Factory Closed Down?

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Hyett6420 said:

...You cant compare apples with pears.  

Is that what they say in England?  Here in the colonies we say apples and oranges to contrast disparate fruit.

[JT]

Do the owners of Mooney Aircraft read MS? There is a wealth of experience and knowledge here that I'm sure everyone would be willing to share to save our beloved. Is there really a backlog of aircraft that they can't get out the door? Surprising the owners wouldn't be able to ramp that up- speculating though. Maybe it's harder than it seems. 

[TGreen]

29 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

If Mooney is supposedly doing some contract work for others or is supposedly sold out until March then shutting the factory and furloughing employees only hurts its ability to meet contractual commitments.  This doesn't seem like the rational action of a going concern.

If sold out until March means that Mooney's independently-owned dealers have ordered 4 planes, I imagine Mooney can meet that commitment even if they shut down for a week or two. 

I wonder whether Beechcraft has changed its production methods. Only produced 3 Bonanzas in the first half of this year.

The realist in me suspects that Beechcraft and Mooney are having no problem keeping up with the demand for high-performance retractable siingles.

[Marauder]

10 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

and that's why you are in the colonies.  Sorry you asked for that one.     Ive told you before, dont have a bitch fight with a Queen, you will lose. 

 

 

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Is that what they say in England?  Here in the colonies we say apples and oranges to contrast disparate fruit.

If it wasn't for the British we wouldn't have a lot of our quotes:

"No taxation without representation."

“Surrender? I have not yet begun to fight!”

"We have met the enemy and they are ours." 

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories."

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it." 

And of course, we can't forget the most important one:

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."

Andrew -- you were asking for that one!  Hope this doesn't mean my supply of British tea will be interrupted. 

[INA201]

Mooney is adding production to their factory but needs to keep all of this private. Premier advertised that they are out until March of 2020. They know what’s going on. We have collectively been pessimistic.  Stay tuned more to come!......

Maybe

[vorlon1]

3 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

 I can produce plans for a LAA on the back of a fag packet and people will build them at their own risk.

Fag packet?

[alextstone]

4 minutes ago, vorlon1 said:

Fag packet?

Cigarette box

[Marauder]

3 minutes ago, alextstone said:

Cigarette box

Kind of reminds me of an incident that happened on move in day for my freshman year at college. I met my new roommate and his parents. It was a hot August day even for western NY standards. I asked my roommate with his parents standing there if he knew where the pop machine was. Both he and his parents had this unbelievable shocked look on their faces and didn't say a word. Later that evening my roommate from Long Guyland asked me if they really had pot machines in western NY. That was when I got indoctrinated to the word "soda".

[vorlon1]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

Kind of reminds me of an incident that happened on move in day for my freshman year at college. I met my new roommate and his parents. It was a hot August day even for western NY standards. I asked my roommate with his parents standing there if he knew where the pop machine was. Both he and his parents had this unbelievable shocked look on their faces and didn't say a word. Later that evening my roommate from Long Guyland asked me if they really had pot machines in western NY. That was when I got indoctrinated to the word "soda".

And in the south, it's all 'coke'

[shorrick mk2]

49 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

I thought they ran Frances buses?

They had 35 buses serving a few destinations in France for 2-3 years. Hardly anything like "ran France's buses".

The whole european franchise was sold to Flixbus.

[aviatoreb]

52 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

As for your supply of Tea, umm Paul Revere chucked it in the harbour, damn traitor.

Andrew

One man's trader is another man's patriot.  

Besides - I prefer coffee.

Edited November 11, 2019 by aviatoreb

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, vorlon1 said:

And in the south, it's all 'coke'

...and don't they say "pop" in the upper midwest, like Minnesota and the Dakotas?  I'll have a sodeeeee pop please.

[DXB]

56 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

For starters if it wasn't for the British, you wouldn't have a bloody country, lets be honest!

And more to the point...no Mooney Aircraft Co. to be bought by the Chinese.  And then there would be no worries about it closing down so we cant find parts for our vintage planes.  Just trying to get this thread back on track 

[aviatoreb]

34 minutes ago, DXB said:

And more to the point...no Mooney Aircraft Co. to be bought by the Chinese.  And then there would be no worries about it closing down so we cant find parts for our vintage planes.  Just trying to get this thread back on track 

...rightly so - back to point.

Anyway to the point of the discussion - I raised the question - if our aircraft become orphans, does that give us the right to have some parts to be independently manufactured as needed?

Example - ragracer's $1991 for the parts pictures of a carb air box for his M20C is something I could imagine being indepentley produced for maybe $100? $200? by a local craftsmen, or maybe some national level people who become good at making such parts.

There is a fellow I know locally who owns and runs a hobby shop - trains, etc. And he is good at crafting anything out of raw materials in a little machine shop he keeps - he is busy all the time keeping a local sausage making plant up and running - he is making from scratch small parts to keep the plant's many machines going.  Those parts I have seen are more complicated that just about anything on a mooney (including the engine) (not including the avionics).

Alex you found the FAA circular - https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac_23-27.pdf but its legaleeeze to me.   Does that mean we would be able to do such?

Edited November 11, 2019 by aviatoreb

[alextstone]

2 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

...rightly so - back to point.

Anyway to the point of the discussion - I raised the question - if our aircraft become orphans, does that give us the right to have some parts to be independently manufactured as needed?

I think the answer is "yes - conditional on your area FSDO doing a field approval"... @philiplane am I correct?

[aviatoreb]

2 minutes ago, alextstone said:

I think the answer is "yes - conditional on your area FSDO doing a field approval"... @philiplane am I correct?

Check out - I wrote a tad more - you were so quick to reply ....

[afward]

One of the defunct manufacturers' drawings ended up being bought by the type club.  I don't remember which one offhand...  Grummon?  Bellanca?  Anyway, the type club can legally contract with an already PMA'ed subcontractor to produce the parts, which sidesteps a whole lot of the paperwork we'd otherwise have to do...

Not sure how owner produced would work in that situation...  That's certainly the right regulation, though.

[aviatoreb]

Just now, Hyett6420 said:

Certainly in the UK, yes they become a Permit to Fly aircraft and you can manufacture parts as required.  A bit like the old WW2 vintage stuff.

Then I'm buying a P51.  Or a nice spitfire.

But seriously - at $1951 for that silly little carb box that looks like something a 16 year old made in shop class..... potentially it would be much cheaper to produce your own (professionally) custom.

Ideally rather than copying parts - which is quite doable for many parts - if ALL of the original drawings were available.  The drawings may be the most valuable thing the factory owns to try and make public if they do ever go under for good. (For bad).

[Nick Pilotte]

I work for a non-aviation vehicle manufacturer so have a little bit of understanding of how Mooney has been operated the last few years. My company has 3 basic divisions and one is a niche market similar to Beechcraft’s piston division.  When you have sky high development, testing, and certification expenses, you have a low likelihood of making a profit on low volume product.  If they want to turn things around, I think developing the M10 would help but they could also look at single engine turboprop trainers to compete with the T-6 Texan II contract.  Over the past 19 years, production of that craft has been 850+ at a unit cost of over $4mil.  Perhaps this type of government contract could keep the private GA line afloat.  
 

Just random thoughts from a non-executive low level worker bee. 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, afward said:

One of the defunct manufacturers' drawings ended up being bought by the type club.  I don't remember which one offhand...  Grummon?  Bellanca?  Anyway, the type club can legally contract with an already PMA'ed subcontractor to produce the parts, which sidesteps a whole lot of the paperwork we'd otherwise have to do...

Not sure how owner produced would work in that situation...  That's certainly the right regulation, though.

I believe that the Globe Swift Type certificate and production rights is held by the Swift Museum Foundation as an example.

Clarence

[Hank]

3 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

I wonder who these "others" are at the factory today.  If Mooney is supposedly doing some contract work for others or is supposedly sold out until March then shutting the factory and furloughing employees only hurts its ability to meet contractual commitments.  This doesn't seem like the rational action of a going concern.

Must be someone afraid of being recognized. Does Tesla want to build electric planes? Maybe Richard Branson wants to redo the tail of his space planes? Could be anything . . . . or nothing. Time will tell, but most likely not next week.

 

[afward]

@M20Doc that's the type of thing I was thinking of, though I didn't know the Swift Museum Foundation did so.  I'm pretty sure there are a couple others that have done the same thing...

[Derek]

Maybe the "others" are one of the bigger fish, some Textron-like conglomerate. Seems like an a good optimistic scenario.

[aviatoreb]

59 minutes ago, Nick Pilotte said:

I work for a non-aviation vehicle manufacturer so have a little bit of understanding of how Mooney has been operated the last few years. My company has 3 basic divisions and one is a niche market similar to Beechcraft’s piston division.  When you have sky high development, testing, and certification expenses, you have a low likelihood of making a profit on low volume product.  If they want to turn things around, I think developing the M10 would help but they could also look at single engine turboprop trainers to compete with the T-6 Texan II contract.  Over the past 19 years, production of that craft has been 850+ at a unit cost of over $4mil.  Perhaps this type of government contract could keep the private GA line afloat.  
 

Just random thoughts from a non-executive low level worker bee. 

Right - good thought.

And another example of a GA aircraft maker fitting into the contracts business - 

Diamond adjusted their Diamond DA42 twin diesel aircraft to become a UAV drone that can be flown with or without a human pilot on board.  With its extreme efficiency of diesel engines, and without the weight of humans on board I believe it has a very impressive endurance for loitering airborne for a long time with whatever instrumentation for remote sensing.  It is a much lower cost solution when competing against say a predator drone, and sufficient in many settings.  Very clever of Diamond.  And they sell not huge numbers in military contractor sales but big numbers as far as a small GA aircraft maker is concerned.  Many countries are customers.

https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=2005

Dominator II - Development of 2009; 28 hour endurance with 899lb payload capability; 190 knot speeds; 30,000 foot operating altitude.

Edited November 11, 2019 by aviatoreb

[RogueOne]

2 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

For starters if it wasn't for the British, you wouldn't have a bloody country, lets be honest!

But I must admit I had never ever read the whole text before,  fascinating.  The bit Ive left above is very very topical at the moment re the big B word as indeed that is exactly what the government is doing ie changing for light or transient causes.  Thank you for the education. 

However we have moved on form having a fuedal system of government many centuries ago and I could argue that our system of government is more to the people than yours which tends to be closer to the corporation and the rich man. but we are not allowed politics on here so I wont,   Over a pint perhaps one day.

As for your supply of Tea, umm Paul Revere chucked it in the harbour, damn traitor.

Andrew

Come on.  You know what you are doing is wrong.  Stop it.  Poking the bear may be a hobby, but just say no.  References to sexuality are also just not needed or wanted.  While it may feel good just cease and desist.  

I freely acknowledge that your country of origin has a military that is competent.  I also acknowledge that Europe has a sizable landmass made up of sovereign countries.

Coffee black with freshly ground beans.  Differences are what make us all unique and special.  I will drink to that.  I would happily shake your hand and buy you a pint to talk about who did what when to whom and why...but not here.