Mountain flying in a M20E

[Browncbr1]

I am Washington state right now between Pasco and Yakima.  I’m going to checkout the cub crafters factory here. Maybe a carbon cub. I had wanted to fly my family out here in our F, but after studying the MEAs around SLC and north, I decided to leave that mission for another day with different equipment.   I’m sure the F could have done it ok, but I didn’t want to deal with having the whole family on oxygen and being that heavy at that high DA.   If it had been just me +1, I probably would have done it.   I think you’ll have fun Bob.   Good luck!

Edited July 11, 2019 by Browncbr1

[midlifeflyer]

5 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Mark, I have almost zero hands on experience mountain flying at the altitudes of the West.  

That's why I am soliciting all the advice I can get. I plan to fly early and be on the ground by noon each day. I'll be watching the winds aloft and surface winds carefully. I plan to be on VFR flight plans with flight following most of the time instead of IFR as I would be in the East. etc.

 

You may or may not have flight following available. Remember that we're talking line of sight and sometimes radar installations which are blocked. There are even areas where there is loss of communications at the MEA. So, in addition to everything else, think in terms of filing VFR flight plans and updating them at certain points. If you are receiving flight Following, the Flight Plan updates are not completely necessary because procedures in case a VFR flight plan is not closed include checking with ATC. But otherwise, it's a good idea to pudate with flight serice. The idea is telling them where you are now so they don't have to look at earlier legs.

You are getting bits and pieces of information. The conservative mountain instructor in me says you want to arrange at least one mountain flight with a CFI before you head west of Denver. Density altitude effects such as decreased power and airfoil efficiency, longer landing rolls at higher airspeed, longer takeoffs in which the profile is much shallower and a "normal" sea level climb attitude can lead to a stall can be disconcerting to the uninitiated. Then there's the mountains which exaggerates all of that, have many one-way-in-one-way-out airports which often require short field lading technique (even if they are not short)  and the need to always, always, always have an out as you cross a pass.

At a minimum, though, I'd highly recommend picking up a copy of Sparky Imeson's Mountain Flying Bible. The link is to the website, but I suspect there will be used copies available places like Amazon.

Although it's not quite the same, you might even think in terms of a trip into our mountains on a warm day. Two good candidates would be Ashe County (GEV) which is 3177 msl and I think the highest public airport east of the Mississippi. Another is 1A5 (Macon County). 2034 msl is decent and its configuration similar to many airports in the west.

Of course, if you know someone there. Mountain Air is a great choice.

 

[Air pirate]

You will have a blast, just a few more tips. (re  iterating)

 

• Fly early-first light, cooler temps , light winds
• IFR can be dicey in light singles
• when in valleys, stay on the sunny side (thermal and winds rising)
• cross any high peaks at a 45 degree angle (leaves you an out to turn around if needed)
• higher is better over inhospitable terrain
• pack a bag with small first aid kit, water for two , a good knife, energy bars, parachord,, space blankets, waterproof matches or lighter, (I keep a bag if Fritos in survival bag, they're great fire starters  besides being tasty.
• Fly with good boots, (flip flops no good if you have to hike out from anywhere), have some warm clothes with (fleece pull over, rain gear) 85 up here today, last night 44.

 

Great flying, great scenery, the American West is a gift,  my apologies for any alarm, but just better to be informed and buttoned up.  Have fun , fly safe!

 

[midlifeflyer]

7 minutes ago, Air pirate said:

 

Great flying, great scenery, the American West is a gift,  my apologies for any alarm, but just better to be informed and buttoned up.  Have fun , fly safe!

 

As you know, a little paranoia when flying in the mountain west is a good thing.

[Ragsf15e]

As an CFI who’s been flying light airplanes in the mountains 25 plus years, your trip sounds well planned and safe as long as you stick to your plan - early days, down by noon, reducing fuel load, lean for takeoff, etc.

Further, for the route (North through Wyoming westbound and south of Colorado eastbound) and airfields you’ve selected, I don’t think extra training or a “checkout” is warranted.  You’re not crossing the rockies near C Springs, using short mountain strips or landing at Leadville.  

Just my opinion.

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned... survival equipment.  Pretty darn remote out here.  Plan to spend at least one night if you land out.  Have a basic survival kit and water.  Do you have a 406mhz elt?  As someone mentioned, you won’t always have flight following.

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

I am Washington state right now between Pasco and Yakima.  I’m going to checkout the cub crafters factory here. Maybe a carbon cub. I had wanted to fly my family out here in our F, but after studying the MEAs around SLC and north, I decided to leave that mission for another day with different equipment.   I’m sure the F could have done it ok, but I didn’t want to deal with having the whole family on oxygen and being that heavy at that high DA.   If it had been just me +1, I probably would have done it.   I think you’ll have fun Bob.   Good luck!

This is a big difference between the west and midwest/east... MSAs do not tell the story.  Yes, if you want to fly ifr they are important and you’ll likely be on oxygen.  However, if you look closer at the sectionals you can usually stay 3k+ agl but below ~11,000.  Is this always possible? No.  However, slight changes to routing to stay over lower terrain and flying vfr open up lots more options.  Also, the weather is generally much better out west.  50 nm plus is common visibility.  I also try to route over airfields because emergency airfields are few and far between in places.

[mooneygirl]

18 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

 

Thanks, Jolie, do you run up to full power to set mixture or do you maximize RPM at some lower power before departing a high DA field?

Ross, what technique do you have for setting mixture before takeoff?

(I lean to max RPM a low power for taxiing but I doubt that'd where I'd want mixture to be at full throttle.

I tend to lean aggressively on taxi anyway, for high DA I lean for taxi. Then while doing the run up I do lean for best RPM with throttle full in. Make sure your feet are on the brakes! 

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, mooneygirl said:

I tend to lean aggressively on taxi anyway, for high DA I lean for taxi. Then while doing the run up I do lean for best RPM with throttle full in. Make sure your feet are on the brakes! 

This is definitely a legitimate technique and reduces the need to fiddle with mixture during takeoff, however I’ve had trouble with my “maximum rpm” setting during runup being too lean and trying to cook cylinders during climb at high DA.  You’re slow and the air is thin, so keep an eye on the engine monitor.  Target egt works much better for my engine.

[gsxrpilot]

While I like to give advice as much as the next guy, @Bob_Belville will be just fine with his Mooney in the mountains. I'm pretty sure he's been flying Mooneys longer than I've been alive, and has more Mooney hours than all of us put together. He might not have mountain experience as we know of it out west, but he's flown over plenty of tiger country up and down the Appalachians in the east. And I'm not sure that a cool, crisp morning in West Yellowstone is any more difficult for his E than a hot and humid summer afternoon in Carolina.

He's got an EDM-930 that will tell him where the engine is happiest, regardless of the DA, and he's got an eyeball that can measure AOA to +/- half a degree just looking out the window. 

I'll see you in Madison my friend. And I've got a home for that beautiful M20Echo if you stop at BJC. You'll have a great time.

[kortopates]

All the airports on the list will have density altitude challenges well discussed. But the only truly challenging airport on the list IMO is MMH. I probably have a few hundred landing and takeoff's from Mammoth Airport - all from being a avid skier there and a season pass holder. We even kept an airport car there for over a decade till parking expenses pushed us to move the car down to Bishop.

Flying into MMH is easy till you have to go around. The winds, which is the typical reason for going around, will give anyone far greater difficulty on the go around approaching on 27 with rising terrain in every direction on the go. Landing on 27 is definitely preferred, you just don't want your initial Mammoth experience to involve a go around trying to land on 27. Consequently I would advise not trying it for the first time in a NA aircraft without only very mild non-gusty winds.  You don't want to get forced into going around. You can pick up the ASOS well before you come in for landing, and if the winds are gusty or with a significant cross wind (typically from the south),  my advice is go to nearby BIH ( as Skip mentioned above) which is much lower with 6 long runways and you won't have near as much turbulence MMH is famous more. If you are landing on 27 and it is bumpy with a crosswind, suggest heeding the advice you'll hear on the ASOS to skip the first thousand feet or two landing on 27.  There is hill right past the threshold of 27 that when the winds are right can make for a very interesting ride when you are about to flare or thought you just did and surprise! 

Its easier to land a bit uphill to west on 27 and take off to the east on 9 which is a bit downhill. I'll always take off to the east even with a tail wind since you'll be taking off in the direction of lower terrain over Lake Crowley, winds have to be over 10 kts before I start considering taking off to the west. Most mishaps if not all that I am aware have been with NA aircraft taking off to the east. Even with my turbo, a westerly departure is always exciting since with winds in the mountains there is almost always turbulence and with turbulence your airspeed is diminished which significantly diminishes your climb rate till you are able to get higher into smoother air.  With a NA aircraft I would want to wait till a easterly takeoff was safely doable.

My personal rule is to arrive before noon or an hour or two before sunset. The worst time to arrive is in the early afternoon but on windy days that window expands to include before noon. Following that rule, only twice in my years of flying in did I have to divert to BIH, and one of those times I was able to get into MMH after just the time we spent to divert for fuel at BIH without any further delay waiting out the winds. The other time, we took the last Inyo shuttle (4pm?) from BIH airport to MMH airport.  These were all winter time trips as summer is typically milder with many beautiful wind free days. But should you find the need to divert to BIH, take advantage of the fantastic Thai food restaurant right on the field, and cheaper gas (but consider Hot Creek will charge a county landing/parking fee waived with a small gas purchase ). 

The only other thing worth mentioning is the Owens Valley turbulence. Its by far the worst turbulence I've ever encountered anywhere but for the most part very predictable and well forecasted in the G-Mets (aviationweather.gov). To fly it safely in turbulent conditions one really needs to learn about predicting where the rotors are and how to avoid them when they're not visible. Easier said than done, but wind direction wrt terrain is just as important, if not more so, than wind magnitude. 

With nice weather, my most scenic flying ever, till flying in Alaska, has been flying the Sierra ridgeline from south to north at 16.5K heading up to Mammoth; especially after a recent snow dump. The Sierra peaks are spectacular and the Yosemite park area with the glacier polished rock faces just north of MMH is breathtaking as well. Have a great time, we all know you will!

[Bob_Belville]

12 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

While I like to give advice as much as the next guy, @Bob_Belville will be just fine with his Mooney in the mountains. I'm pretty sure he's been flying Mooneys longer than I've been alive, and has more Mooney hours than all of us put together. He might not have mountain experience as we know of it out west, but he's flown over plenty of tiger country up and down the Appalachians in the east. And I'm not sure that a cool, crisp morning in West Yellowstone is any more difficult for his E than a hot and humid summer afternoon in Carolina.

He's got an EDM-930 that will tell him where the engine is happiest, regardless of the DA, and he's got an eyeball that can measure AOA to +/- half a degree just looking out the window. 

I'll see you in Madison my friend. And I've got a home for that beautiful M20Echo if you stop at BJC. You'll have a great time.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Paul! I can learn form anyone and I appreciate all the advice from all those who took time to comment.

My current plan has moved the Eastbound portion to the south picking up Yosemite and an aerial tour of the Grand Canyon  (not depicted) so I'll skip Denver but enjoy Gorilla's hospitality in OK.

• Thursday July 18 Minuteman to KPWK (Chicago) eat at Cafe Beograd.need car, room

• Friday July 19 KPWK to KMSN, Holiday Inn Madison WI 

• Saturday July 20: formation flight KMSN-KOSH Camp with Mooney Caravan in “North 40”

• Sunday July 22 Caravan Wisconsin Fish Fry @ Caravan tent

• Monday July 22 MooneySpace pizza @ Caravan tent 

• Wednesday July 24 Brats & Brew at Aspen Avonics

• July 22-28 AirVenture … Air shows every day & 2 nights, war birds, antiques, exhibitors, workshops and seminars... 

• Day 1 Monday July 29 KOSH to KCUT (Custer SD) with brief stops in MN, ND, NE. camp on airport overnight

• Day 2 Tuesday July 30 rental car to Mt. Rushmore then flight to KCOD Yellowstone. Fly over/through Yellowstone land KWYS West Yellowstone. Camp there and rent car for tour through the South Loop of the park - Old Faithful, etc.

• Day 3 Wednesday July 31 KWYS to KDLS (The Dalles OR - Columbia Gorge with stops in Idaho Falls ID, Pasco WA. The leg from Paso to The Dalles follows the Columbia River.

• Day 4 Thursday August 1 The Dalles OR to KMMH Mammoth/Yosemine CA. Scenic flight passing Mt. Hood, Mt. Jefferson, Mt Washington, Three Sisters Mts, Crater Lake, Klamath Lake/Rapids, Mt. Shasta, .

• Day 5 Friday August 2 KMMH  to KPGA Page City AZ with stops in Tonopah NV and Cedar City UT. 

• Day 6 Saturday August 3 KPGA to KSAF Santa Fe NM with aerial tour off Grand Canyon and stop in Cortez CO. (Glen Canyon, 4 Corners) 

• Day 7 Sunday August 4 KSAF to KSUS St. Louis MO with stops in Amarillo TX, Elk City OK, Independence KS

• Day 8 Monday August 5 St. Louis to Minuteman with stop in Dayton OH

 

[ZuluZulu]

Awesome itinerary.  Looks like you're staying north, but if you venture closer to LA, Big Bear (L35) is always worth a visit.  Looking slightly farther north, but still south of your planned route, I haven't been to Kern Valley (L05) yet but it's on my list.

[Skates97]

18 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

Awesome itinerary.  Looks like you're staying north, but if you venture closer to LA, Big Bear (L35) is always worth a visit.  Looking slightly farther north, but still south of your planned route, I haven't been to Kern Valley (L05) yet but it's on my list.

Kern Valley is great, and really fun to fly into. I went there last summer just for the fun of flying there, didn't stop at the cafe but I heard it is fairly good. It's a fun approach along the hills on the downwind leg.

Not the best video, but this was the end of the flight.

Nice little campground and the river is a short walk away.

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

  Also, the weather is generally much better out west.  50 nm plus is common visibility.  

...and that's on a hazy day.

[The Other Red Baron]

1 hour ago, Skates97 said:

Kern Valley is great, and really fun to fly into. I went there last summer just for the fun of flying there, didn't stop at the cafe but I heard it is fairly good. It's a fun approach along the hills on the downwind leg.

Not the best video, but this was the end of the flight. 

Nice little campground and the river is a short walk away.

Reminds me of the theme song from Wings.

[mooneygirl]

16 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

This is definitely a legitimate technique and reduces the need to fiddle with mixture during takeoff, however I’ve had trouble with my “maximum rpm” setting during runup being too lean and trying to cook cylinders during climb at high DA.  You’re slow and the air is thin, so keep an eye on the engine monitor.  Target egt works much better for my engine.

For sure you have to have an eye on that temp gauge. I also adjust on the take off roll. Once I am up and established in the gentle climb [on hot days with high DA is about 400-500 fpm] I rich the mixture to avoid overheating.  I am sure to get some experience as I leave for OSH next week! 

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, mooneygirl said:

For sure you have to have an eye on that temp gauge. I also adjust on the take off roll. Once I am up and established in the gentle climb [on hot days with high DA is about 400-500 fpm] I rich the mixture to avoid overheating.  I am sure to get some experience as I leave for OSH next week! 

I noticed this as well when I was flying a C in the mountains. Everyone always says lean, lean, lean. But I found myself richening up right after take off to keep the temps down in the climb. 

Just let that EDM-930 be your guide. It will tell you where the engine is happy. 

[larryb]

Back in the 80's my first airplane after getting my PPL was a 150 HP 1969 American Yankee. Those came from the factory with 115HP O235. Mine had an STC'd O320 at 150HP installed.  On my first takeoff out of Truckee (5900')  I leaned as I had been taught with a full power runup.  No real instrumentation at the time. I don't think it even had a single EGT, just a single CHT. Takeoff was very sluggish. Once I cleared the trees and had a little altitude I was confident enough to experiment with the mixture. Just a little richer and I could really feel the power increase.  I learned then to lean for max RPM on runup and then push in the mixture a bit. I also learned that what I was taught in my initial training almost put me in the trees.

[Ned Gravel]

On 7/10/2019 at 3:43 PM, gsxrpilot said:

It's in ForeFlight. And yes, don't miss it if you're in the area.

Depends what time of year.  This time of year should not be too bad. 

March has a whole pile of mechanical turbulence over the Grand Canyon routes that kept Ute and I out of them in 2015.  Locals told us they would not fly on those days.

[Dan208]

Sounds like an Awesome trip Bob  . I wish I was going to be in Idaho Falls to introduce myself and put eyes on that Beautiful E . If the weather is nice you might consider the short hop over to KDIJ  .  Driggs is my favorite side of the Tetons .

[midlifeflyer]

On 7/11/2019 at 5:59 PM, gsxrpilot said:

While I like to give advice as much as the next guy, @Bob_Belville will be just fine with his Mooney in the mountains. I'm pretty sure he's been flying Mooneys longer than I've been alive, and has more Mooney hours than all of us put together. He might not have mountain experience as we know of it out west, but he's flown over plenty of tiger country up and down the Appalachians in the east. And I'm not sure that a cool, crisp morning in West Yellowstone is any more difficult for his E than a hot and humid summer afternoon in Carolina.

He's got an EDM-930 that will tell him where the engine is happiest, regardless of the DA, and he's got an eyeball that can measure AOA to +/- half a degree just looking out the window. 

I'll see you in Madison my friend. And I've got a home for that beautiful M20Echo if you stop at BJC. You'll have a great time.

I guess spending 20 years reading repeated reports of people crashing in the mountain west while flying the highly capable airplanes they had flown for years, and doing mountain training flights with transients  has made me more conservative than others in guessing someone else's knowledge and ability of high density altitude mountain operations.

Edited July 14, 2019 by midlifeflyer

[mike_elliott]

On 7/10/2019 at 8:30 PM, Bob_Belville said:

 

Thanks, Jolie, do you run up to full power to set mixture or do you maximize RPM at some lower power before departing a high DA field?

Ross, what technique do you have for setting mixture before takeoff?

(I lean to max RPM a low power for taxiing but I doubt that'd where I'd want mixture to be at full throttle.

Bob, suggest using the target egt method. I imagine you know already what the Takeoff EGT of the highest cylinder is at sea level on a std day for your E. Just lean and keep it leaned to that number while climbing. Go LOP once in cruise.

[midlifeflyer]

18 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Bob, suggest using the target egt method. I imagine you know already what the Takeoff EGT of the highest cylinder is at sea level on a std day for your E. Just lean and keep it leaned to that number while climbing. Go LOP once in cruise.

That's a great method for hitting your target EGT for leaning even at altitude (whether LOP or ROP). But the typical  leaning for high D-Alt takeoff in a normally aspirated airplane involves something richer than best power to allow for better cooling. Basically, neither our engines nor airfoils (including prop) are as powerful/efficient at higher density altitudes so they work harder - think of an extended climb at cruise power  with your wings providing less life and your prop providing less thrust.

[Ragsf15e]

43 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I guess spending 20 years reading repeated reports of people crashing in the mountain west while flying the highly capable airplanes they had flown for years, and doing mountain training flights with transients  has made me more conservative than others in guessing someone else's knowledge and ability of high density altitude mountain operations.

In my opinion, it depends on what the person actually does in the mountains and how conservative/safety conscious they are.  If they only fly in the morning, use long runways, carefully plan routes, and don’t cross the highest ranges, I’d say a moderately experienced “flatlander” will be just fine.  

People get in trouble when they plan properly for that morning departure and then let it slip to 1pm, it gets hot/windy and they go for it anyway.  Or they try to land at a 3,000’ strip at 7,000’ DA and expect sea level performance.  

Bob doesn’t seem like the kind of guy who’s going to let those gotchas get him.

Anyone read Flying?  Still amazes me that one of their new writers first story was about totaling his Bonanza in Telluride.  Classic delayed departure, high DA.  Personally, I don’t think he’s taken enough responsibility for the high DA yet.  Still blaming a gusty crosswind just above the runway that nobody knew about.  High DA makes other hazards much worse than they might normally be.

[Ragsf15e]

6 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

That's a great method for hitting your target EGT for leaning even at altitude (whether LOP or ROP). But the typical  leaning for high D-Alt takeoff in a normally aspirated airplane involves something richer than best power to allow for better cooling. Basically, neither our engines nor airfoils (including prop) are as powerful/efficient at higher density altitudes so they work harder - think of an extended climb at cruise power  with your wings providing less life and your prop providing less thrust.

Agree that it’s richer than best power, but my seal level egt (Target egt) works very well for good power/cooling.  I keep that target through climb by continuously leaning.  When I level off and lean for cruise, I usually find the engine around 200 ROP-ish.