Best sub 72k model Mooney?

[Miami_Mooniac]

Ok Mooniacs,hear me out!

Originally I was hoping to get into a 65-67 C', for under 40k(which I know is hopeful considering most M20C's are between 40-70k)as a first mooney(and airplane in general) coming out of my PP certification.

I found an extremely low time hangar queen(original engine) that hadn't been flown in 6 years for a STEEP discount.. and obviously was intrigued for the low cost of entry. After calling a respectable Mooney service center(Daytona), found out that to bring her back to life and completely airworthy(without any avionics upgrades) would be about 40-50 AMU. That plus a bunch of time because most shops are backed up with work, makes me wonder quite a bit..

I did quite a bit of reading here on and the general consensus is to buy the best (flying and airworthy) airplane that you can for the money and be grateful for what you got. Better a high time airframe and high time engine that is flown regularly, than a low time, flew every once in a while kinda thing. Although I didn't want to acknowledge it, I DO KNOW as an A&P, airplanes are meant to be flying and have less problems while in the air.. Any ground time an aircraft has is time alloted to let things go awry..

I'm usually looking for deals but was recommended from Daytona to NOT buy a project as a first plane as that would not go well for me. He also recommended I go ahead and go for a M20J which he said is at the low end 70k(high end of my original M20C) and a better airframe overall with less problems and more parts available..

Now my head is spinning, was hoping below 40k(and complex), to about 70k(and higher as I have already seen) and high-performance rating. 

So now as I'm questioning the whole process,would love some input on your PROS & CONS for the best mooneys for under 72k(no need for crazy avionics btw)! And by best,I mean great balance of Fuel economy, Useful Load, access to maintenance and parts, range(in that order) and just a good solid aircraft to be relied upon overall for years to come. 

M20C?40-70k

M20J?70-100k

Is it really worth going to the basic end of a J instead of a well equipped C?

 

Now there's my backdrop,

So please,honest and thoroughly give me your $0.02 as I will HUMBLY receive your thoughts..

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME IN ADVANCE

-Michael Brian

 

 

[Andy95W]

Michael- a few questions:

1.) how much work are you willing to do yourself?

2.) you said you’re an A&P, do you know an IA who would be willing to work with you to sign 337s?

3.) do you have a hangar, tools, materials, and knowledge of GA piston airplanes to do the work yourself?

4.) how old are you? (That question is based upon how energetic you feel you are.  My desire to take on an airplane project at 35 years old was a lot more than I have now at 55.)

[1964-M20E]

JMHO

 

Pre J models in good flying condition you are in the ballpark $40 to $70 or $80k depending on condition and avionics.

J's usually more but again condition and avionics will determine a lot.

Yes buying a flying aircraft is much better than one that ahs been sitting. 

Buying a project is a good way to sell your time into the plane.  I always applaud someone willing to take on a project and get a lonely neglected plane back into the air.

 

 

[Hank]

Cs are great planes, and the O-360 is strong, reliable and parts are less than those on the IO series.

Prices on all GA planes are climbing steeply, not sure right now that you could get a flyable J in the double digits, likely 100+.

For ratings and endorsements, all Mooneys M20-M20J are complex; the K was the first >200 hp Mooney, which requires the High Performance endorsement. The Js and Pre-Js do not have "more than 200 hp" per the Regs, so only Complex endorsement is required, but they all fly like high performance planes from other brands. Mooneys really accelerate when you lower the nose . . . . like nobody's business.

Whichever plane you get, focus on condition and recency of flight--you want to minimize shop time at this point. I've been enjoying my C since 2007.

[Miami_Mooniac]

21 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Michael- a few questions:

1.) how much work are you willing to do yourself?

2.) you said you’re an A&P, do you know an IA who would be willing to work with you to sign 337s?

3.) do you have a hangar, tools, materials, and knowledge of GA piston airplanes to do the work yourself?

4.) how old are you? (That question is based upon how energetic you feel you are.  My desire to take on an airplane project at 35 years old was a lot more than I have now at 55.)

Hello there!

Better to clarify up front.

I have been 31 times around the sun.

I am willing to do most of the general maintenance needed to maintain the aircraft flying, although I have maybe 2 years of GA experience and that was more than 10 years ago.

I have general aviation tools(nothing specific, no cyl base wrenches) and no hangar to perform the maintenance. I still remember quite a bit from A&P school that knowledge should come back to me quite quickly after digging my head in a bit. 

And no, I do not currently have at the moment an IA to help sign 337's.

So in a nutshell, I would prefer for the aircraft to be flying currently, and I maintain and learn the Mooney way of maintenance as I get to know her better. 

Thanks in advance

-Michael Brian

[A64Pilot]

The real question is how much a month can you spend taking care of it, will an unexpected $10,000 bill kill you?

You may be better off, especially if you price insurence to buy a simple, non complex airplane first. It’s still flying and you can enjoy it too, a whole lot less to go wrong on a Cherokee 140 or so than a Mooney, and you can get a good one for the same money that will buy a basket case Mooney.

 

Also Miami Beach is not a good place to leave an airplane tied down outside

Edited May 6, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Miami_Mooniac]

Just now, Hank said:

Cs are great planes, and the O-360 is strong, reliable and parts are less than those on the IO series.

I KNOW!! That's why I was all Gung ho on getting me a C, until that phone call and recommendation.. I've read that they're quite reliable and dependable and avoid all the hot start problems of the IO's

Another vote for the C, woohoo!

[gsxrpilot]

I'll say the same thing I always say. Get the best equipped, flying Mooney in your budget.

For $72K I wouldn't be looking at J's. A J that can be bought for $72K is not one you want to fly and will probably need a bit of work.

Personally, I'd be looking for the best equipped M20C or M20E you can find for that budget. I know you say avionics don't matter, but finding a regularly flying M20C with a WAAS GPS and Stec 30 autopilot installed, would be my first choice. Unless you can get the same in an E for that budget.

There is no guarantee against that surprise $10,000 expense. But finding a Mooney that flies every week, is currently in annual, has been maintained to good flying standard, will go a long way to reducing the possibility you get hit with that unfortunate surprise.

I posted this somewhere before:  To own an airplane...
$1000 in your pocket for whatever/whenever
$5000 to $10,000 in the bank for a bad/first annual 
Access to the price of an engine either credit, second mortgage, cousin Vinny, etc.
Worst case scenario be able to walk away from the plane without it ruining your financial situation.

[Miami_Mooniac]

3 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

The real question is how much a month can you spend taking care of it, will an unexpected $10,000 bill kill you?

Ooo, monthly costs to maintain.. that's a great question.. been so busy thinking about monthly payments and insurance, haven't thought about monthly costs. So oil changes random bits,is that what constitutes monthly expenses?

As for the 10k bill,isn't that what credit is for?

6 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

You may be better off, especially if you price insurence to buy a simple, non complex airplane first. It’s still flying and you can enjoy it too, a whole lot less to go wrong on a Cherokee 140 or so than a Mooney, and you can get a good one for the same money that will buy a basket case Mooney.

Yea I've thought about it... not sure I want to give in and go that way, I got bit by the mooney bug and it's BITING HARD.

7 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Also Miami Beach is not a good place to leave an airplane tied down outside

Hahaha, I hear that, looking at KTMB and KHWO for tie down space, not as easy as it looks..

[gsxrpilot]

I was where you are now, back in 2014. I bought an M20C for $47K which everyone though was an outrageous amount to spend on a C. But it was flying, current, and had a great panel with autopilot and WAAS GPS. I flew it for two years and 400 hours. Annuals were about $2K each. And I spent a little bit more on some upgrades. Insurance was $800/yr, hangar was $250/month. Other than that, just gas and oil. I sold it for $50K. It was the best first airplane I could have hoped for. We flew it all over the country and loved every minute of it. I probably shouldn't have sold it. Although I like my 252 even better.

[Andy95W]

I’m going to be the odd man out here and say that if you had a hangar, I’d inspect the crap out of it for corrosion and then buy it if it was clean.

I’m on my 3rd airplane, all of which were flyable but needed a bunch of upgrades/work.  It’s fun (to me, at least ) to keep an airplane flying to the maximum extent possible and still work on it a bunch.  Over the course of making lists, developing logical plans to fix things so that you don’t have to take them apart twice, and taking lots of quiet time sipping beer while “communing” with your airplane in your hangar, you will end up with an airplane that you know intimately and is truly your own.  An A&P with an IA friend who can sign 337s can take an old airplane and update it with modern interior, instrumentation, and avionics.

You'll likely get 50-100 hours out of the engine (at least) before it starts talking to you and making enough metal that you’ll want to overhaul it.  If you’re willing to take care of the engine accessories, you can end up with a reasonably priced overhaul with electronic ignition, modern prop governor, and full-up digital engine instruments.

Doing it that way, you’ll end up saving money in the end.  Not much, but some.  Your “paycheck” for all of your hours of labor is the intimate knowledge of the airplane, and not having to pay interest on a loan double what you need.  You can pay for upgrades when you can afford them, not upfront.  That’s good for another reason- new stuff is coming out all the time, making 10 year old avionics look antiquated by comparison.

Good luck, keep us posted.  I’m looking forward to hear of  your decision and progress.  And please take everything I’ve said with a grain of salt.  I love working on airplanes (my own, especially) and I’m very much the odd-ball of the people who’ve responded.  And my advice only applies to someone with the A&P license who has the time and means to do the work.

[jaylw314]

I should point out that you do pay a premium for J's because they seem to be in higher demand.  That's fine if you're going to sell it later.  A bunch of people here are big F proponents as potentially less expensive alternative, since it can be modified to be similar to J's and many already are.  But still don't think a reasonable first-time-buyer one will be in the sub $72k range (correct me if I'm wrong, F guys!)

Also, you don't need a high-performance endorsement for any pre-K Mooney.  It's required OVER 200 HP, and the IO-360 makes 200 hp only.

Edited May 6, 2021 by jaylw314

[Skates97]

You likely want to fly more than work on it. I bought my D (really converted to a C) for $36k  four and a half years ago. It had no auto pilot and old avionics, no GPS, but it had always flown frequently. We have put 500 hours on it in that time with no big surprises. 

Since we bought it I have updated almost everything in the panel as I had funds for it and it is currently in the shop for a GFC500. Once that is done I will have spent more on upgrades than the purchase of the plane. It would have been much less to buy one equipped the way I wanted it, but at the time I couldn't afford it. Instead I bought the best equipped flying plane that I could afford. 

Figure out what you want, what you need, and what you can afford. Then keep looking until you find one that is flying and meets at least the last two items. You probably won't get everything you want with your budget, but if you keep looking you can find one that you can enjoy. 

I know a younger guy that bought an E with a ratty interior and older panel but it was flying and has a strong engine. He lives in the Midwest and in the past year flew it to the West Coast Mooney Club event in Sunriver Oregon and Sun n Fun in Florida along with a lot of places in between. If you want to fly cosmetics aren't as important as the engine. 

[201Steve]

8 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Access to the price of an engine either credit, second mortgage, cousin Vinny, etc.

Great movie!

[carusoam]

Assess your self...  not the plane...

M20Cs make a great entryway into GA and the world of Mooney aviation...

You have your A&P... so you have been trained in many airplane ownership issues...

You are 30 years old... so you have seen life’s issues close by, if not experienced them directly yourself...

 

Hangar queens are out, unless you like gambling...

If you are single, not married, no kids depending on you... and really want an M20J... go for it...  fly it to the Arctic circle... Land in Cuba,  circle the entire Caribbean.... because you can...

 

If you are married, with kids, living in NJ... And 30 years old...  M20Cs are really nice planes...   

The whole assess yourself thing comes from... what is it you want to do?

There are some MSers that are following a dream to be a pilot flying big jets... owning the lowest cost (overall) Mooney has really helped pave the way... getting the IR, flying in the system...

There are others that use it as a tool to make them better at being a transition trainer for new Mooney pilots....

One guy used his M20C to have his kids visit their grand parents often...   A J would have been better as the kids got bigger....

Use caution with the sliding scale... for a few bucks more, I can get a Long body that is sure to kill the dream...   (nobody says this out loud... but you can see how this works...)

Very few people start out trying to make bad financial decisions... taking on small amounts of risk is kind of like being a lobster sitting in a pot... each time something doesn’t go your way... the pot gets a bit warmer...

What is the point of getting a hangar queen...  to potentially get something for nothing... when it doesn’t work out you get an engine OH and you have to pay for it...

 

So single, 30, technically educated A&P, has a job, with enough dough to buy an M20J...

You are approved to move to the next level...

If you have a spreadsheet with costs of the various planes you are looking at... the J is a new column on the end...

See what happens if you add another column...   for the Missile... it’s just a J with a big engine... 

 

Beware of scope creep...  and experience creep...

You had solid ideas regarding the M20C... now it is creeping into less than perfect M20Js...

Scope creep is a common method for projects to lose financial control...

Experience creep is a common method for planes to lose control... best defense, get the experience and training to match... 

 

The good news...

We are in the roaring 20s... everything is getting better... Mooneys are selling like crazy...

If you buy too much Mooney or the job goes bad...   You can always sell it... (logic I used in Y2K...)

Just remember... 2007 was a great year for selling planes... 2008 you couldn’t give them away... 2009 you could get great deals when buying a plane...

Figure out what your means are...   Then stay within them...  Mom always said... stay within your means... 

PP thoughts only, not a personal finance guru...

Best regards,

-a-

[Miami_Mooniac]

On 5/6/2021 at 2:21 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I'll say the same thing I always say. Get the best equipped, flying Mooney in your budget.

This is a recurring theme I've seen from you, and it holds very wise experience!

 

On 5/6/2021 at 2:21 PM, gsxrpilot said:

For $72K I wouldn't be looking at J's. A J that can be bought for $72K is not one you want to fly and will probably need a bit of work.

Personally, I'd be looking for the best equipped M20C or M20E you can find for that budget. I know you say avionics don't matter, but finding a regularly flying M20C with a WAAS GPS and Stec 30 autopilot installed, would be my first choice. Unless you can get the same in an E for that budget.

Yes, this sounds quite logical and thoughtful, was just wondering if anybody from MS would also try to upsell me to a J. The difference is, a mechanic recommended that, where the opinions here are mostly pilots with some that do both,pilot and turn wrenches.

Sounds like a WAAS 430 is quite a beneficial factor,especially after having trained for my PPL with one installed as well.

On 5/6/2021 at 2:21 PM, gsxrpilot said:

There is no guarantee against that surprise $10,000 expense. But finding a Mooney that flies every week, is currently in annual, has been maintained to good flying standard, will go a long way to reducing the possibility you get hit with that unfortunate surprise.

Fair enough, best way to minimize risk I see

 

On 5/6/2021 at 2:27 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I was where you are now, back in 2014. I bought an M20C for $47K which everyone though was an outrageous amount to spend on a C. But it was flying, current, and had a great panel with autopilot and WAAS GPS.

This is what I'm leaning towards, although found one for 40k but with an engine over TBO..

 

On 5/6/2021 at 2:35 PM, Andy95W said:

I’m going to be the odd man out here and say that if you had a hangar, I’d inspect the crap out of it for corrosion and then buy it if it was clean.

I appreciate different prespectives so thank you for sharing! no hangar available in S. FL, so thats a NO-GO for me

 

On 5/6/2021 at 2:35 PM, Andy95W said:

Good luck, keep us posted.  I’m looking forward to hear of  your decision and progress.  And please take everything I’ve said with a grain of salt.  I love working on airplanes (my own, especially) and I’m very much the odd-ball of the people who’ve responded.  And my advice only applies to someone with the A&P license who has the time and means to do the work.

Fair enough, I do like the idea but maybe not just as I'm starting out, maybe a few years down the road when I'm a bit more coasting in my piloting and life careers

 

22 hours ago, Skates97 said:

You likely want to fly more than work on it.

Yes, thats what I AM currently making the realization of. Instead of going for a monster deal(low entry price) that I will EVENTUALLY put the money into but will loose lots of time and effort.. I am looking to get the money in up front and have one thats flying nicely to be enjoyed more

 

22 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Figure out what you want, what you need, and what you can afford. Then keep looking until you find one that is flying and meets at least the last two items. You probably won't get everything you want with your budget, but if you keep looking you can find one that you can enjoy.

THIS IS FINE ADVICE! I am currently looking to stay true to this and not get caught up falling in love with every bird I see because I'm still so enthuesed(maybe I typo'd this)about getting into the aviation field finally as a PILOT!

 

15 hours ago, carusoam said:

Beware of scope creep...  and experience creep...

You had solid ideas regarding the M20C... now it is creeping into less than perfect M20Js...

Scope creep is a common method for projects to lose financial control...

Experience creep is a common method for planes to lose control... best defense, get the experience and training to match... 

This is what I am looking to assess and re-evaluate here in this thread. I normally look for the best I can do within  certain limits. As I am not prepared to spend the +$70k(No J) and would like to fly more sooner than later.. M20C it is, to not let the scope and experience creep fly away from me!

 

ALL IN ALL GENTLEMAN, I APPRECIATE YOUR FINE INPUTS TO MAKE THE MOST SOUND DECISION FOR WHAT I'M LOOKING TO ACHEIVE.

WILL KEEP YOU POSTED!!!

[danad]

I think you’d be fine with anything in M20C -> G range and under 70k budget. Like most have said, look for mechanically sound, most of the avionics you’ll use, because interior refurb you can do a few hundred dollars at a time. Near run out will bring the price down the most, and earlier 1960s will be less than 1970s. I now have 50+ hours in mine, and a working autopilot would be very high on my list assuming your mission is to travel long distances. If you’ve got spouse/girlfriend and friend, kid or dog, I’d look at the F/G. That 5 inches for legs and 5 more for luggage goes a long way. 

[NJMac]

It's great to be excited about buying a plane.  I was just there, almost bought a Cirrus, then almost a Bonanza.  But in hindsight, the emotion and excitement nearly overshadowed my logic in the process.  Don't get caught up in the hustle or race to beat the other buyers.   This is a seller's market and you should approach it with healthy skepticism, for your own sake. 

[aviatoreb]

58 minutes ago, NJMac said:

It's great to be excited about buying a plane.  I was just there, almost bought a Cirrus, then almost a Bonanza.  But in hindsight, the emotion and excitement nearly overshadowed my logic in the process.  Don't get caught up in the hustle or race to beat the other buyers.   This is a seller's market and you should approach it with healthy skepticism, for your own sake. 

Did you buy anything yet?  Last I heard... that bonanza ...

[Niko182]

If your budget is 72k, that number makes me feel as if your number is calculated out, which means you're already at a disadvantage. Planes will usually cost more than you expect, especially for a first one. I say go with a 45k M20C, E, or F, and have a spare 25k for maintenance. Everything you don't spend in maint, spend on gas and enjoy.

[larryb]

For those who admit it I think most Mooney owners pay between $20k and $30k yearly all- in. A lot depends on hangar price where you live. In the long run it is not the purchase price that gets you.

[carusoam]

Larry,

I vote we strike that from the record...   

The reason prices are coded in AMU around here is to not put numbers like that in full view of the general public...

MS is open to a large swath of the general public...

When the finance administrator finds out how much gets spent annually... I would need another house for storage of the equivalent handbags and shoes... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Miami_Mooniac]

On 5/7/2021 at 5:09 PM, danad said:

If you’ve got spouse/girlfriend and friend, kid or dog, I’d look at the F/G. That 5 inches for legs and 5 more for luggage goes a long way. 

Yea... this makes me think more and reconsider my options, its great advice but now makes me rethink even more! hahaha I'm hoping to get a ride in a M20C this week for the first time and will bring my spouse to ride in the back seat and give me her opinion on space

 

On 5/7/2021 at 8:42 PM, NJMac said:

But in hindsight, the emotion and excitement nearly overshadowed my logic in the process.  Don't get caught up in the hustle or race to beat the other buyers.   This is a seller's market and you should approach it with healthy skepticism, for your own sake. 

Yes, also a great point! Kinda get the excited and falling in love with the first girl kinda itis, should I am doing my best to be cautious and extra meticolous about the details.

On 5/7/2021 at 9:50 PM, Niko182 said:

If your budget is 72k, that number makes me feel as if your number is calculated out, which means you're already at a disadvantage. Planes will usually cost more than you expect, especially for a first one. I say go with a 45k M20C, E, or F, and have a spare 25k for maintenance. Everything you don't spend in maint, spend on gas and enjoy.

YES,THIS IS VERY SOUND ADVICE!!!  These words resonate very well with me as I dont let somebody quickly enthuse me to the next level of aircraft which MIGHT cost me initially 72k but in reality will be closer to 100k once I start the annuals and regular maintenance.

That is what I'm looking at now then, a solid 45k for a M20C(or E,F,G THANKS TO @danad lol), and have that extra 25k hanging around for extra oops moments.

On 5/7/2021 at 10:07 PM, larryb said:

For those who admit it I think most Mooney owners pay between $20k and $30k yearly all- in. A lot depends on hangar price where you live. In the long run it is not the purchase price that gets you.

Ehhh... if all the maintenance is up to date, still 20AMU-30AMU per year..??? Is this including hangar, insurance, annual, & gas? Am I missing something??

[larryb]

hangar $8400

annual $5000 

Fuel $5000

insurance $2000

maintenance $3000

database $1000

total $24,400

Not all maintenance happens at annual. In my 9 years of Mooney ownership I have had to replace two cylinders. One in the J, one in the K, and about $5000 each. Plenty of other non-scheduled maintenance just comes up. And the upgrades have to be included somewhere. 

[carusoam]

Larry,

Please drop the dollar signs off the numbers...

I’m pretty sure I know what you are talking about...

Let me know if you don’t know what I’m talking about...

Bets regards,

-a-