M20 short body guide, gotchas, and mission advice

[carusoam]

The most amazing secret in Mooney aviation...

• 200hp
• fuel injection
• built in 1966
• performs better than many things built in 2016, 50 years later...
• full instrumentation allows you to know how well the engine is performing before it is in the air...
• having an AOAi can really help with carrying too much energy to the runway...
• Using an app like CloudAhoy, with a WAAS source allows you to measure your T/O and landing performance... each time.
• get used to collecting and reviewing your own data...
• practice on long paved fields, then bring your experience to the shorter, grass field...
• Use Paul’s advice above... depart light, go to a longer paved runway to pick up fuel and family...
• 10kts high on landing uses up an extra 1k’ of runway...
• not touching down near the numbers, on speed... quickly turns into a go-around...
• Transition Training in your Mooney is a great way to get to know the new 2U machine...

Go make some friends with the two Mooney people at the field... what could be a better resource than that?

’hi, my name is -a-, can I ask you a few questions about your Mooney?’

This works really well, if your name is actually -a-.  

PP thoughts only, not a CFI....

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Bob_Belville]

3 hours ago, DartMan said:

Thx for all the replies and information!  I should add a few things regarding mission and conditions to continue the assessment.  First, I had a typo..field is 2400’ (ok, not much better but accurate) Most of the time I will be solo doing a work related trip.  During the times my family is with me, we would almost always be taking off in the morning with density altitude below 2000’ or going somewhere within 200 miles and not requiring full fuel.  Our current combined weight without luggage is under 310lbs.

there are two Mooney based at this field now but both are much newer than what I can afford so the comparison may not be fair.  More importantly both are flown by pilots with lots of total time and likely 1000+ Hours in type.  I am sure the airplane can do it when weight and DA are managed but I’m trying to assess how wise it is from my low-time stand point and if it is something I should do rather than something that is technically possible.  I’m capable of precision flying and train easily but I’m no fool and do not mix up the difference between aptitude and experience.  it sounds like precision is the name of the game on a Mooney and that you can’t be precise most of the time but rather 100% of the time or bad things can happen.

in simple terms and to compare with what is on the field, do the older Mooney’s with 200hp perform same, better or worse than the later ones in short field work?

You have a great resource in the 2 Mooney owners based on your field. Be sure to get their advice. Not all short fields are equal... are the approaches clear? Being able to drag it in with stabilized speed @ 1.2 Vso is easier than dropping in over trees. Likewise do you have to clear trees close to the end of the runway? Is there a slope that allows you to land uphill and depart downhill?

There might be exceptions and performance charts should be compared but I suspect the C and especially the E will show at least as good short field performance as later models. Wing loading is lighter. My E has essentially the same wing and engine as a J but my max gross wt is 2575# whereas an older J is 2740# and later ones are 2900#. And long body Mooneys with much more HP also weigh a lot more carried on the same 3 tires so few long body owners like to go into grass strips. There are a few higher HP mid bodies that out perform but there are relatively rare and I suppose the Mooneys on your field are likely to be Js, perhaps Ks.

And the pre J Mooneys do not have inner gear doors which ride lower to the ground and sometimes get bend on rougher fields. 

In my experience (3000 hours over 50 years in vintage Mooneys, probably 500 hours based at a grass strip) the Mooney gear is plenty rugged. The Cs and Es are pretty "short coupled" and taxiing should be done carefully to prevent a nose dip crossing a depression. 

[steingar]

If I had to bring my Mooney into an occluded 2400 foot strip at the end of every flight I'd be looking for something else.  If I had to land one that had an unoccluded approach I'd do it without hesitation.  If the minority of my trips involved filing the seats I'd load everyone up from someplace longer nearby.  It is true that with a strip that short you need to bet on your A game coming in.  That said, you should be on your A game all time.  Aviation is a cruel mistress unforgiving of mistakes.

The extra ponies of an E might be a help getting out of there, but I doubt they're actually needed. You can look up POH's on this site to see what kind of takeoff rolls one needs in a Mooney.  Add 10% for grass.  I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Jerry 5TJ]

You don’t want to hear anecdotally that I sometimes flew my E into a 1800’ grass strip, around 2200’ to tall trees.  Which I did.   

You need to hear the rest of the story— that I only did so when solo, light on fuel, the grass was dry and only when the wind was favorable.  

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

You don’t want to hear anecdotally that I sometimes flew my E into a 1800’ grass strip, around 2200’ to tall trees.  Which I did.   

You need to hear the rest of the story— that I only did so when solo, light on fuel, the grass was dry and only when the wind was favorable.  

That's a great point Jerry. A pilot has to take into account the entire context. I'm planning a trip out west after KOSH and will be using airports at over 7000' which might be much higher than that DA. A 5000' runway might be marginal if the terrain is menacing. 

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

You don’t want to hear anecdotally that I sometimes flew my E into a 1800’ grass strip, around 2200’ to tall trees.  Which I did.   

You need to hear the rest of the story— that I only did so when solo, light on fuel, the grass was dry and only when the wind was favorable.  

I still bow down to you  

[Bob_Belville]

CloudAhoy tracks my flights. The last 7 flights recorded take off rolls: 1164', 1060, 1265, 1305, 1022, 1037, 1224. The 1265 and 1305 were at gross weight and high OAT to/from Longview TX.

The Landings: 1298', 1812, 2430, 2492, 3206, 1529, 1881. All of the landing were on 5500' or longer runways so no special effort would have been made for short field performance. The 3206' was at 90 kias over the threshold, no flaps, in a 2 ship element during our Caravan formation clinic. The 2492' was at the end of a 5-1/2 hour flight terminating in a GPS approach with 400' ceiling so I was probably carrying extra speed and the plane was light. 

My point is our planes are very capable of operating inside even 2000' if the pilot is capable of arriving at the threshold at the proper height and speed.   

 

[drapo]

For what it's worth, prior to my purchase, my M20E was based in upstate New York at a private 1800' grass strip.

My ferry pilot told me that it was OK, since there were plenty of fields on both sides, but he wouldn't have taken-off with more than a passenger and over half-full tanks.

[Bob_Belville]

Don't tell @mooneygirl that 2400' is not long enough for a Mooney. She loves L52, Oceano CA, which is 2325'.

[gsxrpilot]

@Bob_Belville has a few more Mooney hours than I... and all my friends put together  but there's no question the best short field/soft field Mooney would be an M20Echo.

[DustinNwind]

Hi @DartMan,

 

I can attest to the short field prowess of the M20E as I fly into SZP all the time - 2,665' runway. I have a stunning 1965 M20E that I'm selling with a stellar pedigree maintenance history and all the speed mods you'd want, and almost a new engine. www.N5763Q.com

Also check out PiperPainter on youtube. The stuff he did with a Mooney is incredible. 

 

 

[DustinNwind]

<3

[gsxrpilot]

"Trees? What Trees" And he only use half of that strip.

[DustinNwind]

1 minute ago, gsxrpilot said:

"Trees? What Trees" And he only use half of that strip.

Wild isn't it! That stall was perfect.

[RogueOne]

1 hour ago, DustinNwind said:

<3

Great piloting/airmanship.  I would never do this, but I love watching it done so well.

[Hank]

6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

@Bob_Belville has a few more Mooney hours than I... and all my friends put together  but there's no question the best short field/soft field Mooney would be an M20Echo.

While I only have a fraction of Bob's time myself, my C with a 3-blade Hartzell prop will climb with or above many Es . . . . .

[HRM]

7 minutes ago, Hank said:

...my C with a 3-blade Hartzell prop will climb with or above many Es . . . . .

[HRM]

On 6/25/2019 at 3:04 PM, DartMan said:

thx for any help in advance!

[carusoam]

Hey @DartMan,

there are a few updates waiting for you... including actual distance data collected by Bob in his M20E...

Best regards,

-a-

[Immelman]

Dude, let's keep this simple: If you plan to fill all 4 seats on any of a routine basis with your family, you need more than a short body Mooney.

I love my airplane, a 66E I have owned for 12 years, but it is just right for 2 of us and gear. With 3, its a real stretch...  4... forget about it.

I guarantee what will happen if you do not get enough airplane, is that the airplane will be used for your solo work trips, and maybe a little jaunt here or there. And if you are solo, the short grass will probably work out OK.

If you load it up, the safety margin will start declining very quickly.

Get a 182 with a big engine.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Immelman

[steingar]

13 hours ago, DustinNwind said:

<3

My hero!

[DartMan]

This has been a fantastic thread folks!  Thank you.  It seems like the E type is doable but with more weight and wind limitations than a 182 which would translate into fewer flying days or having to fly to a different airport to load and gas up...which would probably cost more time that what I gain in speed for all but a max-range trip.

155kts and 10-gph sure is tempting though!  Especially as compared to 135kts @ 13gph.  Plus Mooneys look good.

i have some thinking to do.

[RogueOne]

13 hours ago, Hank said:

While I only have a fraction of Bob's time myself, my C with a 3-blade Hartzell prop will climb with or above many Es . . . . .

C model is perfect for “Chip”.

[Prior owner]

19 hours ago, DustinNwind said:

Hi @DartMan,

 

I can attest to the short field prowess of the M20E as I fly into SZP all the time - 2,665' runway. I have a stunning 1965 M20E that I'm selling with a stellar pedigree maintenance history and all the speed mods you'd want, and almost a new engine. www.N5763Q.com

Also check out PiperPainter on youtube. The stuff he did with a Mooney is incredible. 

 

 

No asking price in the ad...at least, I couldn’t find one. Hopefully the old adage isn’t true, since ”I had to ask” .   Seriously though- that’s a tidy looking E!

[DustinNwind]

Sorry about that, $67,500. Thank you!