Did my first no flap landing

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The inlet check valve isn’t working. When you pump the handle, you are creating a vacuum in the pump cylinder (cavitation). That is why it springs back. The vacuum is pulling the handle back.

This can happen if someone replaced or stretched the spring on the inlet check valve. Remember that it is atmospheric pressure driving the fluid into the cylinder. The pressure on the ball must be less than atmospheric pressure (~15 PSI at sea level) multiplied by the area of the ball (0.012 sq in). About 1 oz of force. This pressure decreases with altitude, so your pump may work at a low elevation airport and not at a higher elevation airport,

Agree fluid is not getting past the inlet valve.  Given he made no reference to the pump being disassembled it seems unlikely that the problem related to spring pressure.  What is more likely is a physical blockage or malfunction.

[N201MKTurbo]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Agree fluid is not getting past the inlet valve.  Given he made no reference to the pump being disassembled it seems unlikely that the problem related to spring pressure.  What is more likely is a physical blockage or malfunction.

Absolutely could be that.

[carusoam]

Simple things first...

0) Check the fluid level in the reservoir... flaps are first to become inop, brakes come next....

1) Check the flap control wire to see if it is connected at both ends...

2) See it operate the valve correctly...

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[mike20papa]

99.9% of my landings in my A model are done "no flaps"  I can put that old bird down - nose high - the tires don't ever squawk or complain.  walk it down the run way on just the mains - nothing (except landing a boeing A75N1) can compare.

[carusoam]

Quick question for M20P...

How much MP would be needed to keep the nose from dropping down?

Just a guess would be fine...  I’m just wondering...

Best regards,

-a-

[oldguyscanfly]

In my 65 E, the second landing i made during transition training (with a CFI that could be my grandchild, and a lot less hrs than I had, and no Mooney time) was no flaps, because I did not position the flap lever to the "down" position before pumping them down. It was the best landing I made that day.

Most of my landings since have been 20 degrees to full, and have had several "greasers".  I have found that all depends on speed control. My no flap landing if i remember correctly was about 75-76 over the numbers. My plane has full VG's and that seems to help. With flaps, very comfortable at 70-72 over the numbers, plenty of energy left for the flare.

I will experiment with no flaps landings, stuck in Kansas for the moment so windy condition may make that a good thing to practice..... 

.

[Ibra]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

How much MP would be needed to keep the nose from dropping down?

What do you mean by nose not dropping down? keep flying level in ground effect without sinking to ground? that power may depend on your speed?
At stall speed, you need an infinite MP to keep nose up  and float forever nose up flying at "min power speed" (about 1.3*VS & 30% power)

In many types, at few kts above stall speed 40% power should keep nose up and 0fpm (about 15"MP vs 29MP?)
I expect just slightly less than that (14"?) in flare near ground effect (any effect of flaps will probably cancel out)

Edited April 27, 2020 by Ibra

[carusoam]

12 hours ago, mike20papa said:

1 hour ago, Ibra said:

What do you mean by nose not dropping down? 
 

 

walk it down the run way on just the mains - nothing (except landing a boeing A75N1) can compare.

looks like I messed up the quote function....

Ibra,  your question, the top line...

M20P, The bottom line...

 

Ross has a really interesting video of a TnG for his M20F... where he rides the wheelie.... before departing again...

And M20P mentions doing something very similar...

 

The longest I can hold the nose off is about 5 microseconds...

Of course... the machinery is different, the skill levels are different, and configuration is different...

So... What I’m asking here is... what was his power level while doing this...

Best regards,

-a-

[Ibra]

maybe I confused M20P with "pistons Mooney's", that question should go for mike20papa  

[Shadrach]

On 4/26/2020 at 7:58 PM, carusoam said:

Quick question for M20P...

How much MP would be needed to keep the nose from dropping down?

Just a guess would be fine...  I’m just wondering...

Best regards,

-a-

Do you mean to maintain a wheelie? About 1400rpm if memory serves. No flap landing are inherently nose high.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Shadrach

[steingar]

First of all, my mechanic will repair this, not me.  It is illegal for me to do so.   Moreover, he is going to remove all the cowlings next week anyway, so he'll have a good view of it all and will repair it correctly, unlike me.

I did three flaps off landings today.  No big deal. First one the other day only frightened me because I normally put in a boatload of nose up trim because of the downward pitch induced by the flaps.  No nose up trim made the front come down suddenly on landing.  I was worried I didn't know what I was doing, and needn't have done so. Flaps off landings are actually a bit easier, and I could tell on one I was coming in too fast.  Even on that one I would have easily landed the airstrip I need to hit.  I have the feel one the airplane and will have no trouble in my delivery. And yes, I found the deck angle a bit high.   It will be an expensive annual, but the first of my ownership.

Thanks everyone for the helpful suggestions.  

[ShuRugal]

Not sure how flaps on M20C work? Can they get stuck on landing position? or go asymmetric?

I see no one answered this, and it may not be relevant anymore, but...

The answers are, respectively "almost certainly not" and "absolutely not"

C model flaps are both actuated by pushrod linkages driven by a common torque tube mounted to the rear spar stub. The only way for them to get asymmetrical would be for the linkages to fail or the tube to break.

The tube is actuated by a hydraulic ram which works exactly like a floor jack - close the relief valve and pump them out. To retract, open the relief valve and aerodynamic load forces then shut. For them to get "stuck" down, the relief valve would have to fail closed. Theoretically possible, but I'd bet on the power ball first.

[carusoam]

Good catch Shu!

That one almost got away...

Somebody did define what it would take to have the flaps become independent of each other...

Something that is maintenance adjustable...

The pre-flight walk around is the accepted way to know they are not independent...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[larryb]

But.... When I bought my J 8 years ago and on my first transition training flight I did indeed have an asymmetrical flap situation. Don didn’t believe it, but looking out the window there it was. The skin on one of the flaps had lifted and was catching on the airframe and torquing the whole system. It is possible.

[Ibra]

8 hours ago, ShuRugal said:

The tube is actuated by a hydraulic ram which works exactly like a floor jack - close the relief valve and pump them out. To retract, open the relief valve and aerodynamic load forces then shut. For them to get "stuck" down, the relief valve would have to fail closed. Theoretically possible, but I'd bet on the power ball first.

I come across an aircraft on same design where they stayed stuck in down position, the school SOP (until valves get fixed ) is they will pop up when prop slip stream hit them on taxi/power checks or just before rejected takeoff, as you said the power ball always did it first with a noticeable bang sound, we never had to go for airspeed 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Ibra

[N9201A]

I always use flaps. Saves wear and tear on the gear.

Yeah, but if you always land clean, you save wear and tear on the flaps!

[robert7467]

For me when I was training for my PPL, I preferred no flaps, every time I would land with flaps, I had not so steller landings. A week before my checkride, I had to learn how to land with them. No flaps, with the lower angle of decent, final approach at 85 MPH, then bleeding it down before touchdown, I always greased my landings. I still use flaps though, but some reason in the beginning they didn't work for me. Personally, I like the more stable approach (higher speed), not having to trim and the gentle landings. I was taught by an old school flight instructor, no syllabus, but he was a really good pilot. Now that I have been inactive for 4 years, I am going to do a 4hr biannual and stick to the POH and I am going to a flight school, where I will have a syllabus instead of throwing my IFR together, like my PPL was done. My instrument rating is going to require a lot more precision and luckily since its been 4 years, its like starting over again being free of bad habits.

[steingar]

I won't disagree that no flap landings are easier.  They are.  More airspeed gives better control surface authority.  But a no flap landing will always be longer than one with flaps.  I always aim to land short, in case I really need to do so.  I use flaps for just about every landing, unless the crosswinds are that stiff.

[Yetti]

No flaps, half flaps, Full flaps.    All just tricks in the bag to pull out when you need them.

[Ibra]

14 hours ago, N9201A said:

Yeah, but if you always land clean, you save wear and tear on the flaps!

Few "wear & tear observations" from school tricycle fleet, useful to pick flap setting for the next landing 

- No flaps: front gear (+ prop strike !), crash: end of the runway

- Full flaps: main gear (+ tail skid !), crash: start of the runway

- Half flaps: suspension (+ left wing !), crash: left of the runway 

Full flaps is SOP as it tends to be cheaper for tail skid repairs 

2 hours ago, robert7467 said:

For me when I was training for my PPL, I preferred no flaps, every time I would land with flaps, I had not so steller landings

Yes, to get some PPL students past "landing/flare struggle", it is more easier with no flaps, long runway and sligthly higher speeds, BUT never hammer them to land exactly on the runway numbers, they will push the yoke forward to land 

Once getting confidence boost & depth perception it is easy to get tight on slower speed, aiming point and short stop distance, for that one may need full flaps...

Edited May 8, 2020 by Ibra

[robert7467]

7 minutes ago, Ibra said:

Few "wear & tear observations" from school tricycle fleet, useful to pick flap setting for the next landing 

- No flaps: front gear (+ prop strike !), crash: end of the runway

- Full flaps: main gear (+ tail skid !), crash: start of the runway

- Half flaps: suspension (+ left wing !), crash: left of the runway 

Full flaps is SOP as it tends to be cheaper for tail skid repairs 

Yes, to get some PPL students past "landing/flare struggle", it is more easier with no flaps, long runway and sligthly higher speeds, BUT never hammer them to land exactly on the runway numbers, they will push the yoke forward to land 

Once getting confidence boost & depth perception it is easy to get tight on slower speed, aiming point and short stop distance, for that one may need full flaps...

Yeah that was my experience, I had an 8000 runway, but also had no problems on shorter ones. Luckily now I am confident with flaps, but at first I hated them. I would just add a little at a time per landing until I felt comfortable with full. Still, when its windy, I prefer the higher speed with no flaps. No flaps keeps me on the centerline with the faster airspeed. One other thing I like about no flaps is I dont have to trim. It's just easier. This time around I am more about procedures and flying the POH. I am going to need to set it up the same every time with configuration and power settings for IFR. Since I am rusty, I look forward to not having any bad habits and I can start fresh!

[carusoam]

8 hours ago, robert7467 said:

For me when I was training for my PPL, I preferred no flaps, every time I would land with flaps, I had not so steller landings. A week before my checkride, I had to learn how to land with them. No flaps, with the lower angle of decent, final approach at 85 MPH, then bleeding it down before touchdown, I always greased my landings. I still use flaps though, but some reason in the beginning they didn't work for me. Personally, I like the more stable approach (higher speed), not having to trim and the gentle landings. I was taught by an old school flight instructor, no syllabus, but he was a really good pilot. Now that I have been inactive for 4 years, I am going to do a 4hr biannual and stick to the POH and I am going to a flight school, where I will have a syllabus instead of throwing my IFR together, like my PPL was done. My instrument rating is going to require a lot more precision and luckily since its been 4 years, its like starting over again being free of bad habits.

Aside from the speed, stall speed, and only using long runways...

+1 For what Yeti said... flaps are tools of the trade. Get used to them... so you can use them.

 

Something to consider...

I took time off from flying... about a year...

I wanted to get my IR as part of the re-familiarization effort...

I picked a school and started training...

Like, the bicycle... it all comes back pretty quickly...

Training for the IR is pretty knowledge intense...the relearning flying aspect is relaxing in comparison...

 

Are you ready for the Mooney now?

Nice to see you...

Best regards,

-a-

[MBDiagMan]

I landed my C with no flaps and it behaved extremely well.  Coming from a Cessna 140 I carried over my “I don’t need no stinking flaps” mentality.  When I got the F I learned very quickly that when it comes flaps and landing it might as well be made by a different manufacturer.  I don’t even think about landing it with no flaps now.  It lands full flaps and most all of the nose up trim.

[Yetti]

The flaps on the Mooney are smaller than a C172.   Two things with full flap landing.  I think they push air down on the runway during landing.   They are only about 9 inches off the ground.   If you are full flaps and do a go around it is probably at full nose up trim.  add a bunch of power and there can be a departure stall.   If you are half flaps on landing trim is right about at take off settings.   I think this is why the manual says "flaps as needed"  

Also the rule of no turn under 90 mph with no flaps in the pattern.

 

 

[ShuRugal]

The flaps on the Mooney are smaller than a C172.   Two things with full flap landing.  I think they push air down on the runway during landing.   They are only about 9 inches off the ground.   If you are full flaps and do a go around it is probably at full nose up trim.  add a bunch of power and there can be a departure stall.   If you are half flaps on landing trim is right about at take off settings.   I think this is why the manual says "flaps as needed"  
Also the rule of no turn under 90 mph with no flaps in the pattern.
 

 

Have taken off with full flaps and landing trim a couple times. Doesn't require any special effort, is anything it is even smoother than half flaps. Doesn't rotate at all, just kind of floats up off the runway at 60 MIAS and settles into a climb about halfway between Vx and Vy.