Landing power reduction

[Bigdaddie]

I have a M20K 231.  I have been playing with landing configuration such as landing with 2/3 flaps and such to improve my landings (it doesn't help that my day job is flying an Airbus A350, a little different sight picture)!  When does everyone reduce the power to idle on a normal landing (no extreme winds or crazy conditions)?  I want to pull power over the airport boundary, but the sink rate increase makes me very uncomfortable.  I tend to pull the power just prior to the numbers but I feel like I have too much energy in the flare even though I get the stall warning prior to touchdown.  I rarely bounce and feel like touchdown is at a fairly high elevator defection.  It's just the short delay between main and nose gear touchdown that gets my attention.

I am a low time Mooney pilot and did get a checkout prior to flying the airplane.  It seems like the more I fly it the worse my landings are.  I just want to be safe and thus consulting you Mooney EXPERTS.  BTW, I am not totally unexperienced as I am a CFII, MEI, ATP with about 15,000 hrs of flight time.  As I say, I'm only a little smarter than the next guy because I admit my limitations.

Thanks everyone.  The support on this forum is awesome and I am proud to be part of the Mooney community. 

[KSMooniac]

Don Kaye sells a Mooney landing video that might help you. He's perhaps the most experienced Mooney instructor on the planet if I had to guess. I'm not a CFI and don't feel qualified to offer any advice on how I do it. Some landings are better than others with me!

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

[A64Pilot]

It’s all about speed management, meaning you can land with significant power if the speed is down, or come to idle abeam point of intended touchdown on downwind, both work depending on altitude and speed

Lately I’ve for some reason becoming more of a power to idle in the flare, I’ll be carrying 1500 until then as I have a 1500 to 2000 yellow arc. 

I think carrying some power and coming in slower helps if your trying to spot land, like short field for instance

[hubcap]

How fast do you try to cross the numbers?  

[Hank]

It's all about your airspeed. What works for my C will be different than your K.

I fly downwind with Takeoff Flaps at 90 mph; drop gear and slightly reduce power abeam my intended point of landing; when the runway is 45° behind me, I turn bass, still at 90 / Takeoff Flaps; roll wings level on final at 85 mph, and slownto 75 - 5 mohnfor every 300 lbs I am below gross for that landing.

When I know I have the runway made, throttle to idle.

Adjust throttle, yoke and sometimes Flaps on final as needed to stay at my desired, slowing speed and on glideslope.

This may work for you in knots instead of mph. The best thing to do is visit Don Kaye's website and order his landing video. @donkaye has been there, done that, in almost ever Mooney model.

Happy flying on your days off from flying!!

[Ragsf15e]

12 minutes ago, Bigdaddie said:

I have a M20K 231.  I have been playing with landing configuration such as landing with 2/3 flaps and such to improve my landings (it doesn't help that my day job is flying an Airbus A350, a little different sight picture)!  When does everyone reduce the power to idle on a normal landing (no extreme winds or crazy conditions)?  I want to pull power over the airport boundary, but the sink rate increase makes me very uncomfortable.  I tend to pull the power just prior to the numbers but I feel like I have too much energy in the flare even though I get the stall warning prior to touchdown.  I rarely bounce and feel like touchdown is at a fairly high elevator defection.  It's just the short delay between main and nose gear touchdown that gets my attention.

I am a low time Mooney pilot and did get a checkout prior to flying the airplane.  It seems like the more I fly it the worse my landings are.  I just want to be safe and thus consulting you Mooney EXPERTS.  BTW, I am not totally unexperienced as I am a CFII, MEI, ATP with about 15,000 hrs of flight time.  As I say, I'm only a little smarter than the next guy because I admit my limitations.

Thanks everyone.  The support on this forum is awesome and I am proud to be part of the Mooney community. 

As @hubcap is getting at, final approach speed is key.  You can/should adjust it a few knots for weight as well.  If you’re practicing alone with half tanks, you’re probably fast which leads to that feeling of too much energy in the flare.

I will tell you that it’s pretty hard to “hold off” the nose wheel very long in a Mooney.  It does depend somewhat on how it’s loaded, but even with a relatively aft cg, the nose wheel is going to come down not too long after the mains.  It can still be smooth…

I have similar experience to you and I pull my power to idle about where you described for similar reasons.  If speed is proper, she won’t float long.

[Bigdaddie]

10 minutes ago, hubcap said:

How fast do you try to cross the numbers?  

I use 85mph (75kts) for approach (I usually have full fuel since there are no services at my airport) and start to slow over the airport boundry which is about 1,000' from my proposed touchdown point.  I guess my question is: at idle power and on speed -85mph- is the sink rate easily arrested with the exchange of speed?  My airplane sinks like a rock at idle and full flaps.  I think my best landings have been at 3/4 flaps and a slow power reduction over the numbers BUT with a significant increase in runway used.

[PT20J]

From your description, it sounds like your landings are fine except that the nosewheel comes down faster than you expect. This is likely more about the Mooney landing gear design than anything you are doing.

First, the Mooney gear is short which puts the wing deeper into ground effect than most other airplanes. Ground effect changes the induced angle of attack which has the effect of increasing lift and decreasing drag just as you are trying to slow down and come down. This protracts the flare maneuver.

Second, the main wheel axels are farther aft of the CG than on many airplanes. The main spar to which the gear is attached is farther aft due to the location of the maximum thickness of a laminar flow airfoil, and the truss structure of the gear and the fact that it is a trailing link design also contribute to the aft location. In the flare, just before touchdown, there is a pitch up moment that is the tail down force times the distance from the tail to the CG, and this moment balances the pitch down moment of the rest of the airplane (mainly the wing). At the instant of touchdown, the moment arm to the tail shortens from the CG to the main gear, but the tail down force is the same. This reduces the pitch up moment and causes a pitch down often onto the nosewheel.

The third effect is that the rubber puck suspension is pretty stiff and amplifies the jolt when the nosewheel touches down.

The smoothest landings will be made when the elevator is moving up at the moment of touchdown which tends to counteract the pitch down moment at touchdown. Acceptable landings can be made holding the pitch constant at the moment of touchdown, and sometimes it is possible to soften the nosewheel touchdown by adding back pressure just as the mains touch, but I find more often than not I tend to overdo this and sometimes lift off again. If the airplane is slow enough, you can carry a little power into the flare and smoothly reduce it as you pitch up and this tends to cause a landing with the elevator coming up at touchdown.

Last point. I personally can land short, or I can land smoothly. If I do both, it was mostly luck.

Skip

[LANCECASPER]

18 minutes ago, Bigdaddie said:

I use 85mph (75kts) for approach (I usually have full fuel since there are no services at my airport) and start to slow over the airport boundry which is about 1,000' from my proposed touchdown point.  I guess my question is: at idle power and on speed -85mph- is the sink rate easily arrested with the exchange of speed?  My airplane sinks like a rock at idle and full flaps.  I think my best landings have been at 3/4 flaps and a slow power reduction over the numbers BUT with a significant increase in runway used.

Do you have a two blade or 3 blade prop on your K?

[Bigdaddie]

12 minutes ago, PT20J said:

From your description, it sounds like your landings are fine except that the nosewheel comes down faster than you expect. This is likely more about the Mooney landing gear design than anything you are doing.

First, the Mooney gear is short which puts the wing deeper into ground effect than most other airplanes. Ground effect changes the induced angle of attack which has the effect of increasing lift and decreasing drag just as you are trying to slow down and come down. This protracts the flare maneuver.

Second, the main wheel axels are farther aft of the CG than on many airplanes. The main spar to which the gear is attached is farther aft due to the location of the maximum thickness of a laminar flow airfoil, and the truss structure of the gear and the fact that it is a trailing link design also contribute to the aft location. In the flare, just before touchdown, there is a pitch up moment that is the tail down force times the distance from the tail to the CG, and this moment balances the pitch down moment of the rest of the airplane (mainly the wing). At the instant of touchdown, the moment arm to the tail shortens from the CG to the main gear, but the tail down force is the same. This reduces the pitch up moment and causes a pitch down often onto the nosewheel.

The third effect is that the rubber puck suspension is pretty stiff and amplifies the jolt when the nosewheel touches down.

The smoothest landings will be made when the elevator is moving up at the moment of touchdown which tends to counteract the pitch down moment at touchdown. Acceptable landings can be made holding the pitch constant at the moment of touchdown, and sometimes it is possible to soften the nosewheel touchdown by adding back pressure just as the mains touch, but I find more often than not I tend to overdo this and sometimes lift off again. If the airplane is slow enough, you can carry a little power into the flare and smoothly reduce it as you pitch up and this tends to cause a landing with the elevator coming up at touchdown.

Last point. I personally can land short, or I can land smoothly. If I do both, it was mostly luck.

Skip

Thanks Skip,

You just made me feel better about my landings.  I spent many years of instructing teaching these same principals. Now I'm thinking "have I just lost my piloting skills?"  Yea I can do the same: get off at mid field on our 3,200' runway with a thump or roll to the end with a mild tap.  I prefer the latter.

[Bigdaddie]

8 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Do you have a two blade or 3 blade prop on your K?

3 blade Hartzell.

[N201MKTurbo]

I have always used full flaps. They don't do much except change the deck angle of the airplane. If you want to land with the nosewheel up in the air, use zero flaps. You can use pretty much all the same speeds, but you will have a much higher pitch attitude. I always put the gear and flaps down when turning downwind. I tend to fly short patterns with relatively steep approaches. If you drag it in, you will use a lot of runway. I usually reduce power to the top of the yellow on the tach when turning base. This is too much power, but if you reduce it more you will be in the yellow and I don't like to operate there (too many (2) cracked cases). Its a 201 thing, so it doesn't apply to you. I usually pull the power to idle about 1/8 mile from the numbers. Of course the wind can change all. I always land with the trim full up. It is hard to land smoothly otherwise. (bring on the flames). I can do go arounds all day long in that configuration.

[LANCECASPER]

8 minutes ago, Bigdaddie said:

3 blade Hartzell.

That's what I figured. With the 2 blade on the K you won't notice it dropping like a rock when you chop power nearly as much as you will with the 3 blade. (I had a 231 with a 2 blade and an Encore with a 2 blade). I would wait til over the runway before you chop power.

I noticed this same thing in transitioning from a Bravo (3 blade MacCauley - more of a flat blade) to an Acclaim (3 blade Hartzell Top Prop - scimitar blade). It felt like I lost the engine on short final when i pulled back power on the claim. 

[Bigdaddie]

1 minute ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I have always used full flaps. They don't do much except change the deck angle of the airplane. If you want to land with the nosewheel up in the air, use zero flaps. You can use pretty much all the same speeds, but you will have a much higher pitch attitude. I always put the gear and flaps down when turning downwind. I tend to fly short patterns with relatively steep approaches. If you drag it in, you will use a lot of runway. I usually reduce power to the top of the yellow on the tach when turning base. This is too much power, but if you reduce it more you will be in the yellow and I don't like to operate there (too many (2) cracked cases). Its a 201 thing, so it doesn't apply to you. I usually pull the power to idle about 1/8 mile from the numbers. Of course the wind can change all. I always land with the trim full up. It is hard to land smoothly otherwise. (bring on the flames). I can do go arounds all day long in that configuration.

I have never been a fan of trimming in the flare, but I may change my ways in this airplane.  It's probably because I'm becoming a weak old man!

[Fly Boomer]

6 minutes ago, Bigdaddie said:

It's probably because I'm becoming a weak old man!

You said the magic words!  You are now officially inducted into the club.  

[N201MKTurbo]

13 minutes ago, Bigdaddie said:

I have never been a fan of trimming in the flare, but I may change my ways in this airplane.  It's probably because I'm becoming a weak old man!

I don't trim in the flare. I trim nose up when I turn final. It takes a little forward pressure, but not much.

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, Bigdaddie said:

I have a M20K 231.  I have been playing with landing configuration such as landing with 2/3 flaps and such to improve my landings (it doesn't help that my day job is flying an Airbus A350, a little different sight picture)!  When does everyone reduce the power to idle on a normal landing (no extreme winds or crazy conditions)?  I want to pull power over the airport boundary, but the sink rate increase makes me very uncomfortable.  I tend to pull the power just prior to the numbers but I feel like I have too much energy in the flare even though I get the stall warning prior to touchdown.  I rarely bounce and feel like touchdown is at a fairly high elevator defection.  It's just the short delay between main and nose gear touchdown that gets my attention.

I am a low time Mooney pilot and did get a checkout prior to flying the airplane.  It seems like the more I fly it the worse my landings are.  I just want to be safe and thus consulting you Mooney EXPERTS.  BTW, I am not totally unexperienced as I am a CFII, MEI, ATP with about 15,000 hrs of flight time.  As I say, I'm only a little smarter than the next guy because I admit my limitations.

Thanks everyone.  The support on this forum is awesome and I am proud to be part of the Mooney community. 

As you have probably already discovered, flaps create a fairly dramatic pitch down and, for many, full nose up trim at touchdown helps compensate.  As @N201MKTurbo said above, less flaps means less trim.  Many options between those two extremes.

[Bigdaddie]

14 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I don't trim in the flare. I trim nose up when I turn final. It takes a little forward pressure, but not much.

By having the trimmable horizontal stabilizer, you get much more elevator authority with trim. I just worry about go around elevator forces which should not be an issue IF you're paying close attention.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I fly short final at 80mph and normally chop power a couple hundred feet before crossing the numbers,  this allows me to descend and slow so I avoid coming in with too much energy.  Difficulty holding the nose off I think is just a characteristic of the Mooney.  If I really try I can only keep the nose off the ground for a second or two before I run out of elevator so I wouldn’t worry about that other than setting it down as gently as possible.  

[Bigdaddie]

1 minute ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I fly short final at 80mph and normally chop power a couple hundred feet before crossing the numbers,  this allows me to descend and slow so I avoid coming in with too much energy.  Difficulty holding the nose off I think is just a characteristic of the Mooney.  If I really try I can only keep the nose off the ground for a second or two before I run out of elevator so I wouldn’t worry about that other than setting it down as gently as possible.  

You guys are way too kind to explain my less than perfect landings.  The Mooney community is awesome and I'm glad I joined the Mooney family. 

[joepilotmooney]

I always use full flaps on landings, even in strong gusty x-winds (in our J). Unless I am way too fast, I carry just a bit of power to the roundout, (like 12 inches?  I don't really look!) then flare and right around a few feet above the ground power to idle, and hope to hear the stall horn (unless gusty). So, sounds like yer pulling power too early...

I would definitely recommend against using anything less than full flaps, since you want the lowest stall speed.

[N201MKTurbo]

7 minutes ago, Bigdaddie said:

By having the trimmable horizontal stabilizer, you get much more elevator authority with trim. I just worry about go around elevator forces which should not be an issue IF you're paying close attention.

If I go around, I go to half power to arrest the descent, then trim to takeoff, then go to full power and put the wheels up with a positive rate. It all takes about 5 seconds. On a touch and go, I roll the trim a few turns forward, then go to takeoff power, then trim to takeoff trim. 

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, Bigdaddie said:

Thanks Skip,

You just made me feel better about my landings.  I spent many years of instructing teaching these same principals. Now I'm thinking "have I just lost my piloting skills?"  Yea I can do the same: get off at mid field on our 3,200' runway with a thump or roll to the end with a mild tap.  I prefer the latter.

You’ll get it. And at least it doesn’t call you a “retard” every time you land 

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, Bigdaddie said:

I use 85mph (75kts) for approach (I usually have full fuel since there are no services at my airport) and start to slow over the airport boundry which is about 1,000' from my proposed touchdown point.  I guess my question is: at idle power and on speed -85mph- is the sink rate easily arrested with the exchange of speed?  My airplane sinks like a rock at idle and full flaps.  I think my best landings have been at 3/4 flaps and a slow power reduction over the numbers BUT with a significant increase in runway used.

That’s odd to me as I fly the same airframe (certainly a bit lighter) and I have to get pretty slow to induce a high sink rate.  In the pattern if I’m alone, I often practice pulling power abeam the numbers and usually have adequate energy to flare without touching the throttle. I almost always land full flaps. I would practice landing in all configurations until you find what you like.

[IFLYIFR]

In addition to all of the great suggestions above, you should read the article “Why We Can’t Land” by Wayne Fischer. It is by far the best description of how to land a Mooney. I found it by Googling but I think it is also on Don Kaye’s website.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk