Saving an M20C after gear-up landing

[Sienicwi]

Hey. Recently a good friend purchased a gorgeous 1963 Mooney M20C. Brand new paint job, 500 hours left on the engine, brand new prop. After picking it up, after an exhausting flight across the country in turbulent weather he wrecked it in a gear-up landing. For a gear-up landing it's in relatively good shape but the mechanic he talked to thinks his insurance will probably just total it, and he is, understandably, very overwhelmed and distraught at the thought that the plane he's been pursuing for months and saving up for for years might be done after just getting it home. Does anyone have any insight as to how to help lower costs and save his plane? 

As far as we can tell, he needs the belly panels replaced, definitely needs a new prop (2 or 3 blade is fine), and potentially will need to overhaul the engine. Everything else seems to be okay, and neither wing was damaged. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Sienicwi
adding detail

[Sienicwi]

Alternatively, is anyone selling a cheap Mooney m20c that we might be able to put the prop and/or engine from? Or just a prop? 

[gsxrpilot]

How much is the plane insured for? If it's insured for $50K or less, it will most likely be totaled. If insured for over $50K it will probably get repaired. 

If it gets totaled by the insurance company, he will have the option to buy the wreck back from them. They will give him a check for the insured value and he will likely be able to buy it back for some figure less than that. 

This same thing happened to a friend of mine. The plane was insured for $50K. It was totaled by a gear up. He could have bought the plane back for $37K. That would have left him $13K to do the repairs. He calculated he'd have to add $11K to get it done. But he decided, rightly so, that if he took that $61K and added $10K to it, he could buy a much nicer Mooney. And that's what he did.

We talk about this all the time around here. Any Mooney needs to be insured for at least $60K or it will get totaled by a gear up landing.

[steingar]

It sucks, but the aircraft will still serve a vital function. Its parts will help keep the rest of us flying that much longer.

[jpindy]

I have a damaged M20C built in 1965 with a good engine, it can maybe your solution.

[Sienicwi]

13 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

How much is the plane insured for? If it's insured for $50K or less, it will most likely be totaled. If insured for over $50K it will probably get repaired. 

If it gets totaled by the insurance company, he will have the option to buy the wreck back from them. They will give him a check for the insured value and he will likely be able to buy it back for some figure less than that. 

This same thing happened to a friend of mine. The plane was insured for $50K. It was totaled by a gear up. He could have bought the plane back for $37K. That would have left him $13K to do the repairs. He calculated he'd have to add $11K to get it done. But he decided, rightly so, that if he took that $61K and added $10K to it, he could buy a much nicer Mooney. And that's what he did.

We talk about this all the time around here. Any Mooney needs to be insured for at least $60K or it will get totaled by a gear up landing.

It is insured for approximately $58,000. So it sounds like it could go either way, but because it's over $50k there is a good chance it will be repaired, which is fantastic to hear. 

However, regardless of if it does or not we should probably get higher coverage on the next one or up our coverage on this one. 

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Sienicwi

[Sienicwi]

2 hours ago, jpindy said:

I have a damaged M20C built in 1965 with a good engine, it can maybe your solution.

I'd love to get some more information from you! Can you send me a message?

[kortopates]

It will be totated for sure. I am not a broker nor an underwriter, but consider the economics. The geared up plane still has significant salvage value - typically 30-40% of their blue book value taking into accout engine time and avioinics etc. If you use Paul's exampke above where the insurance comapny wanted 37K for the salavage plane back, there is no way they'll repair it. The way they see it, the maximum they'll pay for repairs is the insured value minus the salavage value, since when they write the owner a check for the insured value they're doing so knowing their loss to the owner will be reduced by the salavge value. Gear up landings typically cost 40-60K to repair, so if the salvage value is say 25K, you'd need a minimum of 65 to probably more like 85K insured value to get it repaired. Not going to happen unless the salavage value is near nil. Plus they're aware estimated for damage never go down during the repair and often they'll be paying for more hidden damage after they get ito the repair so they proabbly want a 5-10% reserve buffer in their expected loss before authorizing a repair.

Plus their is still going to be cost for the owner, the insurance company will only pay for teardown and inspection of the engine and repacement of parts or fixing damage directly attributable to the gear up - the extra cost of overhaul would be on the owners nickel. Similarily, they'll only pay the portion for the prop based on how many hours/years remaining till TBO, the rest is considered betterment paid by the owner. Plus this is going to take months to fix. 

On the bright side, the insurance company will give him a check for the insured value and the owner can go airplane shopping again. 

[Sienicwi]

2 minutes ago, kortopates said:

It will be totated for sure. I am not a broker nor an underwriter, but consider the economics. The geared up plane still has significant salvage value - typically 30-40% of their blue book value taking into accout engine time and avioinics etc. If you use Paul's exampke above where the insurance comapny wanted 37K for the salavage plane back, there is no way they'll repair it. The way they see it, the maximum they'll pay for repairs is the insured value minus the salavage value, since when they write the owner a check for the insured value they're doing so knowing their loss to the owner will be reduced by the salavge value. Gear up landings typically cost 40-60K to repair, so if the salvage value is say 25K, you'd need a minimum of 65 to probably more like 85K insured value to get it repaired. Not going to happen unless the salavage value is near nil. Plus they're aware estimated for damage never go down during the repair and often they'll be paying for more hidden damage after they get ito the repair so they proabbly want a 5-10% reserve buffer in their expected loss before authorizing a repair.

Plus their is still going to be cost for the owner, the insurance company will only pay for teardown and inspection of the engine and repacement of parts or fixing damage directly attributable to the gear up - the extra cost of overhaul would be on the owners nickel. Similarily, they'll only pay the portion for the prop based on how many hours/years remaining till TBO, the rest is considered betterment paid by the owner. Plus this is going to take months to fix. 

On the bright side, the insurance company will give him a check for the insured value and the owner can go airplane shopping again. 

Thanks for sharing your information with me. I truly appreciate it, although I'm not certain I agree with your math. This is just based off research I've done and what I've heard, so if anything sounds blatantly incorrect please feel free to correct me.

First off, gear up landings are one of the most common types of accidents in GA, and if the plane were still worth 30-40% after a gear up, I suspect the recommended insurance coverage would be much higher. Even going by your logic, the mechanic we talked to said a salvage plane is typically worth 15%-20% of it's value. This makes more sense when you consider that both the engine and the prop need to be replaced and/or overhauled, which, based off of VREF and individual part pricing, would most likely subtract somewhere around the $40,000 from the value of the plane, and the belly panels- I found the full sheet metal for an M20C airframe for around $11,000, so as a rough estimate I'd say $2500-$3000. At approximately $43000 off the value of the plane, at full value the remaining pieces would be worth slightly more that 20%. 

The prop had 15 hours on it at prop strike, so betterment shouldn't be an issue there, and he knows that he will need to pay the difference between teardown/inspection and overhaul, which is fine. While I recognize that it may get totaled out, if it does that would be really sad. We've spent over six months comparing and shopping aircraft and attempting to get sellers to respond before finding a plane he really loved with a responsive seller and going through the process for this one. Either way, it's good he will still be able to get a plane, but this plane is something special so I'm really crossing my fingers that it works out and it's just able to get repaired, even though I know that will take some time.

One question I've had is if there is anywhere that compares mechanic rates? I know they vary, but since they are working they don't always answer the phone and I don't know how to figure out who offers the best value. If you have any insight on finding that that would be amazing. 

Again, thanks so much!

[kortopates]

1 minute ago, Sienicwi said:

Thanks for sharing your information with me. I truly appreciate it, although I'm not certain I agree with your math. This is just based off research I've done and what I've heard, so if anything sounds blatantly incorrect please feel free to correct me.

First off, gear up landings are one of the most common types of accidents in GA, and if the plane were still worth 30-40% after a gear up, I suspect the recommended insurance coverage would be much higher. Even going by your logic, the mechanic we talked to said a salvage plane is typically worth 15%-20% of it's value. This makes more sense when you consider that both the engine and the prop need to be replaced and/or overhauled, which, based off of VREF and individual part pricing, would most likely subtract somewhere around the $40,000 from the value of the plane, and the belly panels- I found the full sheet metal for an M20C airframe for around $11,000, so as a rough estimate I'd say $2500-$3000. At approximately $43000 off the value of the plane, at full value the remaining pieces would be worth slightly more that 20%. 

The prop had 15 hours on it at prop strike, so betterment shouldn't be an issue there, and he knows that he will need to pay the difference between teardown/inspection and overhaul, which is fine. While I recognize that it may get totaled out, if it does that would be really sad. We've spent over six months comparing and shopping aircraft and attempting to get sellers to respond before finding a plane he really loved with a responsive seller and going through the process for this one. Either way, it's good he will still be able to get a plane, but this plane is something special so I'm really crossing my fingers that it works out and it's just able to get repaired, even though I know that will take some time.

One question I've had is if there is anywhere that compares mechanic rates? I know they vary, but since they are working they don't always answer the phone and I don't know how to figure out who offers the best value. If you have any insight on finding that that would be amazing. 

Again, thanks so much!

Common place of this incident has nothing to do the cost of repairs. The vast majority of these are totalled. Did the aircraft really not have any avionics with value? The airframe parts are worth a lot more to a salvage company than you may be giving credit for. As an active instructor I've heard the details from a great many gear up's incidents over the years. The pilot is probably not yet aware of the worst concern facing him presently. He's going to find it very diffificult if not impossible to get insurance in the current market for at least the next 3 years - that includes liability insurance.  If the insurance did pay for the repair, at least he'll have till the insurance expires to start looking for a company that will insure him next year.

Labor rates are typically pretty consistent/competive within the area for the shop. For example, Texas is much cheaper (maybe 15-20%)  than where I am in Southern Calif. But with a gear up, unless a distant shop is very motivated to get the work by coming out to the plane and putting a prop on it to fly it to their shop its going to another non-insignificant cost added to the repair. But at this stage the best thing to do is send very detailed pictures of the damage to shops you have confidence in to do the repair to get estimates for the adjuster, including for them to pickup/ferry the aircraft to their shop. But you'll have the unlikliness of insurance paying for the repair going on in the mind of non-local shops before they put the resources into putting together a detailed repair estimate. 

[ArtVandelay]

Do insurance companies prorate the cost of the engine tear down, for example OP said engine had 500 hours left, so assuming 2000 TBO and $20,000 to overhaul it, I would expect them to cap the money for the tear down to $5000.

[A64Pilot]

I don’t believe the cost of the inspection varies on engine time, so the insurence company should pay the same for a new engine as for one past TBO.

I agree they will total it, it’s just simplier for them that way.

Edited May 14, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Guest]

I would expect the insurance company to pay for repairs up to the insured value less the deductible.  Sure they’re motivated to write it off to lower their losses, but they did insure it for $58K.  If the insured value won’t repair it, the owner may want to kick in the difference if he truly wants to save the plane.

Clarence

[chriscalandro]

Consider that the new owner may no longer be insurable. 

[MB65E]

Well, Don’t put in the claim then.

Repair the airplane yourself. But You’ll still have damage history. 
Good time to upgrade to a Top prop hartzell or an MT. Or Slap some new blades on the hub. I have a used set of gear doors I'm keeping for the If in life. 
Engine prop strike inspection is called out in a Lycoming SB. Overhaul and Splitting the case is NOT required. The Crank Bolt is the most significant part that needs to be replaced. Belly skins are flat easy to make skins. Belly Bulkhead formers can be replaced or straightened. 
It gets messy when the pitot tube punches a bigger hole in the wing and the flap hinges get worn down. 
 

But not having the insurance claim will save money over the long run. 

All that said, I’m thinking about liability only policy next year and Increasing it to 2.0m.

-Matt

[Jerry Pressley]

AD 2004 10 14

SHOWING COMPLETE ENGINE TEARDOWN NOT NECESSARY 

6. Assemble the gear to the crankshaft using both a new lockplate and bolt. Refer to Figure 6. The correct bolt, lockplate and dowel for each gear are shown in Table 2. Tighten the bolt to 125 in.-lbs. torque, then with a hammer and brass drift, tap lightly around the pilot flange of the gear and listen for sharp solid sounds from the hammer blows that would indicate that the gear is seated against the crankshaft. As a check on the seating against the crankshaft, attempt to insert a pointed .001 inch thick feeler gage or shim stock between the gear and crankshaft at each of the three scallops. The .001 feeler gage, or any smaller feeler gage, must NOT fit between the two surfaces at any location. (.001 feeler gage is used as an indicator, however, there must be no clearance between crankshaft and gear.) Retighten the gear attaching bolt to the proper torque. Tighten the 5/16 inch bolt to 204 in.-lbs. torque or the 1/2 inch bolt to 660 in.-lbs. torque. Measure the clearance between the O.D. of the gear flange and the pilot I.D. of the crankshaft. There should not be more than .0005 inch clearance at any point.
 
7. Bend the lockplate against the bolt head.
 
8. A logbook entry, specifying the final bolt torque, verifying that the lockplate was properly bent in place against the bolt head and that the inspections and rework required by Lycoming Service Bulletin No. 475C were accomplished, should be made and signed by an authorized inspection representative.

[David Lloyd]

The insurance will pay for repair for damage from the gear up landing or prop strike.  They not pay for a complete overhaul.  Prop, they bought me a blade and pro-rated the overhaul based on hours/years recommended by Hartzell. Seemed fair to me.

Per others, AD does not require a complete engine teardown.  The Lycoming SB does.  Several years ago, I had a prop strike and the two engine shops I spoke to would not do the AD without complying with the Lycoming SB.  The insurance adjuster had heard that before and approved the teardown without further discussion.  I went with the teardown.  The 450 hour cylinders came off and went back on without anything being done to them.  Case split, and all the parts inspected and it went together with all new bearings, gaskets, etc. Even two brand new mags a mandatory SB replacement item.  Insurance did there thing and paid removal, inspection, a bunch of AD parts, bearings, gaskets, mags, yada, yada, and reinstallation.  Actually, I did the removal and reinstallation, the insurance paid my 37 hours time.  Seemed fair to me.

But, had a few spalled lifters and worn cam. Neither me or the engine shop was going to put those back in.   I was on the hook for those, not the insurance.  So, if they open it up and find worn parts or damaged parts not do to the gear up be prepared to pay out of pocket.

When I decapitated the taxiway light with the prop, the head bounced off the wing before disappearing in trees a couple hundred yards away.  Left a big dent.  Repair and paint wound up a few hundred more than the quote.  Insurance said to document why and they paid it.

All in all, the insurance company was fair, almost generous, and easy to deal with.  Overall claim as about $25k.  The next renewal, the premium actually went down about 10%.  Go figure.  9 Years later the insurance market has changed, less hull on the Mooney compared to the RV and my premium has now doubled.  I don't think the increase is in any direct way the result of the old claim.

[Jerry Pressley]

Are you as an owner required to comply with SB or only with AD?  And an engine shop is not needed if you are only doing required prop strike AD.  Onl.yu an A&P 

My comment was for him in case he had to do the repairs. And if the damage was as slight as he says then the fairings on the belly are replaced with screws.  Mooney calls belly skins fairings since that is actually what they are.  Possibly a flap hinge cover unless the flaps were down in which a $700 flap will be necessay..I have....

[David Lloyd]

Yes, that's true, it is on the owner to make the decision on SB compliance.  But insurance is involved and I was told by either the broker or claims rep if I did not comply with the SB and a problem (like a broken crank or mag gear) cropped up later resulting in a claim, it may be denied.  

[Hair_Helmet]

We saved my ‘62 from the scrapyard last year, previous owner collapsed the gear with a forced crosswind landing.  Replaced the left wingtip skin/end rib, right flap, gear retraction tubes, crank gear, overhauled the prop, replaced lower cowl, nose gear doors, one belly skin, pitot tube, complied with AD’s.   My A&P/IA did the engine work/inspection, it was in his wheel house.  Problem was I went crazy with upgrades and spent a bunch.  It can certainly be done for less than 50k and have a great result.

I suppose we have to balance practical costs/value vs priceless flying time.  We end up paying it forward when the next owner gets a good deal.

[carusoam]

Let’s see...

1) Good to have insurance...   time to get the insurance company on the line...  take notes during the conversation...

2) Know what it is you want to do...   Fix or sell....

3) Good to have a Mooney familiar mechanic... use their guidance for what needs to be done...

4) Learn from previous errors... yours and everyone else’s...

5) Goofy errors are expected... we are human, we get tired, errors are harder to detect, especially when it’s our first time...

 

6) For best ways to handle or hold off on an insurance claim...  see if @parker has some insight...

7) Expect that you bought insurance for a reason... expect to use it...

8) Getting what you want... requires knowing what that is...

9) GU landings can be expensive...  you have a lot of work in front of you... but realistically, you might not be buying a second Mooney to repair a few belly panels on the one you have...

10) got any pics?

11) Is the plane back on its feet, in a safe place?

12) Do you have a preferred mechanic..?

13) Plan on some transition training to avoid round two... of the same old same old....

14) To get a feeling about GU landings and Mooneys... there are plenty of threads to be read around here... there isn’t anything new here...

15) Stay involved... parts of these discussions can get challenging...  very easy to mis-read what somebody said vs. what they meant...

The cool part...  somebody just proved how human they actually are...   

Its fun to be human!

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Sienicwi]

3 hours ago, carusoam said:

Let’s see...

1) Good to have insurance...   time to get the insurance company on the line...  take notes during the conversation...

2) Know what it is you want to do...   Fix or sell....

3) Good to have a Mooney familiar mechanic... use their guidance for what needs to be done...

4) Learn from previous errors... yours and everyone else’s...

5) Goofy errors are expected... we are human, we get tired, errors are harder to detect, especially when it’s our first time...

 

6) For best ways to handle or hold off on an insurance claim...  see if @parker has some insight...

7) Expect that you bought insurance for a reason... expect to use it...

8) Getting what you want... requires knowing what that is...

9) GU landings can be expensive...  you have a lot of work in front of you... but realistically, you might not be buying a second Mooney to repair a few belly panels on the one you have...

10) got any pics?

11) Is the plane back on its feet, in a safe place?

12) Do you have a preferred mechanic..?

13) Plan on some transition training to avoid round two... of the same old same old....

14) To get a feeling about GU landings and Mooneys... there are plenty of threads to be read around here... there isn’t anything new here...

15) Stay involved... parts of these discussions can get challenging...  very easy to mis-read what somebody said vs. what they meant...

The cool part...  somebody just proved how human they actually are...   

Its fun to be human!

Best regards,

-a-

 

I will do my best to answer what I can! 

1) noted

2) if possible we would like to fix it and keep it, but due to the fact he just purchased the plane, he does not have a lot of spare cash so if the insurance totals it he will probably have to just take the cash

3/12) I agree. We are located in Utah and are not familiar with mechanics in the area since this is the first plane he's owned. He is researching options, but if anyone has recommendations for good Mooney mechanics in the area, I'd love to get those. I have a couple recommendations so far, but having extra definitely can't hurt.

4/5) I agree. Unfortunately, that doesn't make the consequences feel any less overwhelming, and it can be easy to beat yourself up in the moment.

6) Fabulous, thank you.

7) Makes sense to me

9/14) Right, and the more I research the more I agree with this. The first mechanic he talked to told him to expect it to be totalled, but as I've priced out parts and looked at the most likely repairs that will be needed I think it should be feasible within his insurance policy limitations. I will definitely go through additional threads as well.

10) I have pictures from the original listing but not of the damage, although he does.

11) Yes, it is.

13) I'm sure he will. Good advice

15) Absolutely. I have gained so much valuable insight here already.

Thanks so much!

 

[carusoam]

@Sienicwi,
 

We have a few valuable resources for some of the parts you may be needing...

@Alan Fox has helped a few people with their Mooney parts...

@Jerry Pressley has helped a few people with their Mooney parts...

If you can get pictures of the damage, they can probably help you with getting replacements of the pre-flown variety...

And... if for some reason... the Mooney doesn’t fly again, Alan has ways to handle that as well...

PP thoughts only, expect this to improve with time....  

Best regards,

-a-

[Alan Fox]

I have a full set of belly skins , I have new , and used gear doors , and plenty of flap hinges , and fairings , flaps too , if you need them... Insurance will base a total off of a 30% return on salvage , Meaning that if the plane is insured for 58000 , they will write a check for up to 40600.00   Your plane is not totaled...12 K for a teardown , 12 k for a prop , 12 k for labor , and belly repairs ... You should be way under total , If by some miracle , you come in over 40.6 K , you can have them buy out their liability for the 40.6 K and be on your own... An old C will never bring   18 K at salvage auction , plus there are costs of storage , and transport , that the insurance will want to get out of.... I do this for a living , Just sit back , and see where you are at , If you get Close , People like me and Jerry , can supply the parts cheap enough , to save it ...   Good luck..  Also if you don't buy it back , at auction , I just might buy from the insurance auction , and rebuild it ...

[MBDiagMan]

I’m sure he feels sick about it and I have empathy, but I just wonder if he understands that he contributed to rising Mooney insurance rates? When I talked to my insurance person about the rapidly rising rates she said that there had been a rising number of gear up landings.  Since I am also a Mooney owner I get to share the cost of all the gear ups.