from greater distances, or they are short handed of qualified workers or they lack enough parts for all the planes or because the product is becoming more service prone (Continental AD, Piper wing, Mooney elevator, etc or just accelerated age deterioration of 50-60 year old planes.) Raise shop rates way up - 20%-50% Work sane shop hours so that the shop can communicate with customers. Shops be selective in the work that they accept. That way service "demand" will come into equilibrium with service "supply". Supply meeting Demand. Free Markets. Higher shop rates will drive higher mechanic wages and attract more staff. It may also attract the formation of new shops. Or plane design becomes simpler and more reliable....maybe make them out of "plastic" with fixed gear....?! Isn't that how "Captialism" is supposed to work?..... 1 Quote
Yetti Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said: A teenager can handle sending a text like: “annual inspection phase completed, we’ve ordered parts for the squawks sent previously by email, but they are back ordered and expected delay of 3 weeks”. That’s all you need. Run a credit card, online searching of parts, status updates, etc. it’s not rocket science. And all of this will allow the AP to focus on working on the planes. That's a nice thought, but teenagers don't want to work these days. One of the local assistants who has all his hours to AP took a job as a lineman since it was paying more. I was trying to encourage him to take the AP test. He was just trying to figure out how to jump to the corp pilot job. Quote
Guest Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 I'm getting on these suggestions ASAP! Raise shop rates way up - 20%-50% Work sane shop hours so that the shop can communicate with customers. Shops be selective in the work that they accept. Quote
redbaron1982 Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 8 minutes ago, Yetti said: That's a nice thought, but teenagers don't want to work these days. One of the local assistants who has all his hours to AP took a job as a lineman since it was paying more. I was trying to encourage him to take the AP test. He was just trying to figure out how to jump to the corp pilot job. I'm not sure if I would generalize, of course there is sort of a "I'm not sure what I want but I want it right now" thing with most of young people, but that's not for sure something we can generalize to all. I have been greatly surprised by a lot of people in their 20's working their a** off to grow and waiting for things to happen and not rushing everything. Oversimplifying things saying "any teenager can do it" is not accurate, but on the opposite side is not accurate either to say "I've been in the business for 30 years, no one can teach me anything and any idea if they are not coming from me are bs". Shops with 30 years in the business (any business) can still improve significantly and also not any teenager can help a shop get better with communication. Quote
exM20K Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 16 minutes ago, M20Doc said: I'm getting on these suggestions ASAP! Raise shop rates way up - 20%-50% Work sane shop hours so that the shop can communicate with customers. Shops be selective in the work that they accept. Yeah, that'll fix it. Datapoint: my speed brakes were removed and shipped to Precise Flight on or about Feb 6. They acknowledged receipt 2 weeks later. They are due to ship back on March 8. The bottlenecks are not limited to labor and bandwidth at the shops. Shipping, outside parts and labor are a significant part of the problem and entirely outside of the control of the shop. -dan Quote
Guest Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 5 hours ago, exM20K said: Yeah, that'll fix it. Datapoint: my speed brakes were removed and shipped to Precise Flight on or about Feb 6. They acknowledged receipt 2 weeks later. They are due to ship back on March 8. The bottlenecks are not limited to labor and bandwidth at the shops. Shipping, outside parts and labor are a significant part of the problem and entirely outside of the control of the shop. -dan The bottle necks are quite varied. At the moment we’re awaiting the arrival of the special tool from Continental for the crankshaft AD, it’s been more than two weeks so far. I’ve got my fourth engine done with the tool I built myself. Quote
T. Peterson Posted March 1, 2023 Report Posted March 1, 2023 8 hours ago, ArtVandelay said: A teenager can handle sending a text like: “annual inspection phase completed, we’ve ordered parts for the squawks sent previously by email, but they are back ordered and expected delay of 3 weeks”. That’s all you need. Run a credit card, online searching of parts, status updates, etc. it’s not rocket science. And all of this will allow the AP to focus on working on the planes. That’s a very good idea for communicating updates unsolicited by the customer. But for communication originating from the customer the teen may not have the technical knowledge to satisfy the customer. However communicating regular updates may eliminate many of the customer queries. Quote
ilovecornfields Posted March 2, 2023 Report Posted March 2, 2023 I’d say a month is pretty good for that place. My pre buy/annual at that particular shop in Texas took over a month, cost over $10k, and then cost me an additional $5k to correct the things that were missed or done incorrectly (including setting the prop RPM incorrectly and setting the fuel flow wrong so my engine started to overheat). I won’t go into details again because I’ve done that here before and all the True Believers called me a liar but I will reiterate that there is real harm in putting places like that up on a pedestal because they’re only as good as their worst mechanic and customer service rep. Having superior knowledge and inferior supervision doesn’t result in good outcomes. Every shop has unexpected delays and makes mistakes but how they deal with these issues is what differentiates the good ones from the bad. I hope you get your plane and wallet back reasonably intact and in a timely manner. 3 Quote
GeeBee Posted March 2, 2023 Report Posted March 2, 2023 I have found a little understanding and help goes a long way with shops. I have done parts runs for shops. I have driven several hundred miles to expedite parts for my airplane. I have offered to buy new vs waiting for overhaul facilities. I have swept shop floors and done clean ups after other airplanes to get my airplane moving faster. In short, ask "how can I be a part of the solution" and if you don't know, ask....you might be surprised at the answer. Equally so, when I make a run to say Aircraft Spruce, I ask the shops on my field if I can pick up anything for them that day to expedite their work. Don't be a customer, be a partner. There are too few GA shops and mechanics not to take that view. 6 Quote
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