Would we need a STC for unleaded fuel?

[hypertech]

I was looking at the type certificate and noticed that under fuel it says:

"Fuel 100LL or 100 minimum grade aviation gasoline"

 

So, now I'm thinking that as soon as GAMI or whoever offers something that is "aviation gasoline", are we good to go here as long as it is 100 octane?  

[EricJ]

9 minutes ago, hypertech said:

I was looking at the type certificate and noticed that under fuel it says:

"Fuel 100LL or 100 minimum grade aviation gasoline

So, now I'm thinking that as soon as GAMI or whoever offers something that is "aviation gasoline", are we good to go here as long as it is 100 octane?  

That would meet that TCDS, yes, so no STC would be required.    

[carusoam]

Verify with Gami first… Or Mooney Engineering department….

Because the M20R POH lists both 100LL and 100 octane fuel…

But, when they wrote the POH… they never heard of Gami… or their fuel.

Chances are… everything will be fine.

Our engines are not unique…

Our tank sealants are not unique…

Our fuel system seals probably aren’t unique either….

 

So…. The octane rating is important for how the engine runs under high power…

But, it says nothing about how the fuel does or doesn’t get absorbed by all the rubber parts used in the various systems from fuel caps, and water separator, to the fuel pumps…

If the magic fuel absorbs into the rubber parts… the rubber parts swell until they become oversized…. Oversized seals stop working as seals….

Anyone want to be first?

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

It seems good to me, but the government? Who knows if rules matter any more.

[toto]

I don't remember exactly what George Braly said on the subject, but it may be that the GAMI folks are pushing for the STC as an additional product validation from a respected source to counter the inevitable lawsuits down the road.  Having a fleetwide STC gives at least the appearance of an official approval.

[Will.iam]

So if whom ever lost a lawsuit always had to pay the bill for both parties, would make you think twice about suing and i would think stop the frivolous lawsuits going on today. 

[toto]

8 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

So if whom ever lost a lawsuit always had to pay the bill for both parties, would make you think twice about suing and i would think stop the frivolous lawsuits going on today. 

The system for attorney’s fees we have in the US is called the “American Rule” - it's not widely followed outside the US, and it’s not uncontroversial.

 

[Will.iam]

It’s our mentally as of recent of all the ads for conveniencing the public you can get a big cash settlement. Out of all the countries i have visited we are the worse for it but england is coming up a fast second. Latest doozie is four people get into a small car and when in a round-a-bout slam on their brakes in front of an unsuspecting poor soul and when they get rear ended all 4 sue for pain and suffering. Saw it on their news one night when this was the third time these guys were in the court suing.  

[GeeBee]

The words "100 minimum grade aviation gasoline"  refers to the green ASTM D-910 approved aviation fuel. The GAMI fuel is referenced legally as G100UL, (G100ul-12-C is the precise wording of the STC) so yes, you need an STC to use G100UL.

[A64Pilot]

Well the Feds could accept the Gami fuel as a standard, just like they have done for all other aviation fuels that I know of.

Only fuel STC’s I’m aware of are for using a non aviation fuel in an aircraft.

However a manufacturer can Certify other fuels for their aircraft, the following is cut-n-pasted from the Thrush S2R-T34 TCDS as an example, of course they are going to need approval from the engine manufacturer too.

Thrush S2R series
Fuel Jet A, Jet B, JP-4, JP-5, Automotive Diesel Number 1D or 2D in accordance with ACL Service Bulletin Number 1344. (If jet fuel is not available, aviation gasoline, MIL-G-5572, all grades, may be used for a maximum of 150 hours between overhauls.) Automotive diesel fuel is approved only for agricultural application flights and only when the free air temperature is above:
+20oF for Grade No. 1D +40oF for Grade No. 2D
 

[GeeBee]

Here is another fuel STC

https://gami.com/g100ul/SE01966WI_AML-Amd1.pdf

[Pinecone]

G100UL is being approved via STC.  So yes, you will need an STC for it.

Swift UL94 is the same way.

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

G100UL is being approved via STC.  So yes, you will need an STC for it.

Swift UL94 is the same way.

Hmm, I find that to be an unconvincing argument.

G100UL is an aviation gasoline with a minimum grade of 100.  It meets the TCDS requirements that state, "100 minimum grade aviation gasoline."  Just because Braly WANTS you to buy an STC doesn't mean the TCDS no longer applies!

Swift UL94 does NOT.  It would need an STC.

[GeeBee]

To be an "aviation gasoline" it has to meet ASTM D-910 standard. GAMI has made no such application or claim. STC required.

 

[BravoWhiskey]

Lycoming has A service bulletin showing different fuels and their use with different engine models but still states airframe approval is necessary.  Not sure if Continental has similar but I would imagine they do.  

[RobertGary1]

9 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Hmm, I find that to be an unconvincing argument.

G100UL is an aviation gasoline with a minimum grade of 100.  It meets the TCDS requirements that state, "100 minimum grade aviation gasoline."  Just because Braly WANTS you to buy an STC doesn't mean the TCDS no longer applies!

Swift UL94 does NOT.  It would need an STC.

Do you mean it’s literally approved as meeting the ASTM standards required as aviation gasoline or you just mean in the colloquial sense it’s just gas used in aviation?

[EricJ]

While it is important to know what defines "aviation gasoline" is there a document somewhere that says it has to meet a particular ASTM standard?   ASTM is -a- standard, but that's all, it even comes with its own caveats that it isn't comprehensive and there might be other standards (which is true with most standards).   My TCDS doesn't mentioned ASTM, nor does my POH or SM.    My POH says to use "aviation-grade" gasoline.    Perhaps there's a reg somewhere that says ASTM defines "aviation gasoline" for the purposes of interpreting a TCDS or POH?    Absent anything like that, ASTM is just a relevant, but not required, standard.

There may not be a required standard at all, and the term "aviation gasoline" is perhaps just used to make the distinction with motor fuel (aka automotive fuel).

 

[MikeOH]

16 hours ago, GeeBee said:

To be an "aviation gasoline" it has to meet ASTM D-910 standard. GAMI has made no such application or claim. STC required.

 

Please provide a cite that requires "aviation gasoline" to meet ASTM D-910.

[MikeOH]

8 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Do you mean it’s literally approved as meeting the ASTM standards required as aviation gasoline or you just mean in the colloquial sense it’s just gas used in aviation?

I mean it in the exact sense that the TCDS does.

[Cruiser]

3 hours ago, EricJ said:

While it is important to know what defines "aviation gasoline" is there a document somewhere that says it has to meet a particular ASTM standard?   ASTM is -a- standard, but that's all, it even comes with its own caveats that it isn't comprehensive and there might be other standards (which is true with most standards).   My TCDS doesn't mentioned ASTM, nor does my POH or SM.    My POH says to use "aviation-grade" gasoline.    Perhaps there's a reg somewhere that says ASTM defines "aviation gasoline" for the purposes of interpreting a TCDS or POH?    Absent anything like that, ASTM is just a relevant, but not required, standard.

There may not be a required standard at all, and the term "aviation gasoline" is perhaps just used to make the distinction with motor fuel (aka automotive fuel).

 

does your POH specify a list of required placards? Is there one listed for fuel ? Something like 100/100LL ONLY ? 

 

[GeeBee]

"Grade" is an ASTM term. "Grade 100" is a term that refers to 100 octane fuel meeting the ASTM standard. AC20-24 outlines this consensus and requirements for phrasing within a TCDS.

The money line

(1) Accordingly, fuels identified by an ASTM, governmental or military specification, or other industry-based consensus organization specification, are considered to be identified in sufficient detail to be accepted by the FAA as fuel operating limitations on a TC, amended TC, STC, or ASTC.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-24D.pdf

 

 

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

"Grade" is an ASTM term. "Grade 100" is a term that refers to 100 octane fuel meeting the ASTM standard. AC20-24 outlines this consensus and requirements for phrasing within a TCDS.

The money line

(1) Accordingly, fuels identified by an ASTM, governmental or military specification, or other industry-based consensus organization specification, are considered to be identified in sufficient detail to be accepted by the FAA as fuel operating limitations on a TC, amended TC, STC, or ASTC.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-24D.pdf

 

 

Yes, as mentioned previously, ASTM is a relevant standard, but I've not seen anything saying it is required.   This doesn't say so, either.   This just says that ASTM standards are "accepted by the FAA", (notably not "approved", but "accepted"), when somebody wants to get a fuel or something relevant approved for a TC, STC, etc.   i.e., it is one way to get there, but not the only one, like mentioned in the beginning of the AC, which isn't regulatory.

 

 

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, Cruiser said:

does your POH specify a list of required placards? Is there one listed for fuel ? Something like 100/100LL ONLY ? 

 

Yes, just like the TCDS.    The indicated placard in the POH even says to use green or blue fuel.    So if somebody comes out with 100 octane "avgas" and dyes it green, according to the placard and the TCDS I'm good to go.   

 

[PT20J]

Here’s a good explanation.

 

Part 1

Part 2

 

[GeeBee]

12 hours ago, EricJ said:

Yes, just like the TCDS.    The indicated placard in the POH even says to use green or blue fuel.    So if somebody comes out with 100 octane "avgas" and dyes it green, according to the placard and the TCDS I'm good to go.   

 

I think you will find it says, "grade 100" or "100 grade minimum". In that case it has to be a ASTM spec fuel. The word, "grade" makes it so. Same with the term "100LL" or "100VL"