IFR panel dilemmas

[dominikos]

Folks, 

I tried to make sense out of the conversations in this section, but I still have a few questions. Appreciate any suggestions in advance...

I’m about to start IFR training. My plane is equipped with GNS 430 and IFR certified. GNS 430 is fully operational, it actually was serviced before I bought the plane and has a new screen / face plate. My objective is to use plane for cross country flights, but I would not expect extreme IFR flying, just hoping IFR will enable me to stay as close to schedule as possible.

Here is a question. Knowing that my GPS does not support WAAS, I’m considering upgrade. I also realize that choosing between Garmin and Avidyne will dictate my future panel decisions. Hence, it’s not easy decision to be made. Here are the options that I identified:

- keep current setup - limits IFR approaches but might be quite sufficient for what I need - just need to learn GNS

- upgrade to GNS 430WAAS - more possibilities, not future proof but also quite inexpensive - probably around $2K to upgrade

- upgrade to Avidyne - IFD 540 - like that larger screen idea - would have to get rid of 2nd radio but they are on their last legs anyway. This would send me towards  Dynon Skyview based panel in the future. When all taken into account is it really that much cheaper than Garmin?

- upgrade to Garmin - GTN 750 si - similar choices like above but would result in Garmin based panel in the future. This is probably the priciest option.

- go nuts and redo the entire panel now - one of the shop suggested avionics loan which would help me to reduce the cost of multiple iterations. feels quite crazy as I probably cannot even articulate what I need at this point.

Since I’m starting, I don’t have enough experience that needs to be undone so I’m flexible. I’m just looking for the best way forward while trying to keep budget under control.

And I noticed that folks recommend that updates should be done at once instead of progressively as it helps to avoid extra labor cost. A stupid perhaps question, but if I eventually need to redo interior, upgrade panel, and repaint the plane, will this rule apply as well? Or is there a recommended sequence of projects? For example, does repainting a plane require taking out panel?

thanks, Dominik

[donkaye]

Rolls Royce: G500 TXi, GTN 750Xi, GTN650Xi, GMA 35, GI275(Backup AI), GFC 500, GTX 345

Cadillac: G3x, GTN 750Xi, GTN650Xi, GMA 35 GI275(Backup AI), GFC 500, GTX 345

Lincoln: 2 GI275, GTN 750Xi, GTN650Xi, GMA 35, GFC 500, GTX 345

Honda Accord: GI275, GTN 750Xi, GTN650Xi, GMA 35, GTX 345

Ford: GI275, GTN 750Xi, GNC 255, GTX 345

Ford Escort: GI275, GTN 650Xi, GNC 255, GTX 345

Motor Bike: G5, GTN 650Xi, GNC 255, GTX 345

Bicycle: GTN 650Xi, GTX 345

Walk: GTN 650Xi

Above assumes going Garmin.  I have no experience with anything else, so have no other suggestions.  I left out the engine monitor because there are just too many combinations. I would not fly in IMC conditions with you, however, with anything less than 2 Attitude indicators in this day and age---nor should you.

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, dominikos said:

- go nuts and redo the entire panel now - one of the shop suggested avionics loan which would help me to reduce the cost of multiple iterations. feels quite crazy as I probably cannot even articulate what I need at this point.

My personal choice.  It’s only natural to look at this option as a major outlay al at once, but you’d be surprised how much you’ll be saving in labor by doing things all at once “while they’re in there”.

Don’s point about having at least 2 ADIs is very valid.  The GI275 is known affectionate today as “TXi in a tube”, given its extremely high level of functionality compared with the G500TXi.  Although the G5 does the job, the GI275 is leaps and bounds more functional.

Redoing your interior, or repainting your airplane wouldn’t warrant your panel being disassembled again, should you decide to undertake a major avionics upgrade now.

Let us know if this helps address your points.

[carusoam]

Great decision..!

Go WAAS any way you can...

Follow DK’s decision tree above...

Steven’s logic is, unfortunately, right on... Do a lot of planning in advance...

For comparison...  toss on some offerings from Avidyne and Dynon and PSEngineering...

If you like knowing all the hardware details... mixing and matching various manufacturers can work really well... Aspens are nice...

If your interest in the hardware isn’t there... go all one manufacturer, some manufacturers have strong partnerships, and others are excluded by the big guys...

Start a thread... include before, during, and after pics...

Start a spreadsheet... lots off adding and subtracting will be needed for good comparisons...

When budget limited... check in with Alan to see what he has... or what may be coming in...

I am amazed how many nice boxes came out when the TXis went in...

PP thoughts only, not an avionics guru...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited January 19, 2021 by carusoam

[Vance Harral]

I'll refrain from recommending any specific hardware.  Just don't buy so much hardware that it eats into your budget for actually flying the airplane.  I'd much rather ride along on a "bicycle" flown by a pilot with 100 hours in the last year, than a "Cadillac" with 10.  Heck, I'd rather fly IMC with certain pilots in a non-GPS, steam gauge-only airplane, than others with a $100K panel, based completely on how often and how carefully they train.

Due respect to Don, but he's an outlier.  His (well-deserved) financial status allows him to make avionics spending decisions completely independent of hours flown.  I admire and aspire to that, but most of us are more constrained.

[Nokomis449]

I had a non-WAAS 430 in the Mooney when I got my IFR rating.  This was about the time that GPS approaches were coming on strong and ADS-B mandate was on the horizon and getting bigger.  I narrowed it down to upgrading the 430 and get a Garmin ADS-B transponder, or going with a slide-in Avidyne IFD440 and get an Avidyne ADS-B transponder.  The Garmin route would've been somewhat cheaper, but I would still be flying behind 1990's technology and Garmin had already shown their disdain for keeping the 430's alive by jumping up their WAAS upgrade price by a significant amount.  So I went with Avidyne and have been very pleased with it.

Regardless of which brand you choose, I strongly suggest getting something that will shoot WAAS LPV approaches.   At some point, your personal minimums just might be lower than your non-WAAS 430 can go, and at that point you'll wish you'd spent your 2021 dollars on a WAAS upgrade.  With your non-WAAS 430, the ILS is the lowest approach you can shoot and not many mom-n-pop GA airports have them.  But GPS approaches are going in everywhere, and even Podunk Municipal probably has an LPV approach to 200ft.

[Niko182]

I thought Waas upgrade aren't available for the GNS series anymore.

Anyhow, if you plan to have higher limitations of IFR, then I'd just stick with the GNS430. I'd spend the money on a set of G5's which you will be way better off having in IFR conditions, and if you don't have a primary engine monitor, a JPI900. If you want to upgrade to a new GPS, I have a GNX375, which I really love. A GNC355, since I presume you already have ADS-B, would be the proper route. I've flown behind a GTN750XI, and it is really really nice, but its also around 16k, so give or take 20 installed, and then add another 1.6k for the FS510 The GNC355 is 6K plus install. the GNX/GNC/GPS series come with connext installed so you can transfer flight plans over foreflight without having to buy an FS510. Yes, I know someones going to bring up how it doesn't have wireless database updates, but It isn't that hard to bring a laptop with you to the airport and just slide the SD card into the computer and wait 5 minutes for it to update 1 time a month, and it sure as hell isn't worth 1700 bucks plus a yearly garmin subscription to get the ability to do that.

[Ragsf15e]

I’d do nothing for now.  What you’ve got is plenty capable.  Get your rating, learn more what you like or don’t like.  Talk with people about what they like. Think it through and do it when you really know what you want.  The 430 will give you rnav approaches to non precision mins and ils to 200’.  You shouldn’t be flying approaches that low in the weather as a brand new instrument pilot anyway.  You’ve got time to think.

[carusoam]

Rags,

I’m interested in your opinion of...

1) Dominikos is about to start his IR training...

2) The current system is heavily VOR/ILS/GPS/WAAS...  and moving more towards WAAS with time...

3) Wouldn’t it be wise to include WAAS in his panel for training purposes as well?

4) Most people around MS advise learning in the plane you fly...

5) Unless, WAAS isn’t available in his training area...

6) I trained with an ADF and DME, I would have gladly swapped for a WAAS GPS...   

These things had just started falling off the back of the curve...

Best regards,

-a-

[Greg Ellis]

9 hours ago, donkaye said:

Rolls Royce: G500 TXi, GTN 750Xi, GTN650Xi, GMA 35 GI275(Backup AI), GFC 500, GTX 345

Cadillac: G3x, GTN 750Xi, GTN650Xi, GMA 35 GI275(Backup AI), GFC 500, GTX 345

Lincoln: 2 GI275, GTN 750Xi, GTN650Xi, GMA 35, GFC 500, GTX 345

Honda Accord: GI275, GTN 750Xi, GTN650Xi, GMA 35, GTX 345

Ford: GI275, GTN 750Xi, GNC 255, GTX 345

Ford Escort: GI275, GTN 650Xi, GNC 255, GTX 345

Motor Bike: G5, GTN 650Xi, GNC 255, GTX 345

Bicycle: GTN 650Xi, GTX 345

Walk: GTN 650Xi

Above assumes going Garmin.  I have no experience with anything else, so have no other suggestions.  I left out the engine monitor because there are just too many combinations. I would not fly in IMC conditions with you, however, with anything less the 2 Attitude indicators in this day and age---nor should you.

Oh geez.... I am flying behind a 530W, 300XL and G5's....where does that put me on this list? A crawl, lying flat on the couch, using a walker.... 

 

[PeteMc]

All depends upon how much cash you want to put in now.  AND how much cash you want to have for flying, because you're going to want to fly a lot to make what you learn in your training second nature.

In all training I've been involved in (not just flying) I like to go for the basic principals and go from there.  So as great as WAAS would be, you have everything you need to learn how to fly GPS.  And you'll learn precision approaches with the ILS, which you'll be able to cross over to GPS when you do get a WAAS unit.  I'm NOT saying don't get it, just saying it may not be as important as you may think for your IFR training.

Next question I didn't see you comment on is how much IFR are you going to do after the training?  And are you planning to continue to upgrades to your panel right after your training or will it be a while and as needed?  If you're going to continue the upgrades, what  condition is your second Comm radio in?  The 430 everyone agrees is very capable for your training.  But if Comm 2 is a very weak link, maybe upgrade it now with something like the GNC355.

The GNC355 will give you a WAAS GPS and Comm.  Pending your area and the approaches, you could put it in #2 slot where it would probably live if you're going to continue the upgrades right after your training.  Or put it in the #1 slot now and use it for your primary navigation.  For ILS/LOC/VOR you'll need to switch to the 430, but training on how to switch and switching under pressure is not a bad thing to do with your CFII. 

If you want to update your displays, I'd also put in a vote for the GI271 if you're looking for something to start with.  Again, cash for flying or cash for toys is the issue.  But if this is in the plan, I'd strongly consider getting the full ADAHRS unit.  This won't necessarily help you now, but depending upon your other upgrades later, this version may be your legal backup to allow you to remove the vacuum system.  So at least look forward to what you *think* you may do and what you can build on.

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, Greg Ellis said:

Oh geez.... I am flying behind a 530W, 300XL and G5's....where does that put me on this list? A crawl, lying flat on the couch, using a walker.... 

 

You and me both, brother.

[Greg Ellis]

41 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

You and me both, brother.

Actually I think this represents a 530W and a 430W combination.  I think I am below that somewhere.

[chriscalandro]

What airplane is it?

What are the times?

Edited January 19, 2021 by chriscalandro

[gsxrpilot]

The two data points that are important to me are, 1) you're flying and M20J (arguably the best Mooney investment of the fleet) and 2) you're just starting your IFR training.

With those to factors in mind, I say two things.

1. Take your time and do the upgrade right. The value of an M20J can be seriously effected by the panel and doing it right will maximize your investment.
2. The process of going from the start of IFR training to being a regular IFR pilot, takes some time. You'll learn a lot and your whole outlook on flying will likely change. Things that are important today will be less so, and things you haven't even thought of, will become SOP. Also, and perhaps unfortunately, IFR training typically involves very little actual IMC flying. 

In my mind, both of those factors indicate that it's better to wait to choose a direction for the panel until you have more knowledge and experience to work with. Therefore if I were in your position, I'd upgrade the 430 to WAAS and that's it. That gives an immediate bump in value to your M20J (probably more than the $2K cost to upgrade) and still preserves all your options for future upgrades.  And if you learn to fly IFR with that configuration, you can be sure that any upgrades from that point forward will just make it all easier.

One item I might consider, if you don't already have it in your panel, is an HSI. That could be in the form of a G5 or 275. No matter how you upgrade panels in the future, it will assuredly include an HSI. And next to a GPS and autopilot, nothing makes such an improvement on IFR flying like an HSI over a DG.

So spend as little as possible now, get the Instrument rating sooner rather than later. That will likely reduce your insurance premium which can then go towards the panel upgrade. You'll also have a much better idea of the direction you'd like to go with the panel.

Just my $0.02

[Ragsf15e]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

Rags,

I’m interested in your opinion of...

1) Dominikos is about to start his IR training...

2) The current system is heavily VOR/ILS/GPS/WAAS...  and moving more towards WAAS with time...

3) Wouldn’t it be wise to include WAAS in his panel for training purposes as well?

4) Most people around MS advise learning in the plane you fly...

5) Unless, WAAS isn’t available in his training area...

6) I trained with an ADF and DME, I would have gladly swapped for a WAAS GPS...   

These things had just started falling off the back of the curve...

Best regards,

-a-

I’m sure waas is available in his area, but learning to fly an lnav and learning to fly an lpv separately isn’t really required imo.  He’s gonna learn ILS for precision approach and he’ll learn 90% of gps approaches in lnav.  Does waas add anything except going below lnav mins?  He can do all the enroute stuff exactly the same.  All the gps approaches work without waas.  When he eventually flys with waas, he’ll probably nail the lpv because it’s likely easier than the ils.

Would i train with adf and a single vor?  Probably not.  An airplane with an ifr gps and ils however is flying 95% of what he’ll use in the future anyway.

[Ragsf15e]

8 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

The two data points that are important to me are, 1) you're flying and M20J (arguably the best Mooney investment of the fleet) and 2) you're just starting your IFR training.

With those to factors in mind, I say two things.

1. Take your time and do the upgrade right. The value of an M20J can be seriously effected by the panel and doing it right will maximize your investment.
2. The process of going from the start of IFR training to being a regular IFR pilot, takes some time. You'll learn a lot and your whole outlook on flying will likely change. Things that are important today will be less so, and things you haven't even thought of, will become SOP. Also, and perhaps unfortunately, IFR training typically involves very little actual IMC flying. 

In my mind, both of those factors indicate that it's better to wait to choose a direction for the panel until you have more knowledge and experience to work with. Therefore if I were in your position, I'd upgrade the 430 to WAAS and that's it. That gives an immediate bump in value to your M20J (probably more than the $2K cost to upgrade) and still preserves all your options for future upgrades.  And if you learn to fly IFR with that configuration, you can be sure that any upgrades from that point forward will just make it all easier.

One item I might consider, if you don't already have it in your panel, is an HSI. That could be in the form of a G5 or 275. No matter how you upgrade panels in the future, it will assuredly include an HSI. And next to a GPS and autopilot, nothing makes such an improvement on IFR flying like an HSI over a DG.

So spend as little as possible now, get the Instrument rating sooner rather than later. That will likely reduce your insurance premium which can then go towards the panel upgrade. You'll also have a much better idea of the direction you'd like to go with the panel.

Just my $0.02

I think Garmin quit doing the waas upgrades.  I think you’re left with buying a used waas 430w if you want to “upgrade”.  
Im not sure of the exact timing on their announcement.

[dominikos]

Just now, Ragsf15e said:

I think Garmin quit doing the waas upgrades.  I think you’re left with buying a used waas 430w if you want to “upgrade”.  
Im not sure of the exact timing on their announcement.

That’s correct. I was evaluating option to buy used 430W and sell my 430 - the difference is what I could find out on different bulletin boards.

[dominikos]

Folks, a lot of good information, some of it I cannot fully appreciate just starting IFR training. I included the pictures of my current panel.  

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, dominikos said:

I included the pictures of my current panel.  

I don't see them yet?

[dominikos]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

I don't see them yet?

apologies, they were not available on my ipad, had to move to Mac, there are attached now

[tmo]

There is always the option to replace the GNS430 with an IFD440.

[Niko182]

My recommendation to what you should do before you start flying in IFR conditions

At least a JPI830, and if you can a JPI900 to get rid of all the old engine gauges.
A G5 HSI and get rid of the DG so that you have a backup AI at all times. A backup AI
is the most basic non legal requirement if your flying IFR.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Niko182

[Vance Harral]

4 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

Oh geez.... I am flying behind a 530W, 300XL and G5's....where does that put me on this list? A crawl, lying flat on the couch, using a walker.... 

 

I'm still flying with a mechanical AI and DG, I think that puts me in the grave.

[gsxrpilot]

Here's what I'd do. Put in a pair of Gi275's. That gives you an HSI and allows you to remove one of your CDI's. Move the better of the two CDI's to the lower spot in the panel. Move the current AI to the upper CDI position.

Now you have two AI's, and an HSI. That along with upgrading the 430 to a 430W and you'd have a very respectable IFR panel.