Surefly SIM4N install in an M20C PIREP

[Igor_U]

11 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I just installed a Surefly and we did remove the SOS.  It was super simple.  I also have a 201 windshield, but wait for it, there were nut plates on the back of the panel!  Oh yeah!  Just two simple screws removed on the engine side and the sos popped off.  Unfortunately, I found out about the nutplates after I had removed the instrument glareshield and defrost vent tubing so I could get a hand/finger back there to hold the loose nut I assumed would be there.  None of that work was needed, but I still got cut hands.  

Last year I changed out the voltage regulator.  That most certainly did not have nut plates.  It’s luck of the draw.

Good to know and I hope my plane has the same.

I can actually see the portion of SOS box when glare-shield is removed but not the fasteners from the inside. Box looks similar to the picture below (except is black) with wires going into terminals. I would need a bore-scope (or inspection mirror) to have another look but seems wires could be just pulled out of the terminals.

I don't really see how you could have nutplates unless your SOS box is different. Screws are comming from engine side of the firewall through the flange of the box. One way or the other I'll find that this weekend. 

 

[Ragsf15e]

19 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

Good to know and I hope my plane has the same.

I can actually see the portion of SOS box when glare-shield is removed but not the fasteners from the inside. Box looks similar to the picture below (except is black) with wires going into terminals. I would need a bore-scope (or inspection mirror) to have another look but seems wires could be just pulled out of the terminals.

I don't really see how you could have nutplates unless your SOS box is different. Screws are comming from engine side of the firewall through the flange of the box. One way or the other I'll find that this weekend. 

 

Mine looked exactly like that.

Maybe nut plates was the wrong term... the nuts were secured to the interior side of the instrument panel and we simply unscrewed the sos and then put the screws back in.  We capped off the wires after unhooking them since I didn’t want to mess with the ignition wiring and removing them there.

[Ragsf15e]

26 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

Good to know and I hope my plane has the same.

I can actually see the portion of SOS box when glare-shield is removed but not the fasteners from the inside. Box looks similar to the picture below (except is black) with wires going into terminals. I would need a bore-scope (or inspection mirror) to have another look but seems wires could be just pulled out of the terminals.

I don't really see how you could have nutplates unless your SOS box is different. Screws are comming from engine side of the firewall through the flange of the box. One way or the other I'll find that this weekend. 

 

Oh, wait, are you saying your sos is on the interior side of the firewall?  Mine was in the engine compartment, on the engine side of the firewall.  Yeah, I’d leave that alone if it’s behind your panel.  Ugh.

[DXB]

1 hour ago, ragedracer1977 said:

It seems like it wouldn't matter.  If the surefly is firing at 26 degrees and higher than TDC, the other mag will be firing well after the fuel has ignited.  It should just be a wasted spark.

I think the old fixed timed mag is still contributing to ignition - When I run at settings that should lead to   advanced spark on the surefly, the mag check still produces EGT rise on both sides.

[Ragsf15e]

Just now, DXB said:

I think the old fixed timed mag is still contributing to ignition - When I run at settings that should lead to   advanced spark on the surefly, the mag check still produces EGT rise on both sides.

Or the shop left it in fixed timing... can you see the dip switch settings?

[DXB]

Just now, Ragsf15e said:

Or the shop left it in fixed timing... can you see the dip switch settings?

No way to see dip switch settings with it installed.  Shop was instructed to set correctly, and the MP input required for variable timing is definitely there.  Also the mag drop is now slightly less on the Surefly side. I’m curious what others see.

[takair]

18 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Or the shop left it in fixed timing... can you see the dip switch settings?

They have a sequence of flashes of an LED light that can be decoded to determine the dip switch settings.  The install manual has the decoder.

[Brian E.]

34 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Oh, wait, are you saying your sos is on the interior side of the firewall?  Mine was in the engine compartment, on the engine side of the firewall.  Yeah, I’d leave that alone if it’s behind your panel.  Ugh.

In my C the SOS is on the interior side of the firewall.  can;t access it without opening up the avionics bay.

[Ragsf15e]

3 minutes ago, Brian E. said:

In my C the SOS is on the interior side of the firewall.  can;t access it without opening up the avionics bay.

I guess I got lucky with that one.  Mine was in the engine compartment, attached to the firewall, near the top on the pilots side.  Voltage regulator same place, copilot side.  Weird how they’re all different.  Mine has the 201 windshield so maybe it moved when that went in?

[Ragsf15e]

20 minutes ago, takair said:

They have a sequence of flashes of an LED light that can be decoded to determine the dip switch settings.  The install manual has the decoder.

Yeah, I should’ve said it like that.  My ia checked the led lights after the install as we followed the installation manual.

[takair]

10 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Yeah, I should’ve said it like that.  My ia checked the led lights after the install as we followed the installation manual.

As a side note, I did have one unit where a DIP switch appears to have been bad.  I set the DIPs and the code read back was not correct.  I really needed to do it a few times to convince myself of it.  That read back is really critical to ensure correct timing, as there is no other indication of the timing.  SureFly support was first class.

[Igor_U]

16 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Oh, wait, are you saying your sos is on the interior side of the firewall?  Mine was in the engine compartment, on the engine side of the firewall.  Yeah, I’d leave that alone if it’s behind your panel.  Ugh.

Yes, on the inside! 

I think there's possibility to access the nuts on the inside through the opening at the glare-shield  with right extension and socket. I can certainly see the wires.  How do you unhook the wires, just pull? Mine looks like wires are coming from the unit but could be wrong as it's behind some vacuum lines. Sometimes I wonder what engineers were thinking when designing our planes... 

[jamesm]

Surefly has a pretty good setup procedure.  I just installed one on my 67'c  a couple of weeks ago  though I haven't much of chance to check it out.

The first problem we experienced  was as we were turning mag gear  to get the LED to out and  the LED was rapidly flashing and didn't seem to matter how slow we turned the gear.

So when we  removed the  cap over the manifold pressure port that seem to fixed that problem.

Second problem was the Magneto gear installation (as others of mentioned) I had a brand new gear but couldn't timed to the  engine as prescribed in the instructions. so we pulled the Surefly  and re-installed the magneto gear. If I recall correctly initially the part marking  of the mag gear was 6 o'clock position then we moved it  to the 8 O'clock position. we had a 50 % percent chance of getting correctly the first time. 

Just  a hindsight comments and observations ..

if you watch the Grumman installation  video  from the  web page, they kind gloss over this point in the video  IMHO. It has two different power terminals/posts  and by terminal I mean the gold color  bolt head  is  the terminal posts one is for  "TIMING" and  the other  is for   'Power".   These terminal post have  a 6-32  thread in the center   shown in "Timing" position in  the picture below. So for timing procedure   You use  the timing  terminal once  for  initial setup then your done.  This is the  light flashing sequence step to indicate the  timing of the dip switch settings (also other have previously mentioned).  The  other  "POWER" terminal  post  is  the power from the  battery and has the  inline 10 amp slo-blow  fuse. the Silver terminal on the side is for the P-Lead.

 

and of course  the is fun  once you have installed  the SIM on the engine. trying to installed the 6-32 screw terminal into  the power terminal post can be a bit of challenge .

As others mentioned, there really  wasn't one part number for  the slick Ignition Harness. It is more of   if have a model slick  mag installed on a  M20C  here is a lists  of part numbers  that are suitable substitution  for slick magnetos harnesses and there were several.  I believe it was Jason from SureFly suggest that I talk to New Horizons  who uses Aircraft Ignition services (903 378 7205)  as their sales  distributor.

For the left side slick Ignition harness, I elected to use the New Horizons "Maggie Ignition system"  slick cable harness  (L2-5AS-II) . This is supposed  to be Left side slick  ignition harness replacement .The routing made it a  little short  when  compared the harness routing to the Bendix Left side Harness.   Since the PMA  part I used as is.    I paid  about ~ $264  from Aircraft Ignition services from Honey Grove, TX.

Also elect to use ElectroAir's  EA15000 start panel. I am overly paranoid of the starter button exposed with no guard while on the ground. I pulled the Ignition  Circuit  breaker  when not in use in the hangar. While in flight I am overly paranoid of bumping the rocker P-lead switches  could lead to a exciting and exhilarating  experience. But hey  :~) I got rid of reoccurring Bendix switch AD.. Probably  was not worth it. Not much of the Mooney original wiring remains.  

It runs like  a singer sewing  machine  very smooth.

So far no complaints though I haven't received the  bill  from my IA for the   annual .  I had the Right Bendix Magneto  overhauled. since it was approaching the 500 hr inspection. there was intermittent occasional miss.

 

 

James "67C

 

 

 

 

 

[carusoam]

Great pirep James, very detailed!

Best regards,

-a-

[ziggy122]

Thanks for all the insights so far.  So my mags are coming due, and I'm considering the surefly. Couple of noob questions and comments, please correct me where i went wrong and if I missed anything: 

So the benefits of the surefly are:

    -less mx/ ~4x longer life

    -better starting 

    -theoretical ability to lean further

    -can remove the SOS

...according to spruce, when you replace just one magneto it eliminates the mx and overhaul costs for both mags? How is that possible? 

 ...So assuming my spark plugs and spark plug wires are good, about $1700 in parts (for the surefly and slick harness) + about 11 hrs of labor?

 

[Ragsf15e]

26 minutes ago, ziggy122 said:

Thanks for all the insights so far.  So my mags are coming due, and I'm considering the surefly. Couple of noob questions and comments, please correct me where i went wrong and if I missed anything: 

So the benefits of the surefly are:

    -less mx/ ~4x longer life

    -better starting 

    -theoretical ability to lean further

    -can remove the SOS

...according to spruce, when you replace just one magneto it eliminates the mx and overhaul costs for both mags? How is that possible? 

 ...So assuming my spark plugs and spark plug wires are good, about $1700 in parts (for the surefly and slick harness) + about 11 hrs of labor?

 

11 hours seems pretty high.  It’s a simple mag swap.  Hardest part is running the power wire back to the battery if it’s in the tail like mine.  The interior is not fun to take out/put back.

Mine works well.  Breaking in a new cylinder though so not flying it high or lean to see any of those benefits yet.

[carusoam]

Since the two mags are independent, and you are keeping the original mag...

It may be good to re-read where you found the lower maintenance on both mags part...

Got a link?

 

Most issues that have been found up to this point were early install related... some parts intended to be re-used were not able to be re-used...

Small technical details That shouldn’t be a problem going forwards...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

  -a-

[ziggy122]

11 hours ago, carusoam said:

Since the two mags are independent, and you are keeping the original mag...

It may be good to re-read where you found the lower maintenance on both mags part...

Got a link?

 

Most issues that have been found up to this point were early install related... some parts intended to be re-used were not able to be re-used...

Small technical details That shouldn’t be a problem going forwards...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

  -a-

that's what I was thinking.  Seems impossible to me that it would reduce the costs on the other mag. 

 

...3rd paragraph from the top under "overview"

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/surefly_08-17074.php

 

I guess it doesn't explicitly say both mags, maybe I read into it too deep.  

 

"Replacing just one magneto eliminates magneto maintenance and cuts associated costs in half! Zero maintenance. Zero rebuilds. Zero overhauls. "

 

....i guess you could say that it eliminates magneto mx on that one mag.  seems misleading to me.

Edited January 26, 2020 by ziggy122

[carusoam]

Don’t fault the marketing people...  they know not what they do... or how long their words last...

This has been the message of the day... 

 

The Garmin Marketing guys have us looking into tossing out our mag compasses recently... they may actually be right... but it is going to take a few pages of fine print from a technical legal team to detail it for us...

Best regards,

-a-

[DXB]

On 1/2/2020 at 9:02 PM, DXB said:

I think the old fixed timed mag is still contributing to ignition - When I run at settings that should lead to   advanced spark on the surefly, the mag check still produces EGT rise on both sides.

 

On 1/2/2020 at 9:04 PM, Ragsf15e said:

Or the shop left it in fixed timing... can you see the dip switch settings?

 

On 1/2/2020 at 9:24 PM, takair said:

They have a sequence of flashes of an LED light that can be decoded to determine the dip switch settings.  The install manual has the decoder.

Finally put this issue to rest - my DIP switches are set correctly for advanced timing for my engine. The green indicator light flash pattern can just be seen with a mirror while reaching through pilot window to turn ignition to left.  

[pirate]

So it’s been a while since many of you switched to SureFly. 

I’m in the process of installing Surefly on my 70C . 

I’ve heard a few rumors the C models CHT’s may run hotter when selecting the variable timing mode.

Have any other C drivers noticed hotter CHT’s ? 

Is it worth setting a carbed O-360 to variable timing or would you stay fixed like the right mag ?  

Thanks 

Ed

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, pirate said:

So it’s been a while since many of you switched to SureFly. 

I’m in the process of installing Surefly on my 70C . 

I’ve heard a few rumors the C models CHT’s may run hotter when selecting the variable timing mode.

Have any other C drivers noticed hotter CHT’s ? 

Is it worth setting a carbed O-360 to variable timing or would you stay fixed like the right mag ?  

Thanks 

Ed

This might be a bit of pain on the front end, but Id suggest trying it first with the advance enabled.  If you don’t like it, you can turn it off (yes, with some work). If you start in fixed mode, you won’t know. I really liked it on my F in advance, but of course I was injected and ran LOP a lot.  Another factor is your normal cruise altitudes?  If you’re an east coaster who thinks you’ll get a nosebleed above 5,000’, then advance isn’t going to be different than fixed timing.  However, if you’re cruising at 8-10k a lot then it’s more noticeable.

[pirate]

Incase this helps another M20C in the future. 
 

I recently installed the Surefly with the variable timing option on my carbureted  0360. 

During the test flight my CHT’s were noticeably higher than normal. 

Next I pulled everything and reset to fixed timing CHT’s returned to normal or a tad better. 
 

Very quick starts both cold and hot and much smoother running engine. 

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, pirate said:

Incase this helps another M20C in the future. 
 

I recently installed the Surefly with the variable timing option on my carbureted  0360. 

During the test flight my CHT’s were noticeably higher than normal. 

Next I pulled everything and reset to fixed timing CHT’s returned to normal or a tad better. 
 

Very quick starts both cold and hot and much smoother running engine. 

Curious, what altitude did you notice the warmer CHTs?  They used to publish an advance map showing fixed timing until about 5000’, but it’s not published anymore.

[pirate]

15 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Curious, what altitude did you notice the warmer CHTs?  They used to publish an advance map showing fixed timing until about 5000’, but it’s not published anymore.

Down low 2-5 was higher. 6-8 was ok. 
I set it to fixed so it’s more well rounded especially in summertime.