Single 10” G3X with Garmin EIS in a turbo

[81X]

Do any turbo drivers here have a single G3X 10” with the Garmin EIS?  For me in the 231, it’s critical to see the TIT, all CHTs and fuel flow in numerical format, all the time without toggling screens. In addition, I would really like to simultaneously see EGTs, but that’s not as critical. Anyone know if this is possible on a single 10” and have photos?  

Context- trying to plan upgrade paths to a JPI 900/930 or G3X for factory gauge replacement. 
 

[Z W]

Not a G3X, but on our G500TXi, you cannot do what you want.  It takes two taps to toggle the screen to see the CHTs and EGTs from the map display.  

I have heard there is a firmware update that addresses this problem by always displaying the highest CHT in numerical format on the main EIS display.  Dropping the plane in for the update is on my to-do list.  That would largely fix the issue.

I do find myself always having to tap over to the engine page to make sure the CHTs haven't crept up in cruise.  As you know I'm sure, sometimes they do, and you have to crack the cowl flaps a bit more.  I don't know that I need all the CHT's and EGT's all the time, but the highest one is important to keep an eye on.  I keep it under 380dF.

This is the one issue that makes me wish just a little bit that we'd replaced the old, failing JPI 930 with another JPI unit for full-time engine data display, although to be honest, tapping twice to check the engine data every so often really is not that big of a deal.

[PJClark]

G3X does the same thing with EIS, I believe. Or it certainly did when I had mine installed in 2019. I have a EDM900 primary for exactly this reason:  I flew a Cirrus for a bit before I bought my Rocket and twisting to the engine page all the time drove me batshit crazy. 

Now, as I've said elsewhere: IF a second G3X display is allowed to be backup for the primary, and if you therefore do NOT need a G5 as backup, then a 7" G3X  would be a great place to display the EIS data and costwise it would have been a wash for me in 2019 (ie, delete G5, add EIS and 7" G3X was approx same cost as EDM900 installed + G5 as backup)

this is what it looks like in an M20K panel (1986 252/Rocket)

[81X]

8 hours ago, PJClark said:

G3X does the same thing with EIS, I believe. Or it certainly did when I had mine installed in 2019. I have a EDM900 primary for exactly this reason:  I flew a Cirrus for a bit before I bought my Rocket and twisting to the engine page all the time drove me batshit crazy. 

Now, as I've said elsewhere: IF a second G3X display is allowed to be backup for the primary, and if you therefore do NOT need a G5 as backup, then a 7" G3X  would be a great place to display the EIS data and costwise it would have been a wash for me in 2019 (ie, delete G5, add EIS and 7" G3X was approx same cost as EDM900 installed + G5 as backup)

this is what it looks like in an M20K panel (1986 252/Rocket)

Thanks.  For some reason, I thought the G3X might be able to display it all on a single screen. Someone has got to have a turbo with a single 10” and EIS. 

[PJClark]

well, here is my theory:

since the EIS is going to replace all your primary engine instruments, I'd bet one wafer thin dollar that the EIS strip on the PFD will display all the PRIMARY indications. If you have a turbo, I bet it displays TIT.

Really I think the only thing you don't get is all the individual digital temp readings.  you get the graph, you see which is hottest CHT, you see the digital temp for that one. BUT, if you want to see all 6 EGTs and all 6 CHTs, twist the right knob to the engine page and whatever you don't see instantly there is another touch on the screen.

Correction-just touch the EIS strip on the display and you see all the temps..no knob twisting necessary!

you're right--somebody has done it...

[carusoam]

Lots of info, not a lot of space on one screen…

A quick look at PJ’s panel… there is a JPI screen showing what most Mooney owners want to see all the time…

So… if a second screen has back-up functions…. And displays engine data all the time…. The second screen may be the way to go…

Sure TITs are important… pretty much what the NA crowd uses EGT for…. Turbo health is important… but so is engine health…

NA Mooneys with the G1000 system… accidentally labeled the ship’s EGT gauge TIT…  there aren’t any Ovations with a turbine inlet… 

 

So… if you have to expand your search to include non-turbo planes…. You will be pretty safe looking at what NA Mooney pilots are using…

The EIS system still has strong competition from EI and JPI….  Just the EIS does more as a flight recorder…

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

[Unit74]

I retained my JPI with the G3X install. I simply did not want all the eggs in one basket. If you have a fully functioning JPI system, I say keep,it. You are gaining nothing by going EIS. 

[81X]

17 hours ago, Unit74 said:

I retained my JPI with the G3X install. I simply did not want all the eggs in one basket. If you have a fully functioning JPI system, I say keep,it. You are gaining nothing by going EIS. 

I would be gaining something- real estate on the panel by going EIS, but your point is good.  In addition, my JPI is the 830, so I’d need to upgrade to a 900/930 which is almost as much as the EIS. 
 

As old school as it is, I’d like to have space for a storm scope/strike finder, unless I can find an affordable WX500.  I’m not sure I could jam in a G3X, G5, JPI930 and a spherics display into the left panel.  
 

Many decent options, good problems to have!!  
 

 

 

[PJClark]

I'm virtually certain that your EDM830 probes are 100% reusable with an EDM900 or 930. I went EDM-900: wanted it close to the middle of the panel in my regular scan, and love it there.

My airplane came with a WX 500 that displayed on the then 530W. It's really cool having it display on map on the G3X as well as simultaneously on my GTN750.

if you look hard at my panel pic up above in this thread you'll see to the left of my G3X I have nothing at all above the ignition switch. There used to be 2 things there: a DAVTRON clock and my voltage/ammeter. You could probably put your Stormscope there if you retain the one you have.

[81X]

1 hour ago, PJClark said:

I'm virtually certain that your EDM830 probes are 100% reusable with an EDM900 or 930. I went EDM-900: wanted it close to the middle of the panel in my regular scan, and love it there.

My airplane came with a WX 500 that displayed on the then 530W. It's really cool having it display on map on the G3X as well as simultaneously on my GTN750.

if you look hard at my panel pic up above in this thread you'll see to the left of my G3X I have nothing at all above the ignition switch. There used to be 2 things there: a DAVTRON clock and my voltage/ammeter. You could probably put your Stormscope there if you retain the one you have.

Interesting.  Do you find the 900 big enough vs the 930?  

[kortopates]

Interesting.  Do you find the 900 big enough vs the 930?  

the 900 is the perfect size to put right next to the glass panel PFD/MFD. I have mine right next to my G500 and my backup glass attitude right above it and then the radio stack to right.
with the 930 and it’s larger size it’s going to end up being way off to side out of your scan view. it’s larger but doesn’t do anything the 900 does.
Reconsider putting in a stand-alone strike finder. Just wait till you can afford to put in a WX-500 integrated into your panel. The whole point of the glass panel is everything you need is in your glass panel. Having peripheral stuff beyond the dedicated engine monitor just downgrades the simplicity of panel IMO.


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[ArtVandelay]

Reconsider putting in a stand-alone strike finder. Just wait till you can afford to put in a WX-500 integrated into your panel. The whole point of the glass panel is everything you need is in your glass panel. Having peripheral stuff beyond the dedicated engine monitor just downgrades the simplicity of panel IMO.

I believe the WX-500 has been discontinued, so only option is to buy one used. It’s also pretty pricey, especially considering ADSB gives you both precipitation and lightning. Not real time of course but it’s not like you’re going to use it for storm penetration.

[kortopates]

I believe the WX-500 has been discontinued, so only option is to buy one used. It’s also pretty pricey, especially considering ADSB gives you both precipitation and lightning. Not real time of course but it’s not like you’re going to use it for storm penetration.

True, but ADS/B only gives cloud to ground strike data - which eliminates typical developing convection (cloud to cloud) unfortunately.

XM does provide cloud to cloud strikes though.

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[toto]

At the risk of a minor threadjack..  Since y'all seem pretty knowledgeable about these things..  Is it possible to upgrade an old WX-1000 Stormscope to a remote head unit without removing all of the expensive antenna stuff that takes all of the install effort?

(To avoid a major threadjack, let's say that you wanted to use a G3X for the remote display..)

[PJClark]

3 hours ago, 81X said:

Interesting.  Do you find the 900 big enough vs the 930?  

It's totally big enough, no problem at all. And it's right there in your FOV--see my panel pic above.

As @kortopates says, for a 930 you have to put it way over in front of the copilot. I have a completely blank space in front of the copilot, but I'd never put the engine instrument way over there.

Trust me the 900 is plenty big and if "fits" right where you need it.

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, toto said:

At the risk of a minor threadjack..  Since y'all seem pretty knowledgeable about these things..  Is it possible to upgrade an old WX-1000 Stormscope to a remote head unit without removing all of the expensive antenna stuff that takes all of the install effort?

(To avoid a major threadjack, let's say that you wanted to use a G3X for the remote display..)

I did exactly that, but its was two decades ago! Pretty sure its a different (smaller) antenna. The WX-500 is heading stabilized so gets additional inputs off the HSI heading info - I just can't remember now if the 1000 was also heading stabilized - so that may or may not be relevant. But after years of service one of the benefits is a new harness reliably connecting everthing up to reduce troubleshooting old wiring issues down the road. 

[Glen Davis]

On 8/30/2021 at 11:56 AM, PJClark said:

G3X does the same thing with EIS, I believe. Or it certainly did when I had mine installed in 2019. I have a EDM900 primary for exactly this reason:  I flew a Cirrus for a bit before I bought my Rocket and twisting to the engine page all the time drove me batshit crazy. 

Now, as I've said elsewhere: IF a second G3X display is allowed to be backup for the primary, and if you therefore do NOT need a G5 as backup, then a 7" G3X  would be a great place to display the EIS data and costwise it would have been a wash for me in 2019 (ie, delete G5, add EIS and 7" G3X was approx same cost as EDM900 installed + G5 as backup)

this is what it looks like in an M20K panel (1986 252/Rocket)

I envy the panel and got a kick out of the paper clip holder mounted on the yoke, circa 1970. 

[PJClark]

23 minutes ago, Glen Davis said:

I envy the panel and got a kick out of the paper clip holder mounted on the yoke, circa 1970. 

you know, I never notice that thing and suddenly I did last time I flew and thought "I gotta get that out of here". But postflight ritual took over and it's still there....

[81X]

Just now, kortopates said:

I did exactly that, but its was two decades ago! Pretty sure its a different (smaller) antenna. The WX-500 is heading stabilized so gets additional inputs off the HSI heading info - I just can't remember now if the 1000 was also heading stabilized - so that may or may not be relevant. But after years of service one of the benefits is a new harness reliably connecting everthing up to reduce troubleshooting old wiring issues down the road. 

Couldn’t agree more- new wiring is a big deal on these aging airframes.  

[jlunseth]

I can’t tell you about the G3, but I have a 930 and all those readouts and more are displayed on the 930 both graphically and as a number. The 930 can also display CDT and differential temp (the difference between CDT and Induction Air Temp). Whether you have an intercooler or not, CDT is a required temp in the 231, and if you have an intercooler you need differential temp to use the adjustment table that comes with the intercooler, to make your power settings. I don’t use that table, but you need it anyway, I believe, to comply with the STC for the intercooler.

The 930 fits very well on the pilot side, that is where mine is. That puts it in the pilot’s scan. I would not put it anywhere else. Here is a picture of it sitting just right of the six pack instruments. I wouldn’t put it anywhere else, it has saved my bacon sitting there instead of over on the co-pilot side. Sorry, I don’t have a pic of the right side panel, there was one in the albums but appears it was lost during the website conversion. That’s a little bit of the VSI just left of the 930, and a little bit of a GTN750Xi to the right. Ignore the %HP readout, the JPI is computing that as if the engine is operating ROP and it is not, it is LOP. Its at about 74% HP.

[jlunseth]

PS found the bigger picture. Here it is. This is before the GTN was added.

[PT20J]

The G3X EIS display has configuration options, but the installation manual doesn’t describe them in detail. You might ask Garmin support or a Garmin dealer that had installed one in a turbo.

Skip

[jlunseth]

It occurred to me there is an issue unique to the 231 if you intend the new instrument to be primary for the engine gauges, that is, you would be removing the factory gauges in favor of the new instrument. The 231 is unique among the turbo Mooneys as far as I know, in that it has a Compressor Discharge Temperature redline limitation. The redline is 280 dF. The reason for the limitation is to prevent overly hot induction air, which would cause detonation. The 231 is unique because it is the only turbo Mooney, at least that I can think of, that comes from the factory without an intercooler. Where you would see CDT approach or exceed redline is usually during a long climb or at cruise in high altitudes where cooling is poor. The intercooler will drop the induction temperature by somewhere between 75 to 125 dF, making CDT and Induction Air Temperature essentially irrelevant, the IAT will be so low that there is virtually no danger of exceeding the 280 dF limit. Not sure, but for that reason I don't think the intercooler-certified aircraft such as the 252 and on up have either a CDT or an IAT redline.

A 231 is required to have a CDT gauge that is certified, which means the redline has to be marked on it. This is true even if your particular aircraft has an aftermarket intercooler, because the CDT is part of the certification for the aircraft. One could probably go to a FSDO and get 337 approval to substitute an IAT readout for the CDT readout, but it is dubious whether they would allow a readout for induction air temperature to be removed altogether. 

To my point, if you intend to substitute an EIS of some kind as primary for your 231's instruments, either that EIS would need to be certified as primary for CDT and would be marked with the redline, or you would need to retain the factory CDT gauge. You should verify that the Garmin EIS can display CDT and is certified as primary for CDT. I raise the issue because I doubt it, most turbo aircraft are like the post-231 Mooneys, they don't have a CDT limitation because they were certified with at least one intercooler and therefore the instrument manufacturers don't put one in.

The JPI 930 is certified for CDT.

Other than the legal issue - that there needs to be an installed and primary CDT in the aircraft - induction air temperature is a non-issue if you have the intercooler. The IAT is never in danger of getting to the redline limit of 280 because the intercooler cools the induction air so well, but the requirement is nevertheless there.

[81X]

35 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

It occurred to me there is an issue unique to the 231 if you intend the new instrument to be primary for the engine gauges, that is, you would be removing the factory gauges in favor of the new instrument. The 231 is unique among the turbo Mooneys as far as I know, in that it has a Compressor Discharge Temperature redline limitation. The redline is 280 dF. The reason for the limitation is to prevent overly hot induction air, which would cause detonation. The 231 is unique because it is the only turbo Mooney, at least that I can think of, that comes from the factory without an intercooler. Where you would see CDT approach or exceed redline is usually during a long climb or at cruise in high altitudes where cooling is poor. The intercooler will drop the induction temperature by somewhere between 75 to 125 dF, making CDT and Induction Air Temperature essentially irrelevant, the IAT will be so low that there is virtually no danger of exceeding the 280 dF limit. Not sure, but for that reason I don't think the intercooler-certified aircraft such as the 252 and on up have either a CDT or an IAT redline.

A 231 is required to have a CDT gauge that is certified, which means the redline has to be marked on it. This is true even if your particular aircraft has an aftermarket intercooler, because the CDT is part of the certification for the aircraft. One could probably go to a FSDO and get 337 approval to substitute an IAT readout for the CDT readout, but it is dubious whether they would allow a readout for induction air temperature to be removed altogether. 

To my point, if you intend to substitute an EIS of some kind as primary for your 231's instruments, either that EIS would need to be certified as primary for CDT and would be marked with the redline, or you would need to retain the factory CDT gauge. You should verify that the Garmin EIS can display CDT and is certified as primary for CDT. I raise the issue because I doubt it, most turbo aircraft are like the post-231 Mooneys, they don't have a CDT limitation because they were certified with at least one intercooler and therefore the instrument manufacturers don't put one in.

The JPI 930 is certified for CDT.

Other than the legal issue - that there needs to be an installed and primary CDT in the aircraft - induction air temperature is a non-issue if you have the intercooler. The IAT is never in danger of getting to the redline limit of 280 because the intercooler cools the induction air so well, but the requirement is nevertheless there.

Great input on the CDT, I realize it is required on the 231 and didn’t think to ask Garmin if they support that- I would think yes but I will ask. 
 

While I have an intercooler, it is an older, airflow systems intercooler and doesn’t use differential temperature for power management like the Turboplus, it only uses OAT for power curve adjustment.  That said, I would love to see the differential to get a better understanding of the intercooler’s effectiveness in different environments.  

[jlunseth]

The 930 gives you CDT in a bar graph and with a number, which you can see in the photos above near the right side of the unit. It can also give you IAT (you have to order it that way), which you would see in a succession of numbers displayed near the bottom. There are quite a few numbers that are not in the graphics display that show up in that part, such as fuel USD, fuel remaining, etc. There are two modes of operation for that line. Either the unit will step through the numbers in a set sequence, and that would include such things as cylinder EGT's, CHT's, and on through IAT. Or you can manually step through, find a particular number, and pause the line display on that number. The unit does not directly display differential temp, but it displays CDT in the graphical part, and IAT in that line I described, and you do the math. CDT - IAT = DT.

As an aside, I have had the unit display CDTs over 280 on some occasions, typical would be a summer climb to the flight levels out west somewhere, perhaps fully loaded. I might get a redline warning somewhere around 17-19k during the climb. I ignore it. The IAT is well under CDT. CDT might be 290 and IAT might be 190. CDT is not to protect the turbo, but to protect the engine from hot induction air. TIT protects the turbo.  I don't see how the original GB engine without an intercooler could get above 17k except on cold days, you would definitely see that redline and it would be real.

The one number the JPI 930 does not display, which would be nice, is vacuum. I still have a vacuum gauge. All the rest are gone.

One sobering thought is that if you lose the alternator and must turn the Master off you have no engine readouts at all with the JPI not even the Remote Alert Display (RAD) will work. But the same would be true of all the electric factory gauges if you did not have the JPI. Whether an EIS with a battery backup would still display anything, I don't know, the unit would have to power the sensors from the backup source. However, if you are at cruise with a stable, known power setting, there is no cause for alarm. You leave the mixture and RPMs at the known good setting you were operating at and limit yourself to only reducing throttle if you touch it at all, that way the temps will all be the same or lower than what you had before the power went out. When you land you don't need full throttle, keep the throttle low. Emergency procedures I have only had to use once, but they got me and the aircraft home and unharmed.

The 930 is a very good unit. I find the LOP lean function less than useful in the 231, I just ignore it and use my own numbers. But the unit itself has been very durable and if there is any problem in your engine at all you will see it right away.

Also, figure out whether you want an EIS that works with CiES senders in case you want to install them someday. Much better than factory but a different signal to the EIS. The old JPIs can be converted, mine was. The newer ones might work with either factory senders or CiES. Same question for the Garmin EIS.