I'm looking at a 1998 M20R vs M20R OVATION3

[CoinDealer]

Can anyone help me with a couple questions. I hear the panel in a later model is 2" lower. I'm tall and have no trouble seeing over any. also the older models are far less expensive. I saw online 1998 MOONEY M20R OVATION N2126S with G500 and 530/430W.  Asking $225K.      2006 MOONEY M20R OVATION3.  N969RP with G1000 but damage history for $275K  .  My question is what would someone prefer. I live in NYC and will be using the plane to fly to and from Florida. I prefer a plane that is FIKI if possible. So many to choose from I'm at a loss and need help. I've been flying Pipers for the last 25 years and want to step up to some real speed and more range.

Thanks,

Dan

 

[ArtVandelay]

I would avoid the G1000 myself, there is just so many other options available for panel upgrades these days. Did you ask if it’s ADSB ready?


Tom

[Davidv]

People have different views of owning and maintaining a turbo, but I would go Bravo/acclaim if that’s your mission.  I’ve flown mine non-stop from FXE to NYC (if you can find a solution for the no bathroom break) and it’s nice to have the flexibility to fly much higher when the winds are in your favor.  I would even do FXE to Boston in the flight levels when the winds are right and it will be just shorter door to door than commercial. (Of course coming back to Florida a different story!)

[kmyfm20s]

Unless they have done the WAAS upgrade on the G1000 I would pass. Even with WAAS it seems like the G1000 models will continue to have difficulties with avionics upgrades and compatibilities that will be expensive and frustrating. I have the high panel and it only covers the visibility of the top cowl while taxing so you really wouldn’t have better viability anyway. The Ovations have a very nose high attitude on the ground.

[triple8s]

Damage history is all about 2 things.

1. Was it repaired properly with proper paperwork and quality parts. 

2. How long are you going to keep it before you decide to sell it.

Of course number one needs little explanation but number two is, a plane with NDH is always going to be easier to sell. With time, actual flying time, trust in the repairs is built and if all the proper documentation of all repairs is in order and the repairs are proper then with a good track record of the repairs holding up and not being continual trouble over the years damage history becomes less of an issue with most people, but NDH aircraft are always easier to sell and bring top dollar. So if you are a buyer and the repairs are good and documented then it is not much more than a negotiating chip for you the buyer and it will be the same to the buyer whom you sell to.

Another thought is the 97 O is going to have 23 yrs old instruments in it and after 20 yrs they start showing their age. I have a 96 O and I am on the verge of having to do something with my gyros, so this is also a consideration lots of money ey can be spent here. Oh also the Oxygen tank has a life limit I think its 15 yrs ought check that. There's a 2000$ bill to replace and have valve rebuilt/replaced which ought be done too, and Ovation has a sweet spot (cruise alt.) that is such that you will need it. Mine loves mid teens and LOP operation, it is truly a sweet travelling machine. Very economical. Your trip from NY to FL will be a trip such that FIKI would be very handy so look at your useful load. You won't need as much fuel in an ovation as in other brands, read up on this. Tks/fiki will eat into that useful load some and also they say tks will shave off a few kts of cruise speed. I dont have tks so I only know what I've heard. Good luck and if you decide on an O please share pics and experiences with us.

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20R Evaluation/M20R.htm

Edited September 10, 2019 by triple8s

[CoinDealer]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I would avoid the G1000 myself, there is just so many other options available for panel upgrades these days. Did you ask if it’s ADSB ready?


Tom

I have a call in to Foot hills this morning. Tx

[CoinDealer]

1 hour ago, Davidv said:

People have different views of owning and maintaining a turbo, but I would go Bravo/acclaim if that’s your mission.  I’ve flown mine non-stop from FXE to NYC (if you can find a solution for the no bathroom break) and it’s nice to have the flexibility to fly much higher when the winds are in your favor.  I would even do FXE to Boston in the flight levels when the winds are right and it will be just shorter door to door than commercial. (Of course coming back to Florida a different story!)

In Florida, I would be flying between 7FL6 and FRG. Total distance is about 800 nm. My gut can handle upwards of 4.5 hrs.  I did a BST to FRG in an Archer 2 with a 55 knot head wind as part of a PALS flight a while back with no trouble. As for the turbo, I used to work for Butler Aviation at FRG back in the late 60s. I was a graduate of the Academy of Aeronautics now Vaughn College. I learned back then how to preserve an engine. The turbo and FIKI gives one options that non turbo does not. I was for  a while thinking about a Matrix until Avemco said they don't insure them. 

[CoinDealer]

2 hours ago, kmyfm20s said:

Unless they have done the WAAS upgrade on the G1000 I would pass. Even with WAAS it seems like the G1000 models will continue to have difficulties with avionics upgrades and compatibilities that will be expensive and frustrating. I have the high panel and it only covers the visibility of the top cowl while taxing so you really wouldn’t have better viability anyway. The Ovations have a very nose high attitude on the ground.

Thx. I'm at the beginning process. All information is much appreciated. 

[CoinDealer]

2 hours ago, triple8s said:

Damage history is all about 2 things.

1. Was it repaired properly with proper paperwork and quality parts. 

2. How long are you going to keep it before you decide to sell it.

Of course number one needs little explanation but number two is, a plane with NDH is always going to be easier to sell. With time, actual flying time, trust in the repairs is built and if all the proper documentation of all repairs is in order and the repairs are proper then with a good track record of the repairs holding up and not being continual trouble over the years damage history becomes less of an issue with most people, but NDH aircraft are always easier to sell and bring top dollar. So if you are a buyer and the repairs are good and documented then it is not much more than a negotiating chip for you the buyer and it will be the same to the buyer whom you sell to.

Another thought is the 97 O is going to have 23 yrs old instruments in it and after 20 yrs they start showing their age. I have a 96 O and I am on the verge of having to do something with my gyros, so this is also a consideration lots of money ey can be spent here. Oh also the Oxygen tank has a life limit I think its 15 yrs ought check that. There's a 2000$ bill to replace and have valve rebuilt/replaced which ought be done too, and Ovation has a sweet spot (cruise alt.) that is such that you will need it. Mine loves mid teens and LOP operation, it is truly a sweet travelling machine. Very economical. Your trip from NY to FL will be a trip such that FIKI would be very handy so look at your useful load. You won't need as much fuel in an ovation as in other brands, read up on this. Tks/fiki will eat into that useful load some and also they say tks will shave off a few kts of cruise speed. I dont have tks so I only know what I've heard. Good luck and if you decide on an O please share pics and experiences with us.

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20R Evaluation/M20R.htm

75-80% of the time I fly alone hence I really don't worry much about the load. When I am flying with a full load of friends, it's never more than 45 minutes for the hamburger run. As for NDH, I only look for them where possible. The reason I want FIKI is I've spent 40+ years of flying always thinking what if. I always carry portables, spare radios, flares, several types of flash lights and recently even an Epirb. I don't want to become an NTSB report. I'm turning 70 in March. Better safe than sorry.

[hypertech]

I have a 2000 ovation. Not sure if I have the high panel or not but it’s no problem for me (6’ tall with seats all the way down). 
 

Mine is FIKI and that’s a great thing in the NE in the winter. I’ve only flown through an icing condition once on purpose to punch through a layer on approach but if I couldn’t do that I’d have to scrub all winter. It’s also comforting to know that if I encounter icing and it takes atc a couple minutes to get me a new altitude it’s nbd. So, for me, which plane has FIKI would heavily weight the scales. M

The pros of my 2000 model - I can put whatever avionics I want in it. I’m not paying maintenance on a turbo I couldn’t really use anyway. We fly with a dog and Most of the time transitioning NYC, atc requires me to be at 6000 anyway. I have O2 on board. I’ve used it once to make sure it works. Otherwise I’m happy cruising 8-11k. 
 

The cons - I have replaced almost everything. I had an unexpected overhaul. I had a planned avionics upgrade. I’m on a list for the gfc500. I’ve resealed the tanks. I’ve put in new seats. Everything seems to be ready to go around 20 years which is unfortunately where I bought mine. That’s ok though - I’m not planning on selling it. 

[buddy]

If you want PM me I have a 2005 Ovation with the G1000 and A/C and live in the Creek.

[FlyingScot]

2 hours ago, hypertech said:

I have a 2000 ovation. Not sure if I have the high panel or not but it’s no problem for me (6’ tall with seats all the way down). 

Mine is FIKI and that’s a great thing in the NE in the winter. I’ve only flown through an icing condition once on purpose to punch through a layer on approach but if I couldn’t do that I’d have to scrub all winter. It’s also comforting to know that if I encounter icing and it takes atc a couple minutes to get me a new altitude it’s nbd. So, for me, which plane has FIKI would heavily weight the scales. 

The pros of my 2000 model - I can put whatever avionics I want in it. I’m not paying maintenance on a turbo I couldn’t really use anyway. We fly with a dog and Most of the time transitioning NYC, atc requires me to be at 6000 anyway. I have O2 on board. I’ve used it once to make sure it works. Otherwise I’m happy cruising 8-11k. 

I have a 2000 O2 with the 310HP STC and TKS - and I would echo these sentiments - I'm also 6' and find the vis just fine. I regularly fly MI -> NC -> FL and find this is a fantastic plane for this mission. We have the Great Lakes Ice machine up here, so the TKS is really nice to have. I have/am gradually upgraded/grading panel. 

Higher altitude would be nice sometimes, but I can get to the low flight levels if I need to (has O2) but east of the Rockies I don't really find much need to - and a NA engine is much less complexity to deal with. As has been said, the Ovation loves 9-15K, so having O2 is really important and at those altitudes a cannula works for most every situation.

Bottom line - the Ovation is simply a fantastic machine. A great, super stable IFR platform.  Fast, efficient, and a true joy to fly.

- Bob

 

 

[midlifeflyer]

5 hours ago, triple8s said:

Damage history is all about 2 things.

1. Was it repaired properly with proper paperwork and quality parts. 

2. How long are you going to keep it before you decide to sell it.

Of course number one needs little explanation but number two is, a plane with NDH is always going to be easier to sell. With time, actual flying time, trust in the repairs is built and if all the proper documentation of all repairs is in order and the repairs are proper then with a good track record of the repairs holding up and not being continual trouble over the years damage history becomes less of an issue with most people, but NDH aircraft are always easier to sell and bring top dollar. So if you are a buyer and the repairs are good and documented then it is not much more than a negotiating chip for you the buyer and it will be the same to the buyer whom you sell to.

Another thought is the 97 O is going to have 23 yrs old instruments in it and after 20 yrs they start showing their age. I have a 96 O and I am on the verge of having to do something with my gyros, so this is also a consideration lots of money ey can be spent here. Oh also the Oxygen tank has a life limit I think its 15 yrs ought check that. There's a 2000$ bill to replace and have valve rebuilt/replaced which ought be done too, and Ovation has a sweet spot (cruise alt.) that is such that you will need it. Mine loves mid teens and LOP operation, it is truly a sweet travelling machine. Very economical. Your trip from NY to FL will be a trip such that FIKI would be very handy so look at your useful load. You won't need as much fuel in an ovation as in other brands, read up on this. Tks/fiki will eat into that useful load some and also they say tks will shave off a few kts of cruise speed. I dont have tks so I only know what I've heard. Good luck and if you decide on an O please share pics and experiences with us.

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20R Evaluation/M20R.htm

My favorite part of the discussion in that link:

Pilot must develop a different sight picture when landing these new Mooneys.  Where 5-degrees worked before, 8-degrees is necessary now.  This just takes practice and the help of a competent instructor familiar with long-body Mooneys.

It's absolutely true. The properly landed Ovation lands quite nose high.  But I just tell people to pretend they are in a  Cessna 172 or 182.  It's almost identical.

[MIm20c]

56 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

t's absolutely true. The properly landed Ovation lands quite nose high.  But I just tell people to pretend they are in a  Cessna 172 or 182.  It's almost identical.

Unless you are in the copilot seat with the seat slid back. In that case it’s like 3 point landing a 185...

[MIm20c]

4 hours ago, hypertech said:

I have a 2000 ovation. Not sure if I have the high panel or not but it’s no problem for me (6’ tall with seats all the way down). 

The high panel is flat across the top. The late 2003/2004 DX models and GX have the lower panel that steps down 3? inches on both sides of the avionics stack. 

[CoinDealer]

7 hours ago, hypertech said:

I have a 2000 ovation. Not sure if I have the high panel or not but it’s no problem for me (6’ tall with seats all the way down). 
 

Mine is FIKI and that’s a great thing in the NE in the winter. I’ve only flown through an icing condition once on purpose to punch through a layer on approach but if I couldn’t do that I’d have to scrub all winter. It’s also comforting to know that if I encounter icing and it takes atc a couple minutes to get me a new altitude it’s nbd. So, for me, which plane has FIKI would heavily weight the scales. M

The pros of my 2000 model - I can put whatever avionics I want in it. I’m not paying maintenance on a turbo I couldn’t really use anyway. We fly with a dog and Most of the time transitioning NYC, atc requires me to be at 6000 anyway. I have O2 on board. I’ve used it once to make sure it works. Otherwise I’m happy cruising 8-11k. 
 

The cons - I have replaced almost everything. I had an unexpected overhaul. I had a planned avionics upgrade. I’m on a list for the gfc500. I’ve resealed the tanks. I’ve put in new seats. Everything seems to be ready to go around 20 years which is unfortunately where I bought mine. That’s ok though - I’m not planning on selling it. 

Everyone's information is much appreciated. Thanks. I fly the East coast. I generally like to be around FL100-110. Since the plane I buy will be my first I'm trying to understand what works best safety wise for me and what I plan on doing. Nothing will be done this year but the more I learn the better I am. Thanks,

Dan

[carusoam]

The Long Body is a great plane...

1) Flying the east coast? No great need for the turbo...

2) hanging out in the NE?... no great need for AC...

3) Only flying weekends?... Fiki requires some upkeep...

4) Like short runways..? The 310hp / TopProp is all about T/O and climb...

5) Your second Mooney may evolve into selection of a TN’d, Fiki, 310hp monster...

Pick one that already has WAAS and 2020 ADSB  nav skills to go along with the usual VOR/ILS...

Best regards,

-a-

[larryb]

Turbo is really nice. Gets above a lot of weather and bumpy air.

[CoinDealer]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

The Long Body is a great plane...

1) Flying the east coast? No great need for the turbo...

2) hanging out in the NE?... no great need for AC...

3) Only flying weekends?... Fiki requires some upkeep...

4) Like short runways..? The 310hp / TopProp is all about T/O and climb...

5) Your second Mooney may evolve into selection of a TN’d, Fiki, 310hp monster...

Pick one that already has WAAS and 2020 ADSB  nav skills to go along with the usual VOR/ILS...

Best regards,

-a-

Good to know but the shortest RW I use is BID or 3N6 where my uncle lives. As for my second Mooney?  I'll be moving up from an Archer so anything is better. Don't need or want monster engine. Being an ex A&P monster engines come with their own problems, fuel consumption, oil burn and more. I've been climbing at 500 fpm so a plane that doubles that is more than sufficient.  

[carusoam]

1200’ is typical T/O for the 280hp O1...

800’ with 310hp O3 powered O1...

If you visit a 2k’ strip, being off the ground at the halfway point skips a lot of calculations...

These were numbers I actually measured using a WAAS source attached to my iPad... when I had the engine OH’d... and prop swapped out...

Getting an engine and prop can be expensive... so... if you can... get one already updated, with a lot of meat left on the bone.... 

Best regards,

-a-

[ilovecornfields]

I also have a FIKI 2000 Ovation 2 with the 310 HP STC and absolutely love it. Big decision you have to make is turbo or NA. If you want/need a turbo look at the Bravos and 252/Encores. If you go NA the Ovation is hard to beat.

[Mufflerbearing]

I recently purchased an M20S Screaming Eagle.  Which basically is an O2 with a little better UL.  Having Fiki was important to me and it came with a lot of good electronics on board.  It is NA and I just love this plane.  This was a long agonizing search, but when we found our first plane, we didn't hesitate to purchase it and I have never looked back.  Mine came with a little past history, but when looked into, it was fixed properly and the plane flies perfectly and the owner never hid anything and was super helpful before and after the purchase. 

One thing I learned here on MS is getting to know the seller.  This is a big help in finding the right plane.

[Niko182]

My family ended up in the same situation, We thought a Legacy Ovation/Eagle was the way to go. Mooney and garmin don't seem to be working too hard on figuring out the NXI upgrade for the legacy G1000 models, and I personally wouldn't want that. The waas upgrade on the G1000 airplanes seem to be around 35 to 40k. a WAAS upgrade for a 2000 ovation right now can be had for $4295 bucks plus another 3K to install. We bought a mid time 1999 eagle for 134K a little over a year ago. that leaves 141k for you to figure out what you want to upgrade. throw 75k for a new panel, 25k for an amazing paint job. 15K for an interior, and 20k for the 310HP STC with an acclaim prop. maybe thorw in some nice aveo wingtips for another 3, surefly for another 3k, and after all of that, you have finally reached the price of that ovation 3, and in the end you'll have a plane that has a higher useful load, and cruises faster because of the acclaim prop, and will truly be a masterpiece.

Also if you're flying at 10 to 11k, the ovation is the way to go. that is really where it loves to be. Not to dis the bravo in anyway, but you can have 180 knots on 13 gallons in an ovation, or 180 knots on 19 gallons in a bravo.

[CoinDealer]

Day 2 on the Mooney  chat board. The amount you and the members have been sending me is a wealth of information I would not have been able to acquire through Google. I thank everyone for their insight and information. By the time I make my choice which will be next year, I'll really know what the heck I'm doing :). 180 knots would be light speed for someone flying PA28181s for the last 1/4 century.  I spoke to a local pilot this morning who has the O with FIKI. We are going to get together and do some flying in the next couple weeks. I have about 75 hrs in Cirrus 20 and used to fly it at FL100 at 138 knots on 7.2-7.3 gallons an hour. I'll sacrifice 15 knots for 5 gallons an hour any day of the week. Being an ex A&P helps.

Dan

[CoinDealer]

7 hours ago, Niko182 said:

My family ended up in the same situation, We thought a Legacy Ovation/Eagle was the way to go. Mooney and garmin don't seem to be working too hard on figuring out the NXI upgrade for the legacy G1000 models, and I personally wouldn't want that. The waas upgrade on the G1000 airplanes seem to be around 35 to 40k. a WAAS upgrade for a 2000 ovation right now can be had for $4295 bucks plus another 3K to install. We bought a mid time 1999 eagle for 134K a little over a year ago. that leaves 141k for you to figure out what you want to upgrade. throw 75k for a new panel, 25k for an amazing paint job. 15K for an interior, and 20k for the 310HP STC with an acclaim prop. maybe thorw in some nice aveo wingtips for another 3, surefly for another 3k, and after all of that, you have finally reached the price of that ovation 3, and in the end you'll have a plane that has a higher useful load, and cruises faster because of the acclaim prop, and will truly be a masterpiece.

Also if you're flying at 10 to 11k, the ovation is the way to go. that is really where it loves to be. Not to dis the bravo in anyway, but you can have 180 knots on 13 gallons in an ovation, or 180 knots on 19 gallons in a bravo.

After hitting send I just realized  you fly out of SNA. My ex wife lives in Brea. Last year in July A flew out of there a PA46 I went to see about purchasing. I live in NY. We flew over Catalina for an hour flight. The Matrix was a nice plane but over the last year I've found you can't carry much in the plane and I don't need 6 seats. The insurance is high and so is the maintenance. The Mooney's are really the only way to go. 

Dan