How Many Hours PIC to Transition into a Mooney (Poll)?

[Hank]

15 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

And with regards to IFR training, as far as I'm concerned, the Mooney is an excellent platform to learn and get the IFR ticket in. Learn to fly in a trainer, then buy a Mooney and log some hours. Then get the IFR certificate in the Mooney that you're now comfortable flying. 

 

9 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

This is exactly what I'm doing!

This is exactly what I did!

See, it works . . . .

[MikeOH]

If you can control airspeed well, you won't have any problem.  That is the key, in my experience.

Doesn't matter how many hours you have, or don't.

[Schllc]

I believe experience level to start flying any plane is irrelevant much less a Mooney.  The air force puts people directly into planes way more complex.

I would say it is all about training and humility.
I bought my first plane, an ovation as I was finishing my ppl, and I looked at a LOT of planes before I bought. 
I was first drawn to the Mooney was because of my mission. 
But my rationale was that I was going to pay someone to fly with me a great amount of hours in the next year as I gained experience, trained for ifr, and became proficient enough to fly my family.  So if I was going to do that, why wouldn’t I do it in the plane I plan to fly long term?  I hired a CFI who was looking for a job flying freight to fly with me my first 50 hours in the Mooney.  

I realized I would gain all of those critical experiences in “my plane”, and all of my procedures and habits would be shaped around that platform. 
To me this seemed much smarter than flying some different plane for two years and then learning a new one. 
I now have six years of experience, 800+ hours, 650 of that in long body mooney’s, the rest in a variety of planes. Basically, anything anyone will let me fly in.  

I feel very comfortable, believe I am safer and more proficient than I would be with half the hours i now have in a Mooney.  It’s the same thing with steam gauges or glass. I’m sure a guy with 30 years behind steam gauges is a LOT more comfortable and proficient with them than a glass cockpit. I did all my 172 time as a student with those old broken down everything inop flight school planes. All steam gauges and no gps, but after I flew with a g1000 I didn’t want to go back. 
 

Everyone has to decide which route is best for them, and I’m not suggesting my path is better than any other, just explaining my logic...

[donkaye, MCFI]

42 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

If you can control airspeed well, you won't have any problem.  That is the key, in my experience.

Doesn't matter how many hours you have, or don't.

Going hand in hand is slope management.

[carusoam]

1) 100hrs in C152s

2) I had one good CFI for a check ride... where he tried to undo, then build on top of, some mediocre training I had received for the first 50hrs...

3) Instructors in the 90s at my home drome were on a mission to get to 1000hrs... probably took a year...

Its highly unlikely, a young person is going to learn to be a good teacher in only 1k hours... while he is learning the machines and systems at the same time from other inadequate teachers...

4) Transitioned into an M20C... using 10hrs of a standard CFI... young buck with a POH... insurance mandated hours...

5) Studying accident reports to learn what to avoid...

 

Other life experience...

 I have decades of buying and selling industrial machinery experience.  Where transition training is key to getting that final payment... (seek proper instruction)

Start-up, operations, and shut-down, are very much like flying on instruments...  most of what is happening inside a machine can’t be seen...  and no machine crashes are ever appreciated...   

Slalom racing... look as far down the course to select the line you need right now... be on that line... the moment you get behind the skis... you fight to catch up... that costs speed... very much like flying a traffic pattern... ultimate multi-tasking capabilities are appreciated...  (seek proper instruction)

By the time I got to the Ovation... guess what I did?   

Sought proper instruction...

Best regards,

-a-

[RLCarter]

Maybe it's all the hype about landing a Mooney that I'm way more focused, but I find landing the Mooney easier than the Cessna 172. I flew a buddies Ovation a few weeks back, landed it just fine and that was from the right seat. 

[Bartman]

I bought my J with a PPL and 100 hours total. I transitioned with a CFI who owns a Mooney himself who made sure I knew how to fly the pattern and land with the proper air speeds.  We have a 2,100 ft field locally and he would not sign me off until I was proficient landing at that airport. He set me up for the dreaded bounce and porpoise and how to safely deal with it. The other thing he made me do was aborted landing after a bounce in full flaps configuration and full up trim which was an eye opener.
 

I flew for a couple of years VFR and almost exclusively cross country 300 miles or more. After having to drive home a couple of times due to weather I got my IFR and this really opened my eyes. For me owning a Mooney at a certain number of hours was not the issue. I bought my Mooney to travel cross country. You can fly VFR no problem, but you have to understand you limitations and respect the weather, and be flexible. For me, to fly my mission safely and with reliable dispatch time I needed the instrument rating.

[N201MKTurbo]

I bought my first Mooney in 84. At the time I had 1 takeoff and one landing in an over gross M20F, and the demo flight with the broker I bought the plane from. The insurance company didn’t require any transition training because I had flown almost 300 hours in the past 12 months in a Cessna Cutless RG. My third Mooney flight was flying it home from the broker and my 4th flight was a night flight from Denver to Oshkosh. I didn’t receive any Mooney training. I had my private license for about 3 years and had about 800 hours.

I thought the takeoffs and landings were easy, and it flew wonderfully. I still do.

[gsxrpilot]

When I asked my transition CFI about landing speeds, he said to look out the window and land the airplane. That's been working out well ever since.

[201er]

29 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

When I asked my transition CFI about landing speeds, he said to look out the window and land the airplane. That's been working out well ever since.

Doesn’t work so good if you have a tailwind or high density altitude true airspeed 

AOA is better 

[gsxrpilot]

7 minutes ago, 201er said:

Doesn’t work so good if you have a tailwind or high density altitude true airspeed 

AOA is better 

Eyeballs out the window are the poor man's AOA. And I agree, they work better than watching the ASI. 

[Hank]

47 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

When I asked my transition CFI about landing speeds, he said to look out the window and land the airplane. That's been working out well ever since.

That's how I learned. Then I read Don Kaye and now back it up with the ASI to counter Mike's point about wind and DA.

[midlifeflyer]

I'm not sure how relevant the results to the first question are other than a bunch of numbers. In my case the first time I checked out in a Mooney (a C), I had just under 300 hours, just under 50 in complex aircraft. OTOH, it was also the first time there was a Mooney available for me to check out it. Checkout was one flight, 1.4 hours on the Hobbs.

Not sure what of any consequence one can get from that .

23 hours ago, donkaye said:

Iransitioning to a Mooney should be no different than transitioning to any other tricycle gear airplane,

Exactly.

[Davidv]

15 hours ago, Schllc said:

I believe experience level to start flying any plane is irrelevant much less a Mooney.  The air force puts people directly into planes way more complex.

I would say it is all about training and humility.

Agree 100%, it's all about how seriously you take the training and the frequency of flying.  These kids in the military get put into a turbine almost instantly. 

[spistora]

4 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

When I asked my transition CFI about landing speeds, he said to look out the window and land the airplane. That's been working out well ever since.

We must have had the same transition CFI.

[Ibra]

For landings there are 4 things that matter: speed control, slow flight currency, engine and height management, the overall flying/landing currency, Mooneys are not difficult to land just less forgiving to the first 3 items as most of the time they are flown on faster speeds, they are less draggy on a wide range of medium speeds and will stay clean way very close to stall then suddenly gets very draggy like anything else or slightly more dramatic  

The rest is about the same as all aircrafts, just 30kts faster 

2 hours ago, Davidv said:

Agree 100%, it's all about how seriously you take the training and the frequency of flying.  These kids in the military get put into a turbine almost instantly.

I agree with enough training and will they can jump in turboprops or twin jets with barely 30h in pistons but those kids tend to fly 10h/week during training and up to 500h/year afterward and have sharp on reflexes, the amount of complexity they can take will be different than the average private pilot 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Ibra

[Mooneymite]

This thread amazes me.  The Navy taught thousands of aviators to fly the T-34B using low time instructors and students who had zero flight time.  For many, the commercial flight to PNS was the first time they'd ever been in an airplane prior to flight school!  Virtually everyone soloed on their 13th flight.  Is the Mooney really so much more difficult than the T-34B?  Do we have to have such incredible instructors?

The Mooney is a certified airplane with very few quirks and even fewer bad habits.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Mooneymite

[donkaye, MCFI]

33 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

This thread amazes me.  The Navy taught thousands of aviators to fly the T-34B using low time instructors and students who had zero flight time.  For many, the commercial flight to PNS was the first time they'd ever been in an airplane prior to flight school!  Virtually everyone soloed on their 13th flight.  Is the Mooney really so much more difficult than the T-34B?  Do we have to have such incredible instructors?

The Mooney is a certified airplane with very few quirks and even fewer bad habits.

Having flown the Citation, but not the T-34B, does it have oleo struts?  In my opinion that is a big difference between the Mooney and other airplanes.  Those rubber shock discs do make it prone to bouncing much more than those planes whose landing gear are better damped.  If not properly taught how to recover from the "Mooney bounce" by an instructor who is very familiar with it, the new Mooney pilot is much more susceptible to a prop strike.  So, yes, I think it IS important to have a Mooney specific instructor over one unfamiliar with it traits.

[carusoam]

The Mooney has one quirk that catches people off guard...

How they react to it, is very important...

If they rely on primary instruction... that can be semi-hazardous...

If they are not physically strong... that can be semi-hazardous...

When following the transition training...

A full flap go-around, isn’t anything to be feared...

 

When using primary training based procedures...

• full up trim...
• full flaps...
• full throttle...

Turns into...

• nose-up attitude...
• Decreasing air speed...
• arm tiring...  more while trimming manually
• unsustainable situation...
• not self correcting...

This doesn’t happen very often...

But, I would want every transitioning pilot to be aware of...

Too much power can be a real thing.  And, not always good...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

 

Putting it into context is important...

1) Don’t run out of fuel...

2) Don’t fly VFR into IMC...

3) Don’t fly into thunderstorms...

4) Don’t fly into icing conditions...

5) Don’t go full throttle, with full flaps, and full up trim....

6) Go around on the first bounce... you might get a second bounce automatically... don’t wait for the second... or you might get the third.

Still not a CFI...

-a-

[Andy95W]

58 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

This thread amazes me.  The Navy taught thousands of aviators to fly the T-34B using low time instructors and students who had zero flight time.  For many, the commercial flight to PNS was the first time they'd ever been in an airplane prior to flight school!  Virtually everyone soloed on their 13th flight.  Is the Mooney really so much more difficult than the T-34B?  Do we have to have such incredible instructors?

The Mooney is a certified airplane with very few quirks and even fewer bad habits.

I’m with Gus.  It’s an airplane.  It flies like an airplane.

Would a Mooney-specific CFI assist the transition to Mooney flying (and advanced avionics)?  Yes.  Is it essential?  No.

Mooney transition training, just like the Private Pilot’s License, is a license to learn.

[donkaye, MCFI]

22 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Would a Mooney-specific CFI assist the transition to Mooney flying (and advanced avionics)?  Yes.  Is it essential?  No.

 

With almost 6,400 hours of teaching most in Mooneys, I couldn't disagree more with your last statement .

[Guest]

Isn’t the key to avoiding a bounce being on speed at touchdown?  I’ve found the Mooney trailing link main gear design to be as good as Cessna’s  “landomatic” gear.  Straight legged Comanche gear and laminar wing make for harder landings when not on speed.

Clarence

 

[donkaye, MCFI]

22 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Isn’t the key to avoiding a bounce being on speed at touchdown?  I’ve found the Mooney trailing link main gear design to be as good as Cessna’s  “landomatic” gear.  Straight legged Comanche gear and laminar wing make for harder landings when not on speed.

Clarence

 

Partly, but rate of descent at touchdown is what causes bounces.  Mooneys don't have trailing link landing gear.  They have shock discs that don't damp anything; quite the opposite.

[RLCarter]

2 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Mooneys don't have trailing link landing gear.

If they aren’t trailing link, what are they?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Partly, but rate of touchdown is what causes bounces.  Mooneys don't have trailing link landing gear.  They have shock discs that don't damp anything; quite the opposite.

It sure looks like trading link landing gear to me. It’s not oleo gear, the pivot point of the gear leg is forward of the axle upon which the tire spins, hence trailing link design.  Maybe yours is different?  
 

Clarence