Is it a sin to buy a Cirrus?

[Bob - S50]

I went from a J to an SR22 4 months ago because the wife of one of my partners wanted an airplane that would allow her to live if her husband died at the controls.

Things I like:

Parachute, a bit faster (10 knots or so, but burning an extra 4 GPH to do it), roomier, my wife says it's more comfortable, two doors, easy to land (the two or us that went from the Mooney to the SR22 greased the landings starting with the very first one).

Things I don't like:

Less efficient (8 gallons/100 NM vs 6 gallons for the J), no manual elevator trim if the trim motor quits, no window to yell 'clear' through, higher speed on final results in longer landing roll, even with the step my wife needs a step stool to get up on the wing, only 28 pounds more useful load than our J (all of which disappears when you consider fuel burn), no nosewheel steering (which makes it a pain in the ass to push back into the hangar and requires nearly constant braking when taxiing in a crosswind), a back asswards aileron/rudder interconnect that moves the aileron when you apply rudder rather than the other way around (although there is an SB to remove that which we are scheduled to do 4/12).

If you get CSIP training (which most insurance companies require) they will tell you to fly final at 80 knots with full flaps which is fine for gross weight, but way too fast for most landings.

[NJMac]

Thanks y'all's.  It's a very personal decision.  I definitely wasn't trying to kick the best.  And yes, I'm as independent of a thinker as they come. 

When I started flying, it was just me.  I had a wife, we had a so so marriage.  If I died in a plane twice my age,she got a life insurance and probably found a better husband.  

Fast forward a number of years and she's now the woman of my dreams. We have a 1 year old and another mite (like that Mooney reference?) on the assembly line awaiting delivery. 

Ive grown less comfortable taking my family in such a vintage plane.  We tried fitting 2 car seats in and it won't work for our desired configuration.  

I've posted briefly here about wanting a long body.  Ice protection is a must. The options in that world are few and far between.  So, looking at less attractive planes has become a thing.  Paul, I too hate that they fly with their gear out.  

A big thing for me is easy access to maintenance.  Steel is not even 5 minute flight from home base.  While I love going to AGL, it's not an insignificant trip. 

None of that mentioned the perceived safety a chute provides. 

[67 m20F chump]

Nothing wrong with a plastic clown plane.  

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Both Cirrus and Mooney are fine airplanes.  In the current circumstances I’d choose the Cirrus.

Clarence

You are surely the most qualified here to speak on that point.

What are you thoughts on cost of operation?  And to compare it wouldn't be fair to compare a M20E say to a 2018 SR22T.  How about two airplanes with the same engine.  A later model M20R vs a same year SR22 - including acquisition, and the multi-year maintenance costs how do you feel they compare in cost?

[aviatoreb]

Safety - we can logic this thing out back and forth until the cows come home.

I say let the pros do the work for us.  What do the insurance rates say on the same hull value cost?  What are insurance rates on say a 200k SR22 vs a 200k hull value M20?

Maybe 6 or 7 years ago last I was curious to look, not only was the SR22 much more expensive, but my insurance agent was not excited to even quote me saying they have had bad experience with Cirrus. That said I know that Cirrus and COPA have done a fantastic turning around and then improving dramatically their stats.

[Guest]

The maintenance cost of the Ovation/SR22 and the Acclaim/SR22T are comparable.  If you’re buying a 350-500K airplane the difference in cost isn’t worth discussing.

With a Cirrus you have CAPS line cutters every six years(2K) and the CAPS every 10 years(15K).  You gain leak free fuel tanks, no corrosion concerns.

Both suffer the same Continental engine issues, too bad they didn’t install a Lycoming.

Clarence

[NJMac]

12 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Safety - we can logic this thing out back and forth until the cows come home.

I saw let the pros do the work for us.  What do the insurance rates say on the same hull value cost?  What are insurance rates on say a 200k SR22 vs a 200k hull value M20?

Maybe 6 or 7 years ago last I was curious to look, not only was the SR22 much more expensive, but my insurance agent was not excited to even quote me saying they have had bad experience with Cirrus. That said I know that Cirrus and COPA have done a fantastic turning around and then improving dramatically their stats.

We'll see. I'm putting in an offer on this one:

https://aircraft.steelaviation.com/aircraft-single-new.cfm?aircraft=2039

[Ragsf15e]

17 minutes ago, NJMac said:

We'll see. I'm putting in an offer on this one:

https://aircraft.steelaviation.com/aircraft-single-new.cfm?aircraft=2039

Personal opinion, and not my $$, but that one’s not FIKI.  The FIKI ones are around 2011ish and newer.  If I’m gonna pay for a TKS system, I want to be able to launch through a known ice layer.  
Otherwise, I have maybe 75 hours in Cirrus and I would buy one if I had the cash for it.

[NJMac]

4 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

If I’m gonna pay for a TKS system, I want to be able to launch through a known ice layer.  

Life is full of tradeoffs.  I'd like FIKI too but inadvertent icing is better than nothing, for certain. 

I figure if I don't like this one, I can trade out to another one relatively easily with as fluid as the market is right now.

[carusoam]

Waaaaait a second...

We can’t be done yet... 

1) I adore my wife.... (in case anyone gets concerned...)

2) got her trained in the art of landing a Mooney...  it will be gear up, and I won’t care...

3) I Have owned two Mooneys while the plant was closed....

4) Bought my fist Mooney, right after my second child was born...

5) If I lived right next to tri-city Aero, where there happens to be the best service available for both aircraft... I’d keep bringing my O there, until I went Acclaim... then I’d take my Acclaim there...

6) I would purchase the airbag seatbelts....

7) Keep up on my IR currency...

8) Look forward to getting that automated land now button...

9) then go turbine... because reliance on reciprocation seems to have some added challenges...

10) Every sales guy knows... you have to buy what is available to you today... an extension of SWAT.

11) Don’t live your life fearing a heart-attack...   fear of a heart-attack will make you live your life with more gusto, more exercise, and a better diet... 

Fly the Mooney while you still can...

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

Just now, NJMac said:

Life is full of tradeoffs.  I'd like FIKI too but inadvertent icing is better than nothing, for certain. 

I figure if I don't like this one, I can trade out to another one relatively easily with as fluid as the market is right now.

Fair enough.  They are definitely comfortable and do their mission well. I liked having a chute available, and my chief pilot at a cirrus training center even got to use it!

[A64Pilot]

 

They don’t hand fly well at all, they trim poorly, they are meant to be an auto pilot flown airplane, nothing wrong with that, just know it going in.

‘Then look at  what the parachute limits are, something like 53 to 140 kts in straight and level flight?, so pretty much for an engine failure and not much else?

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

We'll see. I'm putting in an offer on this one:

https://aircraft.steelaviation.com/aircraft-single-new.cfm?aircraft=2039

An especially nice looking one.  In the end - its an airplane and it has wings and a tail.  What's not to like?!  Good luck!!

[Mcstealth]

I wish I could buy a new Mooney. I wish I could buy a new Cirrus. I would go Mooney of course. Whatever you fly, I will be jealous of both the bird and you.

[Tim Jodice]

6 minutes ago, Mcstealth said:

I wish I could buy a new Mooney.

When that day happens you won't need to go far!

[Yetti]

Seriously how many planes can your friend fly at once.   Just fly one of his.

[NJMac]

24 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

An especially nice looking one.  In the end - its an airplane and it has wings and a tail.  What's not to like?!  Good luck!!

I've got to admit, that's the first paint job I've seen on a Cirrus that I've actually liked. 

[Bob - S50]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Then look at  what the parachute limits are, something like 53 to 140 kts in straight and level flight?, so pretty much for an engine failure and not much else?

Max DEMONSTRATED speed is 133 KIAS.  There have been successful deployments faster.  No minimum speed that I know of.  As a matter of fact, if you get in a spin the POH says you must use the chute.

They say you have an excellent chance of success once you reach 500' AGL and even teach us to say 'CAPS available' as we pass that point.  No mention of straight and level.

So far, of all the deployments that have occurred above 1000' AGL and at or below 133 KIAS, they have a 100% survival rate.

[carusoam]

Just for the record...

You don’t have to leave MS...

If you somehow get the decision wrong...  

 

Two planes in a similar cost range... available today...

One plane, we have evidence, it flys...  Fast!

 

 

The other one looks OK, on the ground...

I think the TN’d version would be nicer...

Weekend MS rules on spending OPM are in full swing...  

Best regards,

-a-
 

 

[MooneyMitch]

It’s not a sin, but you can see it from there !

[AerostarDriver]

I had the opportunity to fly an SR22T a number of years ago. The Cirrus was very comfortable but I was never able to get over the side stick that it uses. I strongly prefer the side stick in the Columbia/Corvallis from a pilots perspective, but it depends on how you use the airplane.   

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, NJMac said:

Thanks y'all's.  It's a very personal decision.  I definitely wasn't trying to kick the best.  And yes, I'm as independent of a thinker as they come. 

When I started flying, it was just me.  I had a wife, we had a so so marriage.  If I died in a plane twice my age,she got a life insurance and probably found a better husband.  

Fast forward a number of years and she's now the woman of my dreams. We have a 1 year old and another mite (like that Mooney reference?) on the assembly line awaiting delivery. 

Ive grown less comfortable taking my family in such a vintage plane.  We tried fitting 2 car seats in and it won't work for our desired configuration.  

I've posted briefly here about wanting a long body.  Ice protection is a must. The options in that world are few and far between.  So, looking at less attractive planes has become a thing.  Paul, I too hate that they fly with their gear out.  

A big thing for me is easy access to maintenance.  Steel is not even 5 minute flight from home base.  While I love going to AGL, it's not an insignificant trip. 

None of that mentioned the perceived safety a chute provides. 

I can't argue with any of this. Well thought out and well said.

I do have an issue with that particular Cirrus. All that Avidyne stuff and yet the GPS's are the worst you can install in any airplane. GTN650's, two of them!? I'd make the offer contingent on them replacing both with an IFD540/440 stack. 

[Will.iam]

My personal opinion but I’ll take a steel roll cage over a chute any day. Once you pull the chute you’re at the mercy of the wind and where that puts you. I’d rather control it all the way to the dirt in a tank. Most people can solo within 10 hours or so. Teach the spouse to steer it in - in case for when she is with u if you happen to become incapacitated. 

[ziggysanchez]

I owned a 2005 SR-22 NA bird for 6 years and logged nearly 2000 hours in it. Went from it to a Mooney 231. For a lot of reasons I prefer the Mooney over the Cirrus. When I first purchased the Mooney it was going to be a temporary plane until I returned to flying a Cirrus again. When it came time for me to purchase a newer and better equipped aircraft I couldn't bring myself to buy another Cirrus and instead purchased a Screaming Eagle M20S. I have well over a thousand hours spread out over several different Mooney's (231, Missile and Eagle). I don't think I'll ever go back to a Cirrus. I'm 6'3" and weigh 290lbs. I'm more comfortable in the Mooney over the Cirrus albeit a little harder to get into because of the single door. I don't hate the Cirrus...I just wouldn't want to own one again or fly one as regularly as I fly my Mooney. Just my 2 pennies

[RJBrown]

Yes, it is a sin.

both a roll cage and a one piece wing spar.

don’t want, wouldn’t pay for a chute. It’s a gimmick. 
give me that plane and I’d trade it for the best Rocket available,

and keep the change.