Cost of maintaining TKS/FIKI

[Flyphilly]

Hi all - My name is Phil - new to the forum, have really enjoyed reading through threads so far, thank you all for making this place what it is.

I am considering an Ovation purchase and looking for some opinions:

Debating the value of having FIKI on a plane in the southeast - based in Atlanta, and the main reason to have it would be to bust through 1000 to 2000' cloud layers on winter mornings. As much as I would never intentionally fly into known ice, there were several mornings this past winter where I delayed or chose not to fly because below 10c and visible moisture and it burned off a few hours later.

Does anyone have insight on the following questions:

- Take FIKI, as it might save your behind one day, or leave it and avoid the hassle? 

- What is the additional cost of maintaining FIKI on an Ovation/Acclaim versus not having it?

Thanks!

 

[jlunseth]

1 hour ago, Flyphilly said:

Hi all - My name is Phil - new to the forum, have really enjoyed reading through threads so far, thank you all for making this place what it is.

I am considering an Ovation purchase and looking for some opinions:

Debating the value of having FIKI on a plane in the southeast - based in Atlanta, and the main reason to have it would be to bust through 1000 to 2000' cloud layers on winter mornings. As much as I would never intentionally fly into known ice, there were several mornings this past winter where I delayed or chose not to fly because below 10c and visible moisture and it burned off a few hours later.

Does anyone have insight on the following questions:

- Take FIKI, as it might save your behind one day, or leave it and avoid the hassle? 

- What is the additional cost of maintaining FIKI on an Ovation/Acclaim versus not having it?

Thanks!

 

We have the same thing here in MN pretty much all winter, but the layer is generally a little thicker, maybe twice your numbers. The top of the layer is generally the wettest and therefore the greater risk of ice. It is not the climb that stops me as much as the need to get back down and land. That layer is generally right at the intercept altitude for approaches in our area so you would need to be in it for most of an approach, which is too much time if the layer turns out to be wet. Doesn’t generally burn off around here though. I say if you can afford an aircraft with FIKI TKS get it, but you will find it is not cheap. The retail install price is around 75k to add it to a non-FIKI aircraft, and there are some requirements, not just any aircraft can have it added.  The premium to the price of a particular used Mooney is going to be in the neighborhood of 35-50,000. My perception, FIKI planes sell really fast compared to non-FIKI, that’s the way it looks when you watch Controller.

[carusoam]

Fiki would be nice....

1) It costs a bunch of capital when buying it new...

2) Normal maintenance is running the pumps... not very expensive at all...

3) abnormal maintenance is annoying... replacing failed parts as needed... doesn’t happen very often...

4) Cost of speed is a few kias down low, less up high... not usually a concern...

 

We we’re discussing engine heaters for the Atlanta region earlier today...  it’s not as important where you are... but where you fly to, it may be critical...
 

Two primary regions of the US get extra use out of the Fiki system... The PNW, and anywhere East of the Great Lakes...

My O didn’t get the Fiki system... My first icing occurrence happened during the delivery flight to NJ...

 

If things go really well... I would by an acclaim, with FIKI and AC...  And park it in my hangar home...

(Things will have to go really well for all that ) 

Best regards,

-a-

[Flyphilly]

I have a heater on my diamond and I use it several of the winter months in Atlanta. It’s incredibly practical to enable swift early departures on cold mornings.

Thanks for your input!

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, jlunseth said:

.  The premium to the price of a particular used Mooney is going to be in the neighborhood of 35-50,000.

A 201 with tks system in Colorado sold last year at not much of any premium. It’s probably hard to find the right buyer willing to pay extra for a tks system. 
 

-Robert  

[Ragsf15e]

3 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

A 201 with tks system in Colorado sold last year at not much of any premium. It’s probably hard to find the right buyer willing to pay extra for a tks system. 
 

-Robert  

J models don’t have the legal FIKI system though, just inadvertent icing system.  Definitely less desirable if you’d like to follow the rules and launch through an icy layer.  I’d guess the inadvertent TKS system doesn’t command as much of a premium.

[carusoam]

7 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

It’s probably hard to find the right buyer willing to pay extra for a tks system. 
 

-Robert  

That is the magic of being Jimmy...  

Matching the existing buyers with proper planes...
 

People looking to buy this stuff gravitate towards Jimmy...

People looking to sell this stuff gravitate towards Jimmy...

From all around the world...

 

Technically, it isn’t magic... a tremendous amount of work, effort, risk, knowledge, preparation, partnerships, and ethics may be involved... it just looks like magic when it works out... 

Best regards,

-a-
 

 

[ArtVandelay]

J models don’t have the legal FIKI system though, just inadvertent icing system.  Definitely less desirable if you’d like to follow the rules and launch through an icy layer.  I’d guess the inadvertent TKS system doesn’t command as much of a premium.

They don’t and maybe because they use up useful load, plus I think a NA airplane isn’t a good candidate for de-icing anyway.

[carusoam]

51 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

They don’t and maybe because they use up useful load, plus I think a NA airplane isn’t a good candidate for de-icing anyway.

Why would you think that?

Ice comes often with flying in IMC... no turbo required...

Avoiding and escaping icing, climbing is one way to go... An NA IO550 is capable of flying in the low FLs...

Going around, under, or going back, also works...

On the other hand, if you have a big budget for the plane... get turbo too... 

I can be easily convinced that every airman deserves an Acclaim...

Of course, if you meant adding all these systems to a 200hp mid body... the choices get really tight... as there isn’t much extra UL to work with...

Going further down this path... there is lots of opportunity for improved UL by eliminating ancient technology and swapping in the new digital stuff...

I must have missed something, probably big and obvious... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Flyphilly said:

Hi all - My name is Phil - new to the forum, have really enjoyed reading through threads so far, thank you all for making this place what it is.

I am considering an Ovation purchase and looking for some opinions:

Debating the value of having FIKI on a plane in the southeast - based in Atlanta, and the main reason to have it would be to bust through 1000 to 2000' cloud layers on winter mornings. As much as I would never intentionally fly into known ice, there were several mornings this past winter where I delayed or chose not to fly because below 10c and visible moisture and it burned off a few hours later.

Does anyone have insight on the following questions:

- Take FIKI, as it might save your behind one day, or leave it and avoid the hassle? 

- What is the additional cost of maintaining FIKI on an Ovation/Acclaim versus not having it?

Thanks!

 

Other than the fluid, there is a filter to replace, but it’s done “on condition “ .  In 10 years I’ve changed one de-ice pump and two stall triggers on Mooney airframes.  They really are a simple and reliable system.

If the plane you buy already has the system installed, on going costs are minimal.

Clarence

[GeeBee]

I live in the ATL metro area, based at KGVL and have a FIKI Ovation. It is costly to maintain. First there is the monthly exercise, expect to push about 2 gallons of fluid. 50 bucks. I just had to overhaul the stall vane, which was 4 weeks down time and 1800. bucks. The previous owner did not maintain the system, he had to spend about 6000 getting the pumps overhauled, but even after that, I had to put in another 2000 to get it all operational because the panels were not well purged. So if you buy one, make sure it is 100% operational and if not, make the buyer fix it right. 

That all said, I sought and wanted a FIKI airplane. My missions take me up through the mid Atlantic all times of the year. I also go to the Dakotas in fall and winter for hunting.  It takes up a lot of useful load, but my mission is usually just me and my wife. If they have a gross weight increase however, I will buy it. The safety and security of an IFR dispatch with a FIKI airplane cannot be understated. I can think of 4 missions last year I would have canceled without FIKI.

The good news for you, is I'm local! I built a purge unit which you are welcome to borrow should you need it. I also have spare seals, B nuts, pressure test plugs etc. 

[aviatoreb]

14 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I live in the ATL metro area, based at KGVL and have a FIKI Ovation. It is costly to maintain. First there is the monthly exercise, expect to push about 2 gallons of fluid. 50 bucks. I just had to overhaul the stall vane, which was 4 weeks down time and 1800. bucks. The previous owner did not maintain the system, he had to spend about 6000 getting the pumps overhauled, but even after that, I had to put in another 2000 to get it all operational because the panels were not well purged. So if you buy one, make sure it is 100% operational and if not, make the buyer fix it right. 

That all said, I sought and wanted a FIKI airplane. My missions take me up through the mid Atlantic all times of the year. I also go to the Dakotas in fall and winter for hunting.  It takes up a lot of useful load, but my mission is usually just me and my wife. If they have a gross weight increase however, I will buy it. The safety and security of an IFR dispatch with a FIKI airplane cannot be understated. I can think of 4 missions last year I would have canceled without FIKI.

The good news for you, is I'm local! I built a purge unit which you are welcome to borrow should you need it. I also have spare seals, B nuts, pressure test plugs etc. 

That's a lot of fluid you push monthly on a maintenance basis.

I just wet the wings every month until I see fluid streaming back from all panels and that seems to take a half gallon or less per month.

[Davidv]

59 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I live in the ATL metro area, based at KGVL and have a FIKI Ovation. It is costly to maintain. First there is the monthly exercise, expect to push about 2 gallons of fluid. 50 bucks. I just had to overhaul the stall vane, which was 4 weeks down time and 1800. bucks. The previous owner did not maintain the system, he had to spend about 6000 getting the pumps overhauled, but even after that, I had to put in another 2000 to get it all operational because the panels were not well purged. So if you buy one, make sure it is 100% operational and if not, make the buyer fix it right. 

That all said, I sought and wanted a FIKI airplane. My missions take me up through the mid Atlantic all times of the year. I also go to the Dakotas in fall and winter for hunting.  It takes up a lot of useful load, but my mission is usually just me and my wife. If they have a gross weight increase however, I will buy it. The safety and security of an IFR dispatch with a FIKI airplane cannot be understated. I can think of 4 missions last year I would have canceled without FIKI.

The good news for you, is I'm local! I built a purge unit which you are welcome to borrow should you need it. I also have spare seals, B nuts, pressure test plugs etc. 

Something I’ve wondered is the amount of ice it can comfortably handle.  Light rime? Moderate? Clear? What’s been your most severe encounter with the system? 
 

it’s the one thing I wish my plane had.

[ArtVandelay]

Why would you think that?
Ice comes often with flying in IMC... no turbo required...
Avoiding and escaping icing, climbing is one way to go... An NA IO550 is capable of flying in the low FLs...

Because turbos fly higher and allow you to quickly climb above the ice/weather. NA not so much, especially the J, especially once in the teens.

[Tim Jodice]

They suggest that you overhaul the metering pump every 5 years or 2000 hours. certainly not practical for most people so the have a service bulletin to check it.

https://www.cav-systems.com/store/tks-pump-flow-rate-test-kit-mooney/

mine hadn't be overhauled ever. installed in 88. $3100 for an overhaul, filter, seals and shipping. 

 

[jlunseth]

8 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

A 201 with tks system in Colorado sold last year at not much of any premium. It’s probably hard to find the right buyer willing to pay extra for a tks system. 
 

-Robert  

Which system though? FIKI is usually a premium. Inadvertent is not because it does not provide legal dispatchability, and it is actually more costly to convert an inadvertent system to FIKI because the inadvertent must be all removed (that is from CAV) and there is a cost to that. I was not aware that a J could be FIKI because of the aircraft system requirements to install FIKI. If an ad say “complete TKS” or “great TKS” but does not have the acronym FIKI in it, you can be pretty sure it is not a FIKI system. There is a Bravo on Controller right now that says “complete TKS” and on the panel it is placarded “Not for Flight into Known Ice.”

[milotron]

I have a non-FIKI TKS system on my M20K. Aside from a backup fluid pump and heated stall vane, it is identical to the FIKI version. Same panels, same fluid flow, etc.

They couldn't certify it on my aircraft as it has the 262 mod which they don't have an STC for, only the 252 version. Part of the requirement for FIKI is dual alternators, which I have but it is not a virgin airframe.

It is an effective system with low maintenance. I have chased some minor leaks on mine but a seal kit for the entire system is less than $100 from CAV.

Fluid is expensive for me in western Canada primarily due to crazy shipping costs. Nobody stocks it locally and FBOs here don't carry it.

I don't plan for icing routes as one shouldn't, but it is great to have some confidence for an out if it is encountered, and I have used it several times for this.

[jlunseth]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Why would you think that?

Ice comes often with flying in IMC... no turbo required...

 

I have run into ice at just 10,000. Was cruising home over the tops one evening during the summer, somewhat cool day, the clouds got a little higher and we dipped through some tops. Picked up ice pretty fast. It was easy to get out of, it was CAVU above so I just climbed to 12,000 (with an amendment from ATC of course). I have lots of opportunities to fly through ice all winter long at 2-6,000, I just don’t take the opportunities. Good time to get the annual done.

I will say this, there is not always ice in a low layer and the temp does not always continue to fall with altitude. On the handful of occasions I have climbed through a low layer, I often found that there was an inversion of sorts, the temp would be stable (not falling) in the layer, so if was not freezing at, say, 1,000 AGL, then it would not get any colder going through the layer and might actually be warmer immediately above the layer, when I broke out. Also, not every layer produces ice even when the temperature is below freezing, it seems that if the density is too thin, there won’t be ice. But these are gambles, not things I have done for years. As I said earlier, the biggest issue for me is not climbing up through a thin layer, that would go fast, it would be the need to come back down and possibly get held in the layer by ATC, or the need to fly most of an approach in the layer, that would be bad, very bad.

[MIm20c]

11 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

Which system though? FIKI is usually a premium. Inadvertent is not because it does not provide legal dispatchability, and it is actually more costly to convert an inadvertent system to FIKI because the inadvertent must be all removed (that is from CAV) and there is a cost to that. I was not aware that a J could be FIKI because of the aircraft system requirements to install FIKI. If an ad say “complete TKS” or “great TKS” but does not have the acronym FIKI in it, you can be pretty sure it is not a FIKI system. There is a Bravo on Controller right now that says “complete TKS” and on the panel it is placarded “Not for Flight into Known Ice.”

Many of the inadvertent systems did not include the slinger ring and just used the heated prop option. I’m guessing the complete system is referring to that. I would trust the “complete system” as it protects the antennas/windshield/fuselage that the other one doesn’t.  If buying a plane with the hot prop/tks system I would pay to upgrade...not sure if the cost. 

[jlunseth]

27 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Many of the inadvertent systems did not include the slinger ring and just used the heated prop option. I’m guessing the complete system is referring to that. I would trust the “complete system” as it protects the antennas/windshield/fuselage that the other one doesn’t.  If buying a plane with the hot prop/tks system I would pay to upgrade...not sure if the cost. 

There are two issues with the Inadvertent system in my view. One, it is not legal for flight into known ice, which means you take a chance with your license any time you fly in conditions that are likely to produce ice. Two, the reason it is not FIKI is that it depends on single-point-of-failure systems such as one alternator plus a lack of backup battery capacity. As I have written elsewhere, I have seen enough alternator failures to know not to stake my life and that of my passengers on a system that “might” work while flying an approach in icing conditions. If I could get one for free, maybe. It would be a “better than nothing” scenario. I have what was once regarded as a deicing system on my aircraft, I have a hot prop. I keep it maintained. I have used it. Better not to have the engine fall off the aircraft because one prop shed ice and the other did not. But it adds nothing to aircraft value and does not give me dispatchability.

With single-point-of-failure systems it is not a matter of whether, it is a matter of when.

[Tim Jodice]

all J models are inadvertent systems. My experience is the same as @milotron they are a great tool to have if you regularly fly in the winter. 

my experience is the same as @jlunseth many times when there should be ice (standard temperature decrease with altitude) there isn't or you on top before it goes below freezing. Flights you probably wouldn't try if you didn't have a way to keep the ice off if it was there.

[Tim Jodice]

18 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

But it adds nothing to aircraft value and does not give me dispatchability. I  disagree. If it had no value why would inadvertent systems exist? They are expensive to buy, maintain and they weight about 100 pounds with fluid.

With single-point-of-failure systems it is not a matter of whether, it is a matter of when.

One thing I don't like about texting is that it is hard to show emotion. please don't take this like I am being fresh I am just saying it as a matter of fact. 

If we were hung up on single point failure why are we flying single engine airplanes?

 

[Mufflerbearing]

I have FIKI on my M20S Screaming Eagle.  One of several reasons I bought this particular airplane.  It is not expensive to maintain, just do it.  The cost comes in when it is neglected.  It is excellent and now I wouldn't have a plane without it.  Than again, I live in Idaho and not Arizona.

 

[Ragsf15e]

9 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

They don’t and maybe because they use up useful load, plus I think a NA airplane isn’t a good candidate for de-icing anyway.

I agree turbo is real useful in ice avoidance.  The best ice avoidance asset on the Meridian I fly at work is the PT-6.  However, I live in Spokane where we have a low overcast all winter.  Maybe 1-2000’ thick.  Definitely ice from November through March.  Clear above, and you’ll know that before takeoff.  An ovation with tks is perfect here.

As long as you don’t treat the tks as a way to get through a front full of icing and/or cruise in it.  It shouldn’t be like the Cirrus parachute convincing you it’s ok to take extra risk.  

PS- I’m not bashing the parachute and I’m not even sure I agree with the argument, but it’s just an example!

[GeeBee]

7 hours ago, Davidv said:

Something I’ve wondered is the amount of ice it can comfortably handle.  Light rime? Moderate? Clear? What’s been your most severe encounter with the system? 
 

it’s the one thing I wish my plane had.

I have been in moderate icing and found it quite effective. I like it better than boots. I've flown them all, bleed air, boots and TKS. Bleed air works great if you have the engine power which many airplanes do not (like the MD-80). TKS IMHO works better than boots.

As to my pushing 50 bucks worth a fluid every month. Yep I do and I find the reliability of the system greatly increases the more you use it. Two gallons of fluid a month is what I have found to keep the thing in really good shape. You can do less, but it takes longer for the system to pressure up etc. This way, lights go green the minute I hit the switch.