1977 J panel upgrades

[dzeleski]

Hi all, so I ended up picking up a 77 M20J thats in pretty good shape, just needs a little panel update to get it to where I want it.

Since this is my first aircraft and ill be using the upgrades to chase my IR I figured I would ask for some opinions on what I plan on doing with it.

The plane has an ancient KX-170B and indicator that is not functioning, this will get pulled and junked. There is also a stormscope that is functioning but is not serviceable as its a WX-900, I plan on removing this and either selling for parts or just junking I see no use for it personally. Finally there is a working Garmin 430 non-WAAS GPS I plan on keeping this and eventually upgrading to WAAS to have a secondary GPS and keep a NAV radio.

My plan for this year is to put in a GNC-355 and a new indicator, this gets me a working secondary radio as well as LPV approaches. On top of that I would like to replace my current EI FP-5 fuel totalizator and JPI edm-700, with an edm-830. I would use this to train and get my IR. Budget for this year is roughly ~15k.

Next year I would like to do dual G5s and a GFC-500 AP, as well as getting that 430 upgraded to waas enabled.

Eventually, I would upgrade the 830 to a 900 or 930 to start removing some of the older gauges from the panel, at this point I would probably have a brand new panel made.

Thoughts? Anything not make sense or should I look at anything else? Thanks!

Edited January 1, 2020 by dzeleski

[ArtVandelay]

Skip the 830 step, go straight for the 900.

[Oldguy]

Welcome aboard! Everyone here will be glad to tell you where you should spend your money. It is a great spectator sport!

From personal experience, if your EDM 700 and FP-5 are both working and you know you are going to a EDM 900/930 in the future (near or not), save the money you would spend on the EDM 830 and either live with what you have, or skip straight to the 900/930. The money you would spend on the 830 upgrade will take a good bite out of what  you will spend on your final engine monitor, and you will not want to kick yourself when you do the second upgrade. Ask me how I know....

 

[rbridges]

post a pic of your panel.  It would help see what you have and the real estate available.

[MIm20c]

Congrats on the new aircraft. Only suggestions would be to consider upgrading the display only on the 700 to a 730 for around $1k or go straight to the 900.  The other is to save the money on the 430 and not do the waas upgrade for the backup role. 

[carusoam]

Has this plane reached the level of instant forever-plane?

Do you like to spend chunks of 10amu at a time..?

Has anything changed with how you intend to use the plane?

We are really good at spending OPM.

It is an excellent team sport!

best regards,

-a-

[EricJ]

50 minutes ago, dzeleski said:

Hi all, so I ended up picking up a 77 M20J thats in pretty good shape, just needs a little panel update to get it to where I want it.

An excellent choice. 

Quote

The plane has an ancient KX-170B and indicator that is not functioning, this will get pulled and junked. There is also a stormscope that is functioning but is not serviceable as its a WX-900, I plan on removing this and either selling for parts or just junking I see no use for it personally. Finally there is a working Garmin 430 non-WAAS GPS I plan on keeping this and eventually upgrading to WAAS to have a secondary GPS and keep a NAV radio.

My plan for this year is to put in a GNC-355 and a new indicator, this gets me a working secondary radio as well as LPV approaches. On top of that I would like to replace my current EI FP-5 fuel totalizator and JPI edm-700, with an edm-830. I would use this to train and get my IR. Budget for this year is roughly ~15k.

I would suggest just replacing the 430 with an Avidyne IFD440, which is a slide-in replacement that will incur an installation cost of $0.   You can then sell the 430 and with that money and what you saved on the installation of a GNC probably be ahead, and have a new nav receiver as well.   The IFD440 will already have WAAS, LPV, etc.

You can do likewise with the KX-170B.   Find a used TKM MX-170C, which is a nice upgrade, as it is a slide-in replacement for a KX-170B and will incur no installation costs.   You can do it yourself as owner maintenance and make the logbook entry yourself.   That won't fix the CDI indicator if it's actually broken, but if the radio is the problem this will cure it completely.   They can be found used on ebay or here or elsewhere or you can even buy a new one from TKM or aircraftspruce for more money.

 

Quote

Next year I would like to do dual G5s and a GFC-500 AP, as well as getting that 430 upgraded to waas enabled.

Eventually, I would upgrade the 830 to a 900 or 930 to start removing some of the older gauges from the panel, at this point I would probably have a brand new panel made.

Thoughts? Anything not make sense or should I look at anything else? Thanks!

Dual G5s is a good idea, and, as others have mentioned, don't bother with the interim step of an 830, just get a 900 and be done with it.   Much of the cost of the JPI is installation, anyway, plus with the 900 you can delete most/all of the engine instruments and free up a bunch of panel space.

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by EricJ

[dzeleski]

@rbridges Added some photos, it was getting dark so they are a little blurry.

5 hours ago, MIm20c said:

Congrats on the new aircraft. Only suggestions would be to consider upgrading the display only on the 700 to a 730 for around $1k or go straight to the 900.  The other is to save the money on the 430 and not do the waas upgrade for the backup role. 

This is not something I considered, this might be what I do for now. My EI FP-5 is intermittent at times (randomly reads 0 then pops back up), so I would just need a new flow sensor and maybe some wiring.

5 hours ago, carusoam said:

Has this plane reached the level of instant forever-plane?

Do you like to spend chunks of 10amu at a time..?

Has anything changed with how you intend to use the plane?

We are really good at spending OPM.

It is an excellent team sport!

best regards,

-a-

I have zero plans to get rid of it, I very much enjoy flying it and it has ruined flying 172s or 182s for me. Im not trying to wastefully spend money but the current avionics do not give me the confidence to fly in IMC. I need to at least get WAAS and a working secondary radio.

5 hours ago, EricJ said:

An excellent choice. 

I would suggest just replacing the 430 with an Avidyne IFD440, which is a slide-in replacement that will incur an installation cost of $0.   You can then sell the 430 and with that money and what you saved on the installation of a GNC probably be ahead, and have a new nav receiver as well.   The IFD440 will already have WAAS, LPV, etc.

You can do likewise with the KX-170B.   Find a used TKM MX-170C, which is a nice upgrade, as it is a slide-in replacement for a KX-170B and will incur no installation costs.   You can do it yourself as owner maintenance and make the logbook entry yourself.   That won't fix the CDI indicator if it's actually broken, but if the radio is the problem this will cure it completely.   They can be found used on ebay or here or elsewhere or you can even buy a new one from TKM or aircraftspruce for more money.

 

Dual G5s is a good idea, and, as others have mentioned, don't bother with the interim step of an 830, just get a 900 and be done with it.   Much of the cost of the JPI is installation, anyway, plus with the 900 you can delete most/all of the engine instruments and free up a bunch of panel space.

 

I did not realize the 440 was a slide in replacement, ill need a new GPS antenna and cable for sure though. That is definitely an interesting option. I actually dont know if the indicator is working or not but its quite old and im not sure I want to trust it regardless. The only benefit to going with the 355 is I would have 2 GPS units if one failed.

[Baker Avionics]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

An excellent choice. 

I would suggest just replacing the 430 with an Avidyne IFD440, which is a slide-in replacement that will incur an installation cost of $0.   You can then sell the 430 and with that money and what you saved on the installation of a GNC probably be ahead, and have a new nav receiver as well.   The IFD440 will already have WAAS, LPV, etc.

You can do likewise with the KX-170B.   Find a used TKM MX-170C, which is a nice upgrade, as it is a slide-in replacement for a KX-170B and will incur no installation costs.   You can do it yourself as owner maintenance and make the logbook entry yourself.   That won't fix the CDI indicator if it's actually broken, but if the radio is the problem this will cure it completely.   They can be found used on ebay or here or elsewhere or you can even buy a new one from TKM or aircraftspruce for more money.

 

Dual G5s is a good idea, and, as others have mentioned, don't bother with the interim step of an 830, just get a 900 and be done with it.   Much of the cost of the JPI is installation, anyway, plus with the 900 you can delete most/all of the engine instruments and free up a bunch of panel space.

 

Eric, the only caveat I would put in here is instead of the Dual G5's I would go with the E5 for upgradeability and overall better unit, in my opinion only. 

[PTK]

1 hour ago, Baker Avionics said:

Eric, the only caveat I would put in here is instead of the Dual G5's I would go with the E5 for upgradeability and overall better unit, in my opinion only. 

Interesting you advise E5 over dual G5s. Especially so considering the SAIB turned AD against Aspen boxes due to blanking out in flight. And now the issue plaguing the E5. 
Are you an authorized dealer for both Aspen and Garmin? Or just Aspen and are therefore biased against Garmin?

[rbridges]

23 minutes ago, PTK said:

Interesting you advise E5 over dual G5s. Especially so considering the SAIB turned AD against Aspen boxes due to blanking out in flight. And now the issue plaguing the E5. 
Are you an authorized dealer for both Aspen and Garmin? Or are you biased against Garmin?

isn't that limited only to people running ads-b through their aspen units?  I skimmed through the AD, but can't say I know the details.

[rbridges]

3 hours ago, dzeleski said:

Hi all, so I ended up picking up a 77 M20J thats in pretty good shape, just needs a little panel update to get it to where I want it.

Since this is my first aircraft and ill be using the upgrades to chase my IR I figured I would ask for some opinions on what I plan on doing with it.

The plane has an ancient KX-170B and indicator that is not functioning, this will get pulled and junked. There is also a stormscope that is functioning but is not serviceable as its a WX-900, I plan on removing this and either selling for parts or just junking I see no use for it personally. Finally there is a working Garmin 430 non-WAAS GPS I plan on keeping this and eventually upgrading to WAAS to have a secondary GPS and keep a NAV radio.

My plan for this year is to put in a GNC-355 and a new indicator, this gets me a working secondary radio as well as LPV approaches. On top of that I would like to replace my current EI FP-5 fuel totalizator and JPI edm-700, with an edm-830. I would use this to train and get my IR. Budget for this year is roughly ~15k.

Next year I would like to do dual G5s and a GFC-500 AP, as well as getting that 430 upgraded to waas enabled.

Eventually, I would upgrade the 830 to a 900 or 930 to start removing some of the older gauges from the panel, at this point I would probably have a brand new panel made.

Thoughts? Anything not make sense or should I look at anything else? Thanks!

 I know opinions vary, but I'd keep the stormscope until it doesn't work.  I have a wx-1000, and I prefer having it in conjunction with ads-b weather.

[PTK]

48 minutes ago, rbridges said:

isn't that limited only to people running ads-b through their aspen units?  I skimmed through the AD, but can't say I know the details.

The relevant point is that there is nevertheless an AD on Aspen boxes for safety of flight issues. Now we learn that multiple E5’s have been reported with similar issues. Wondering on what basis does he recommend E5 over G5s. Is he an authorized dealer for both or just Aspen? Or is he biased against Garmin because he can only sell Aspen? In other words can an avionics shop really be unbiased if it’s not an authorized dealer for both?

[carusoam]

Message for @dzeleski...

Somebody brought up two resources for onboard weather...

Not sure if you are familiar...

Strategic vs tactical...  

Have one of each...

ADSB/XM....  big picture, color graphics, but delayed by too many minutes...

Stormscopes and strikefinders.... where is that lightning hitting right now..? great for avoiding having the wings getting ripped off...

 

If not familiar, ask...

PP thoughts only, not a weatherman or CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

So you have a decent panel.  The strike finder is important as long as it works. 170 when working are solid backups.  Get a pad and a Stratux. I prefer an android and Stratux.   Save the 10K for things you are going to need to fix when you start flying it a bunch.   When were the mags done last?   Does it have shoulder belts?

There is an A/P switch.   What is the A/P?  Right now there is a gap on the next gen A/Ps

Some people have posted pictures of how their panels are arranged.  You are going to need alot of arranging.

 

[dzeleski]

43 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Message for @dzeleski...

Somebody brought up two resources for onboard weather...

Not sure if you are familiar...

Strategic vs tactical...  

Have one of each...

ADSB/XM....  big picture, color graphics, but delayed by too many minutes...

Stormscopes and strikefinders.... where is that lightning hitting right now..? great for avoiding having the wings getting ripped off...

 

If not familiar, ask...

PP thoughts only, not a weatherman or CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

Personally I’m not going be flying between storms to the point that I think it will be useful. If the weather is that crap I have no issues hanging on the ground for a bit waiting for it to pass.

2 minutes ago, Yetti said:

So you have a decent panel.  The strike finder is important as long as it works. 170 when working are solid backups.  Get a pad and a Stratux. I prefer an android and Stratux.   Save the 10K for things you are going to need to fix when you start flying it a bunch.   When were the mags done last?   Does it have shoulder belts?

There is an A/P switch.   What is the A/P?  Right now there is a gap on the next gen A/Ps

Some people have posted pictures of how their panels are arranged.  You are going to need alot of arranging.

 

The 170 is definitely inop right now, I think I’ll try and swap it out with something as a first step. Flying out of a Charlie and right next to the NY bravo is very annoying single radio. 

Mags were done 3 weeks ago. Already has shoulder belts. I have money set aside for any issues on top of this 15k for upgrades. The plane came out of annual from maxwell and I flew it home 1400 miles to NY without a single issue. Engine is a factory new and has 209 hours on it, runs great ROP, needs the #4 gami injector re adjusted as it struggles to go more then 20 degrees lean of peak. Already working with gami on that.

I use foreflight with a sentry.

AP is an STEC 30.

Yeah the panel is kinda all over the place but it’s not terrible, lots of stuff installed in the mid 2000s. I just need a better GPS to do my IR on. I plan on flying to gatts this summer and doing the 7 day course they have.

[Marauder]

isn't that limited only to people running ads-b through their aspen units?  I skimmed through the AD, but can't say I know the details.

Yes, it was to turn off the ADS-B until the release of the firmware fix (which has been out some time now). Peter Garmin is just spewing his anti-Aspen rhetoric again.

Still waiting for him to install dual G5s to go along with that new GTX-345 he just installed. Oh wait, the G5’s don’t display traffic or weather, my bad.


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[Yetti]

The 17O take up a bunch of real estate and you don't have much to work with in the Mooney.  If you are thinking garmin then replace 170 with GNC355 like you were thinking and new indicator.   Then fly.

[Marauder]

The 170 is definitely inop right now, I think I’ll try and swap it out with something as a first step. Flying out of a Charlie and right next to the NY bravo is very annoying single radio. 
Mags were done 3 weeks ago. Already has shoulder belts. I have money set aside for any issues on top of this 15k for upgrades. The plane came out of annual from maxwell and I flew it home 1400 miles to NY without a single issue. Engine is a factory new and has 209 hours on it, runs great ROP, needs the #4 gami injector re adjusted as it struggles to go more then 20 degrees lean of peak. Already working with gami on that.
I use foreflight with a sentry.
AP is an STEC 30.
Yeah the panel is kinda all over the place but it’s not terrible, lots of stuff installed in the mid 2000s. I just need a better GPS to do my IR on. I plan on flying to gatts this summer and doing the 7 day course they have.

I might have missed it in the thread. What do you have onboard for ADS-B? I see a GTX-327, is there a GDL-88 attached to it?

As for the StormScope, I personally would leave it in. When you get your IR, you’ll learn that it is also helpful with real time determination of cloud to cloud lightning that is found in a building storm. I believe the recent lightning addition to FIS-B is only displaying cloud to ground strikes. I had an old WX-8 that I replaced with a WX-500 that displays in multiple devices in my plane.

I had a KX-170B. It was great when it worked. The plastic gears in the tuning mechanism were always giving me trouble. The GPS units are pretty reliable today. To save money, you could go with GNC 255 basic Nav/Com.

As for FP-5. Mine is a FP-5L which has the fuel pressure option. It may not look like much, but it is a primary gauge which can be used as the primary gauge if your factory FP gauge fails. It is part of my redundancy strategy. In addition, EI is a great company to work with. When I installed their MP and RPM gauges I discovered that my 23 year old FP-5L had incandescent backlighting instead of the newer LED backlighting. For a really reasonable price, they upgraded mine and did a checkout of the unit.

I agree with the JPI 900 over the 830. I went the 830 to 900 route. Once I made a decision to clean up my panel and get rid of the old factory gauges, you will need a primary instrument. The 900 is one, the 830 is not.

Your 77 panel looks a lot like my 75 panel did before the upgrades. I would get a decent GPS installed and wait on the rest (the only exception might be to figure out your backup Com situation). Once you know what kind of IFR flying you’re doing, you have a better perspective on what you really need or want.






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[dzeleski]

10 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

I might have missed it in the thread. What do you have onboard for ADS-B? I see a GTX-327, is there a GDL-88 attached to it?

As for the StormScope, I personally would leave it in. When you get your IR, you’ll learn that it is also helpful with real time determination of cloud to cloud lightning that is found in a building storm. I believe the recent lightning addition to FIS-B is only displaying cloud to ground strikes. I had an old WX-8 that I replaced with a WX-500 that displays in multiple devices in my plane.

I had a KX-170B. It was great when it worked. The plastic gears in the tuning mechanism were always giving me trouble. The GPS units are pretty reliable today. To save money, you could go with GNC 255 basic Nav/Com.

As for FP-5. Mine is a FP-5L which has the fuel pressure option. It may not look like much, but it is a primary gauge which can be used as the primary gauge if your factory FP gauge fails. It is part of my redundancy strategy. In addition, EI is a great company to work with. When I installed their MP and RPM gauges I discovered that my 23 year old FP-5L had incandescent backlighting instead of the newer LED backlighting. For a really reasonable price, they upgraded mine and did a checkout of the unit.

I agree with the JPI 900 over the 830. I went the 830 to 900 route. Once I made a decision to clean up my panel and get rid of the old factory gauges, you will need a primary instrument. The 900 is one, the 830 is not.

Your 77 panel looks a lot like my 75 panel did before the upgrades. I would get a decent GPS installed and wait on the rest (the only exception might be to figure out your backup Com situation). Once you know what kind of IFR flying you’re doing, you have a better perspective on what you really need or want.






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It has a GDL-82 installed. I’ll leave the stormscope since it works but I think once it hits the can that might be the end of it. We will see when I start flying in actual

That’s a very nice looking panel!

I think that’s probably what I’m leaning towards. Get my backup nav/com working, and I really think that 440 might end up being what I do.

Definitely have a few calls to make 

[PTK]

The self appointed/self anointed from the peanut gallery is at it again I see! 
What firmware? They released a software update but their brand new E5 blanks out? What a bummer! It tries to display ads-b in but can’t. My bad!

[Yetti]

You can also consider the Dynon Skyview if you like the integrated route.   There seems to be several threads on getting all the stuff from various manufactures to work together.

[carusoam]

two important things the IR pilot needs to be familiar with...

1) Icing... where it is, how to avoid it... how to get out of it when you happen to find it first hand...

2) Thunderstorms...where they are, how to avoid them... how to get out of them if you happen upon them...

With Ice, your plane can carry more than your wings can lift... it also affects the amount of thrust you engine can generate...

With thunderstorms, your plane can go fast and far enough to find them... it is the only force that will bend a Mooney wing in flight, except possibly bumping into another plane...

You get a few minutes to decide on these things... it helps to have good in cockpit devices to make proper decisions...

Best regards,

-a-

[Andy95W]

39 minutes ago, PTK said:

The self appointed/self anointed from the peanut gallery is at it again I see! 
 

Seriously dude, don't you see that your statement above applies much more to you than anyone else who's posted here?

[Marauder]

The self appointed/self anointed from the peanut gallery is at it again I see! 
What firmware? They released a software update but their brand new E5 blanks out? What a bummer! It tries to display ads-b in but can’t. My bad!

You shouldn’t be so hard on yourself. I certainly didn’t call you a member of the peanut gallery, sounds like you have.

As an educated consumer, please read the actual content of the Aspen AD and the supporting Service Bulletin issued by Aspen to address it. Your information about Aspen products again is incorrect. Just for the record, the root cause of the AD was erroneous information sent up to the Aspen by the ADS-B network. A few facts:

1) E5 units were not affected by the AD, only PFD/MFDs that were running firmware 2.9.
2) PFD/MFDs running firmware less than 2.9 were not affected by the AD.
3) Units that did not have the ADS-B turned on, were not affected by the AD.
4) Only certain locations caused the problem. Ironically, one of the areas was New Jersey. Any coincidence?
5) Aspen addressed the issue quickly and issued 2.9.0.1 in March. AD was issued for 2-7-19.
6) This Aspen owner who was running 2.9 never saw the error, even when flying near South Jersey Regional.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/0/395cf1d74b063ffc8625838b004f6255/$FILE/2019-01-02.pdf

https://aspenavionics.com/documents/MSB2018-01.pdf


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