Idle for Seven Years - How Bad Will It Be?

[RoundTwo]

Here’s the set up…M20K went in for an annual in 2014 and never came out. Nothing major that I know of, but I’ll learn more in the near future.

How bad could it be? 

Is it even possible to come out of this not totally upside down?

Would you be tempted to give it a go, or run away as fast as you could?

Thanks,

R2

[toto]

I don't honestly think there's any aircraft that's totally off limits.  Get a good prebuy and locate any open manhole covers, then figure out whether your pain tolerance aligns with the soft spots.

For every 20h/year aircraft that requires a complete overhaul after purchase, there's another one that has been sitting in a barn for five years and needs only an oil topoff and it goes 1000 hours.

[Ragsf15e]

As long as you make sure there’s nothing unfixable (corroded spar can total one), you might be fine.  I’d go in expecting to pay for an engine overhaul and some new avionics or at least avionics work.  In this market you might still come out all right.

[carusoam]

If you give no numbers….

You can’t possibly go upside down….  
 

If you set no expectations…

You can’t possibly be disappointed….

 

If you keep both eyes open….   (This is where it gets tough)

You will know exactly how much it will cost…

 

If you set realistic goals…

It will be worth it…

 

If you are buying a complete mystery…

Expect to spend may amus before defining what needs to be done to meet your expectations…

 

Answer some questions…

1) What does it take to finish the annual that was stopped for some unknown reason…

2) What are the hours on the plane and engine?

3) Are you familiar with the costs of bringing an instrument panel up to par?

4) Are you familiar with the basic things like ADSB out and WAAS? Both are required lately…

 

Lets say you get this for free…

And… you find only worn out things…. Nothing corroded or broken….

Can you afford…

1) The yearly fixed costs…

2) The annual operating costs…

3) The training to get to your next level…

4) A top OH, a complete OH, a new prop…

 

Are you doing this hoping to save money somehow?

Want to see how this is working out from somebody else around here?  Find Gubni… I think he acquired an M20K somewhat recently that is getting plenty of work done to get it into AW condition…

 

Final question… what makes you want to take on such a colossal project?

 

This project will be great for somebody…   You could be that somebody…

People that do this kind of project often have two things… 

1) A stack of AMUs… that is easily depleted.

2) An A&P… the rating, or somebody that has the rating….

3) PPIs are everything… know what you are buying before you are stuck with it…. 

 

Bringing a Mooney up to modern standards… is a great project…

Bringing it up to new standards… is similar to buying a new plane… very expensive…

Let’s see…. If you spend 200amu to complete the project…. And it is valued at 201amu in today’s market…   Congratulations! You are not totally upside down…   
 

… until the economy changes, 100LL becomes unavailable, or some other natural disaster strikes… just before you need to sell it….

Interest rates aren’t going up until next year… according to today’s fed reserve chairman speech….

 

Ever fly a really high performance Mooney?  (M20Ks qualify for really high performance)
 

If you have… You already bought this project… and have found a really creative way of announcing the start of the upgrades!

Get ready for the M20K discussions….  What engine is it, theMB? Does it have an intercooler? How about its MP controller? How often do you use the mouse milk?

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…  ideas that just come to mind…

Best regards,

-a-

 

[RoundTwo]

49 minutes ago, carusoam said:

If you give no numbers….

You can’t possibly go upside down….  
 

If you set no expectations…

You can’t possibly be disappointed….

 

If you keep both eyes open….   (This is where it gets tough)

You will know exactly how much it will cost…

 

If you set realistic goals…

It will be worth it…

 

If you are buying a complete mystery…

Expect to spend may amus before defining what needs to be done to meet your expectations…

 

Answer some questions…

1) What does it take to finish the annual that was stopped for some unknown reason…

2) What are the hours on the plane and engine?

3) Are you familiar with the costs of bringing an instrument panel up to par?

4) Are you familiar with the basic things like ADSB out and WAAS? Both are required lately…

 

Lets say you get this for free…

And… you find only worn out things…. Nothing corroded or broken….

Can you afford…

1) The yearly fixed costs…

2) The annual operating costs…

3) The training to get to your next level…

4) A top OH, a complete OH, a new prop…

 

Are you doing this hoping to save money somehow?

Want to see how this is working out from somebody else around here?  Find Gubni… I think he acquired an M20K somewhat recently that is getting plenty of work done to get it into AW condition…

 

Final question… what makes you want to take on such a colossal project?

 

This project will be great for somebody…   You could be that somebody…

People that do this kind of project often have two things… 

1) A stack of AMUs… that is easily depleted.

2) An A&P… the rating, or somebody that has the rating….

3) PPIs are everything… know what you are buying before you are stuck with it…. 

 

Bringing a Mooney up to modern standards… is a great project…

Bringing it up to new standards… is similar to buying a new plane… very expensive…

Let’s see…. If you spend 200amu to complete the project…. And it is valued at 201amu in today’s market…   Congratulations! You are not totally upside down…   
 

… until the economy changes, 100LL becomes unavailable, or some other natural disaster strikes… just before you need to sell it….

Interest rates aren’t going up until next year… according to today’s fed reserve chairman speech….

 

Ever fly a really high performance Mooney?  (M20Ks qualify for really high performance)
 

If you have… You already bought this project… and have found a really creative way of announcing the start of the upgrades!

Get ready for the M20K discussions….  What engine is it, theMB? Does it have an intercooler? How about its MP controller? How often do you use the mouse milk?

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…  ideas that just come to mind…

Best regards,

-a-

 

All great points. Right now, I’m circling at 10,000’ looking and cogitating. As I peel back the layers, more details will expose themselves and the picture will become clearer.

Some knowns…

GB1 grrr

Fixed wastegate grrrrr

Major unknowns at this point - tank sealing and engine internals as well as usual hours and log reviews. As I said, 10,000’.

R2

Edited November 4, 2021 by RoundTwo

[carusoam]

Take it seriously…

Attack it one step at a time…

Formulate a plan….

Refine the plan…

 

Success or not…. All the effort isn’t lost…

The knowledge gained puts you in position to be successful the next time around…

You will know what everything costs…

And what you want and don’t want…

And if a big project fits your plan…

 

My first plane sat outside unused for a couple of years before I got it… I got pretty lucky…

Don’t spend all of your AMUs on the purchase…. Have that giant reserve to cover the unknowns….

The first year comes with additional expenses… 

1) Annual

2) Insurance bump, first year extra amu or so…

3) Transition Training, 10hrs or more…

4) Minimum solo hours…

 

Much of this is defined by your insurance company…

Talk with Parker if you haven’t an insurance guy…

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

17 hours ago, RoundTwo said:

All great points. Right now, I’m circling at 10,000’ looking and cogitating. As I peel back the layers, more details will expose themselves and the picture will become clearer.

Some knowns…

GB1 grrr

Fixed wastegate grrrrr

Major unknowns at this point - tank sealing and engine internals as well as usual hours and log reviews. As I said, 10,000’.

R2

I think if you’re expecting an airworthy engine that’s going to last more than a very short time, you’ll be sorely disappointed.

[TTaylor]

Some critical questions include where is it located and how was stored?   Southeast is high humidity and engine corrosion.  Near an ocean can add air-frame corrosion. Why did it never come out of annual?  Usually they are just left and go out of annual, not start one and never finish.  That is a red flag in itself. 

Good points have already been made.  Do you have the funds available to fix issues (easy 15 to 20 AMU) and rebuild an engine?  Then add at least basic ADS-B out?  Now you likely still have a panel from the 80's to upgrade.  

Does the price reflect this?  Paying for a already flying airplane starts to look more reasonable. 

[RoundTwo]

17 hours ago, TTaylor said:

Some critical questions include where is it located and how was stored?   Southeast is high humidity and engine corrosion.  Near an ocean can add air-frame corrosion. Why did it never come out of annual?  Usually they are just left and go out of annual, not start one and never finish.  That is a red flag in itself. 

Good points have already been made.  Do you have the funds available to fix issues (easy 15 to 20 AMU) and rebuild an engine?  Then add at least basic ADS-B out?  Now you likely still have a panel from the 80's to upgrade.  

Does the price reflect this?  Playing for a already flying airplane starts to look more reasonable. 

Thanks for the thoughts on this.

Log book review begins today.

It was decowled, tarped and parked inside an active hangar a long ways from the coast. No salty air here, so that’s ONE thing in my favor. 

R2

[TheAv8r]

I've gotten lucky in this arena having bought 2 airplanes that had long periods of sitting and both were in great mechanical shape, but a few thoughts from my past experiences:

• Lycoming & Continental have procedures for pickling an engine if it's going to be sitting - did they happen to do these?
• Was the oil drained out of the engine or has it just sat in it? If it still has oil, drain it and put in fresh oil before doing anything, starting, preoiling, anything.
• I'd strongly suggest pulling a cylinder and taking a look at the bottom end. Pay for the parts & gaskets to put the cylinder back on, but this is the best way to see if the camshaft is corroded, spalled, or has some other issue that would warrant an overhaul. We did this on my last Mooney since it had an engine from the 80s with 400 hours on it and had been sitting for 8 years, we were pleasantly surprised that the bottom end was in fantastic shape, but knowing was all the battle here.
• Check hoses/tubes, most of these are life limited and tend to just start rotting & failing as they sit. We ended up replacing 3/4 of them in the first 6 months.
• Be prepared to replace a fair number of the accessories that time has just eaten at. A lot of these are minor but they add up - new tires, replacement lights, new gaskets, etc.
• If everything looks good and you want to buy it, highly recommend using Camguard in the oil with the engine for the first little while. Our last Mooney had some surface corrosion on the innards of the engine, we cleaned it up by running Camguard + doing oil changes every 10 hours. Metals got less and less, then disappeared, oil analysis stabilized, and then we reduced to 25 hours and it happily ran great afterwards. Lycoming has an SB for what to do if there are metals in the filters, which is basically fly it, do oil changes at a shorter interval, and see what happens.
• EDIT: Also, if you do buy it, FLY the damn thing. Fly it hard those first few months. 10-15hrs/mo. What issues it has will start appearing, and running everything frequently will start getting the kinks out.

Edited November 5, 2021 by jacenbourne

[201er]

The real problem is the disagreement between buyer and seller on what idle time is worth. From a buyer perspective, you'd want it discounted with the assumption that the engine has corrosion and it's going to need work overall. From the seller's perspective, it was fine last it ran so it's worth every penny it was worth then because it hasn't been used since. This is a gap that's hard to bridge in the real world which is why most thoughtful buyers pass and some unknowing buyer takes a chance without really thinking it through. Some get lucky and some don't.

[RoundTwo]

8 hours ago, jacenbourne said:

I've gotten lucky in this arena having bought 2 airplanes that had long periods of sitting and both were in great mechanical shape, but a few thoughts from my past experiences:

• Lycoming & Continental have procedures for pickling an engine if it's going to be sitting - did they happen to do these?
• Was the oil drained out of the engine or has it just sat in it? If it still has oil, drain it and put in fresh oil before doing anything, starting, preoiling, anything.
• I'd strongly suggest pulling a cylinder and taking a look at the bottom end. Pay for the parts & gaskets to put the cylinder back on, but this is the best way to see if the camshaft is corroded, spalled, or has some other issue that would warrant an overhaul. We did this on my last Mooney since it had an engine from the 80s with 400 hours on it and had been sitting for 8 years, we were pleasantly surprised that the bottom end was in fantastic shape, but knowing was all the battle here.
• Check hoses/tubes, most of these are life limited and tend to just start rotting & failing as they sit. We ended up replacing 3/4 of them in the first 6 months.
• Be prepared to replace a fair number of the accessories that time has just eaten at. A lot of these are minor but they add up - new tires, replacement lights, new gaskets, etc.
• If everything looks good and you want to buy it, highly recommend using Camguard in the oil with the engine for the first little while. Our last Mooney had some surface corrosion on the innards of the engine, we cleaned it up by running Camguard + doing oil changes every 10 hours. Metals got less and less, then disappeared, oil analysis stabilized, and then we reduced to 25 hours and it happily ran great afterwards. Lycoming has an SB for what to do if there are metals in the filters, which is basically fly it, do oil changes at a shorter interval, and see what happens.
• EDIT: Also, if you do buy it, FLY the damn thing. Fly it hard those first few months. 10-15hrs/mo. What issues it has will start appearing, and running everything frequently will start getting the kinks out.

No pickling, no sump draining. Lots of risks to shoulder if going further. Risk/reward needs lots of consideration. 

R2

[RoundTwo]

6 hours ago, 201er said:

The real problem is the disagreement between buyer and seller on what idle time is worth. From a buyer perspective, you'd want it discounted with the assumption that the engine has corrosion and it's going to need work overall. From the seller's perspective, it was fine last it ran so it's worth every penny it was worth then because it hasn't been used since. This is a gap that's hard to bridge in the real world which is why most thoughtful buyers pass and some unknowing buyer takes a chance without really thinking it through. Some get lucky and some don't.

Totally agree. I’m hitting “PAUSE” on this one for the time being.

R2

[A64Pilot]

This is a airplane for an A&P, they can put a lot of sweat equity into it and have something.

Old cars, boats etc anyone can work on and restore, but a Certified aircraft requires an A&P for much of the work so be sure to factor in those costs when planning.

[231MJ]

My 231 was idle for 5 years while I was overseas.  I always meant to start it during trips home but it just did not happen.  When I finally got to it I made the mistake of turning the prop - there was a stuck valve and you can imagine the results.  Bent valve, indent of the top of the piston.  We could have just pulled that cylinder but decided to do a top overhaul - the engine had 800 hours so it was a reasonable time to do it.  The shame was when I parked the plane (in a hangar) it was running great, all compressions good.  I could have prevented this by properly preparing the engine.  Stupid, I know...

Be careful with the engine.

 

[RoundTwo]

2 minutes ago, 231MJ said:

My 231 was idle for 5 years while I was overseas.  I always meant to start it during trips home but it just did not happen.  When I finally got to it I made the mistake of turning the prop - there was a stuck valve and you can imagine the results.  Bent valve, indent of the top of the piston.  We could have just pulled that cylinder but decided to do a top overhaul - the engine had 800 hours so it was a reasonable time to do it.  The shame was when I parked the plane (in a hangar) it was running great, all compressions good.  I could have prevented this by properly preparing the engine.  Stupid, I know...

Be careful with the engine.

 

Roger that!

R2

[jaylw314]

I wouldn't write it off completely, but yes, a lot of caution is called for.

FWIW, my plane had a rebuilt motor put in in 2012, then sat for the next four years.  It only ran 12 hours in those 4 years (I suspect the previous owner had health problems and then sold it when it became more serious), the main differencing being it was kept in annual (it was also in New Mexico).  The only problems on borescoping cylinders was light wall corrosion, and the oil analyses started it out modestly high and stabilized after a year or so.

[Jsno]

I bought an M20F that had sat idle since 2017.  100 hrs on the engine and good compressions at that time.  It was an estate sale.  I thought that since it was in Phoenix it would be corrosion free.  Flying back it did not go any faster than 130MPH.  I was very disappointed.  I thought maybe fuel injectors or a rig issue.

I borescopes the engine and found a cracked exhaust valve.  So I thought that was the smoking gun.  Easy fix or so I thought.

I then spoke with DonMaxwell at Maxwell aviation in Texas.  He told me that nine times out of ten it would be a worn Camshaft.  I had just pulled the filter and found small particles of ferrous metal.  So today I pulled the cylinders and looked inside.  OMG!!!  The cam had heavy corrosion and some lobes were worn so bad that they could cut your finger if you touched them.  The tappets were spalding and worn so bad they were concave.  Don was spot on.  My valves were probably opening 1/2 resulting in low power.

I see many older Mooneys with low time on the engines.  BUYER BEWARE!   Even in a dry climate the oil has moisture and carbonic acid in it from the internal combustion process.  It evaporates and then condensates on the cooler steel parts, ie camshaft and tappets.  It only takes two days to start corroding.  

 

Long story short; if it has low hours it should be pickled per Lycoming Instruction letter.  If not, it is worth the time and expense to pull a cylinder and look inside before you buy.  That good deal is probably not so good.  

 

 

 

[jetdriven]

On a continental engine  you can pull all the lifters and inspect the cam and lifters both.