510 hour engine spike in metals. Opinion needed

[201Steve]

Seems odd. Any metal found in filter would almost assuredly also show up in oil sample. A mix up of the mix up? 
 

I don’t think Blackstone does filter element inspections but Avlabs does. Will also test for AMS# to determine metallurgy. 

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, Joe Larussa said:

I guess it’s still making some metal, just no where near as much as they thought.

They owe you a case of beer.  Or maybe switch to blackstone.

[Joe Larussa]

1 minute ago, Ragsf15e said:

They owe you a case of beer.  Or maybe switch to blackstone.

Lol! A little of my soul died inside over this.

[201Steve]

Just think how bad it is for the guy who got the good report that wasn’t so. 

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, 201Steve said:

Seems odd. Any metal found in filter would almost assuredly also show up in oil sample. A mix up of the mix up? 

I suspect oil analysis only tests metal particles below a certain size (or chemically oxidized).  If there are only large fragments of metal, it'll simply get caught in the filter

[ArtVandelay]

FWIW, I drain the oil thru a screen to also check for metal in oil.

[A64Pilot]

14 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I suspect oil analysis only tests metal particles below a certain size (or chemically oxidized).  If there are only large fragments of metal, it'll simply get caught in the filter

If it’s done the same way it is for the Army SOAP (spectroscopic oil analysis) a small amount of oil is put onto a carbon wheel that spins and the oil is burned and a spectroscopic analysis is done. Pretty sure the wheel is only used once, but it’s been 30 years so I forget things.

The remaining oil sample is filtered through what actually looks like a coffee filter and washed through with solvent, and the filter paper is viewed under magnification, if there are particles then they are analyzed. You can actually do a decent job of particle analysis yourself, a magnet of course determines ferrous metals and regular pool acid will eat aluminum away, bearing material can often be determined by color. sulphuric acid doesn’t dissolve copper very well either, so if it’s not magnetic and sulphuric acid doesn’t readily dissolve it, it’s likely bearing material. Black particles that are able to be crushed are usually carbon.

Dilute the acid of course

The oil lab was across the street from my hanger at Ft Hood Tx and they didn’t mind visitors, I think they liked showing off the tech.

The Army pretty much invented aviation oil analysis opening it’s first lab at at Ft. Rucker Al in 1961.

In my experience a good close inspection of the oil filter is more valuable than oil analysis.

Edited November 13, 2021 by A64Pilot

[igorbly]

On 11/11/2021 at 7:26 PM, 201Steve said:

I flew about 80 hours while making metal, following the guidance. It never stopped so I tore it down to find the Bain of the Lycomings existence, failed lifters and a ground cam. 

Our F has a similar story this year (not a mix-up on the samples for us, it seems). I found a few particles in the filter, reviewed the SB, kept flying. Blackstone noted elevated levels, said to keep retesting. At annual, they found quite a bit, pulled it apart, and said it's the lifters and/or followers. 

When you say the bane of Lycoming's existence, you mean this is the most common repair needed well before TBO?

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, igorbly said:

Our F has a similar story this year (not a mix-up on the samples for us, it seems). I found a few particles in the filter, reviewed the SB, kept flying. Blackstone noted elevated levels, said to keep retesting. At annual, they found quite a bit, pulled it apart, and said it's the lifters and/or followers. 

When you say the bane of Lycoming's existence, you mean this is the most common repair needed well before TBO?

It’s been pretty common.  Pitted lifters and the cam gets ground down.

[GeneralT001]

Not to hijack this thread....but - I'm just getting a Mooney - so where is/are the steps to check the oil? Is the oil changed every 50hrs? Is sending it in for analysis SOP?

Is changing the oil no different than changing it on a car/truck?

 

Forgive my ignorance

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, GeneralT001 said:

Not to hijack this thread....but - I'm just getting a Mooney - so where is/are the steps to check the oil? Is the oil changed every 50hrs? Is sending it in for analysis SOP?

Is changing the oil no different than changing it on a car/truck?

 

Forgive my ignorance

It’s not that hard, but there are a few differences (safety wire).  It’s well worth doing it under supervision of an A&P at least once, but yes, it’s maintenance that can legally be done by the owner.  As far as timeframe, there are lots of rules of thumb.  50 might be ok with an oil filter.  Some old ones just have a screen.  I’d say most people use 25-40 hours but that’s a guess.  You’ll make a mess the first time as the filter (likely you have one) is a bit tough to get to on the back of the engine.  You can use some thin/flexible angle aluminum to set up a sort of drain trough under the filter.  The new filter will need safety wire after proper torque.  Lots of opinions on oil too… if you’re somewhere warm, straight weight might work most of the time Aeroshell w100 is popular.  I live in a very cold place so I use Phillips xc20w-50 year round.  Make sure you use AD oil for normal operation, mineral oil is out there for break in.  Someone will be along to correct me, I’m no mechanic, so your free advice is worth…

[Hank]

General, sir, this is how I change the oil in my C. What model do you have?

 

[GeneralT001]

27 minutes ago, Hank said:

General, sir, this is how I change the oil in my C. What model do you have?

 

Hi,

This is the first plane I've owned. It is a Mooney M20J 201. I'm totally new to GA...but was spoiled with FE's my whole military career

[Utah20Gflyer]

2 hours ago, GeneralT001 said:

Not to hijack this thread....but - I'm just getting a Mooney - so where is/are the steps to check the oil? Is the oil changed every 50hrs? Is sending it in for analysis SOP?

Is changing the oil no different than changing it on a car/truck?

 

Forgive my ignorance

Personally I think the best way of determining the proper oil change interval is by looking at the oil analysis by the lab.  Are all the metrics for the oil in the proper range at 50 hours?  If yes continue with that interval.   If it isn't you need to shorten the interval so that it is.  Where that number is will depend on the individual plane and where and how it is operated.  The oil analysis gives you something objective to base the decision on rather than conjecture.  

Based on how cheap it is to do oil analysis I think it should be done at least once a year but I've been doing it every oil change. 

Other things to do to catch major pending problems in addition to oil analysis:

1. Cut open your filter at every oil change.

2. Remove and inspect the oil sump screen every year or two.   

3. Borescope cylinders anytime you remove spark plugs

4. Compression test at the annual

5. Review of engine monitor data

You are basically looking for any clues that something is coming apart before it actually happens.  Each item is a potential source of clues.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ragsf15e]

13 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

Personally I think the best way of determining the proper oil change interval is by looking at the oil analysis by the lab.  Are all the metrics for the oil in the proper range at 50 hours?  If yes continue with that interval.   If it isn't you need to shorten the interval so that it is.  Where that number is will depend on the individual plane and where and how it is operated.  The oil analysis gives you something objective to base the decision on rather than conjecture.  

Based on how cheap it is to do oil analysis I think it should be done at least once a year but I've been doing it every oil change. 

Other things to do to catch major pending problems in addition to oil analysis:

1. Cut open your filter at every oil change.

2. Remove and inspect the oil sump screen every year or two.   

3. Borescope cylinders anytime you remove spark plugs

4. Compression test at the annual

5. Review of engine monitor data

You are basically looking for any clues that something is coming apart before it actually happens.  Each item is a potential source of clues.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One thing besides hours is months.  If you fly 80 hours a year you might change at say 25 hours just so you don’t let oil sit in there too long.  Our engines build up some bad stuff from blowby and lead that should be flushed once in a while.  Typical suggestion is 3-4 months.  Many don’t fly enough to hit 50 hours in that time.  If you do, and oil samples are good, I agree 50 hours is probably fine.

[Marauder]

Not to hijack this thread....but - I'm just getting a Mooney - so where is/are the steps to check the oil? Is the oil changed every 50hrs? Is sending it in for analysis SOP?
Is changing the oil no different than changing it on a car/truck?
 
Forgive my ignorance

I have a oil analysis done at oil change time. There are companies out there that do the testing. Wear Check and Blackstone are two you hear the most about.

The kits are sold at most aircraft supply houses and they include a container for the sample and a return label for shipping it in. The tests are a nice way to track wear metals and also to see if you have contaminants being introduced (elevated silicon indicating a possible induction leak).

There are a lot of owners who don’t do the analysis but many of us OCD types like to get a sense of what may be going on in the engine.

If you change your own oil, it’s recommended that you pull the sample after letting the oil run for a few seconds. Hope this helps.


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