Looking at a C, PPI question

[Wrench978]

1 minute ago, MikeOH said:

^^^ THIS ^^^

It isn't the purchase price that's gonna kill ya.

I agree with that.  but keeping the purchase price lower helps with the availability of funds for maintenance down the road.

[Marauder]

I agree with that.  but keeping the purchase price lower helps with the availability of funds for maintenance down the road.

But then again, you may find an airplane that costs a bit more but the owner clearly took care of it. Harder to find, but worth searching for.


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[Wrench978]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

 

But then again, you may find an airplane that costs a bit more but the owner clearly took care of it. Harder to find, but worth searching for.


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yup...  I could always build!  lol.  I would love to, but I would prefer to fly now.  I'll build as a retirement project or something!

[MikeOH]

3 hours ago, Wrench978 said:

I agree with that.  but keeping the purchase price lower helps with the availability of funds for maintenance down the road.

100% understand.

I was't trying to come across as harsh; just concerned that you might be looking at low-end planes because money was tight.

Far better to pay $10-$15K more for a plane, than spend the first year or so putting that amount in to bring a low-end plane up to snuff.  While the same amount of money in the end, the second method would be far more aggravating.

[Jim Peace]

10 hours ago, Marauder said:

"would you want to be flying around with your wife in a plane with a bunch of airworthiness squawks?"

That depends 

[Jim Peace]

9 hours ago, Wrench978 said:

For those who are asking, the plane is located in Boulder, CO.

http://www.aest-sales.com/N7870V.html

 

Thoughts?

keep looking.....Take it from me,,you can easily spend another 30k-50k on this plane......you said you want it to travel with so you need to be close to 100% dispatch reliability.  I enjoy that comfort but it cost me 28k for my plane and then another 50+ to make it safe and enjoyable and up to date, ADS etc etc all ADs etc etc all SB's etc etc...all mostly done at a MSC etc etc.

but at nearly 80k into  the plane I am still way under what a later model mooney would cost me because I would still have to put 10s of thousands into anything I would buy that would be newer....

Good luck in your search

Edited March 11, 2019 by Jim Peace

[chriscalandro]

That 25k annual looks like it addressed the cage corrosion, which it probably had. That's a big one done. 

It's in annual. 

 

Expect it's going to need "stuff" but I think it's at least worth having someone take a look at it. 

 

These guys don't know everything and NOBODY but the current owner and maybe a small few knows anything about this particular airplane. If most of the guys here had their way anything older than 5 years old that couldn't be caught and flipped at a profit would be scrapped.

It's an old airplane.  It's not going to be perfect. If you have money you can put into it you will never make your money back, but it might still provide the platform you want. 

[David_H]

All one has to do is to ask is ... do you feel lucky?

[cliffy]

We'll do ya punk?  :-) :-)

[Guest]

8 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

That 25k annual looks like it addressed the cage corrosion, which it probably had. That's a big one done. 

It's in annual. 

 

Expect it's going to need "stuff" but I think it's at least worth having someone take a look at it. 

 

These guys don't know everything and NOBODY but the current owner and maybe a small few knows anything about this particular airplane. If most of the guys here had their way anything older than 5 years old that couldn't be caught and flipped at a profit would be scrapped.

It's an old airplane.  It's not going to be perfect. If you have money you can put into it you will never make your money back, but it might still provide the platform you want. 

I think you may be overstating it.  Many of the posters here have a lot of Mooney experience and don’t want to see anyone buy an airplane, old or new and get screwed financially.

Here is just one example of what can go wrong in an older airframe,

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/11834-just-learned-my-c-is-junk/

Clarence

[Yetti]

7 hours ago, David_H said:

All one has to do is to ask is ... do you feel lucky?

Nope that one is "Know when to fold them" "Know when to RUN"    

This is the one you are looking for

 

[Bob_Belville]

9 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

<snip

These guys don't know everything and NOBODY but the current owner and maybe a small few knows anything about this particular airplane. If most of the guys here had their way anything older than 5 years old that couldn't be caught and flipped at a profit would be scrapped.

<snip>

Chris, perhaps you've been lurking here for a while but your post count implies you might not be familiar with MooneySpace, particularly those member who have taken the time to comment above. IMNSHO, you're way off base with this statement. 

[HRM]

Frankly, I think PPIs are overrated. The key is the logs and the latest annual.

You should be able to read through the logs and get a very good idea of the state of the aircraft. If not, if the logs are spotty, poorly maintained, etc., then run, don't walk away from it.

If the logs look good, look to who did the last annual. Have a conversation. If that goes well, fine, if not, well, run.

Lastly, if all this looks good then have the shop who will do your annuals do an annual. If the plane just had an annual then the one you order should be flawless and at minimal cost, no?

I just did the annual on my Mooney. Believe me, if it is done properly any gotchas will be discovered. In fact, you may want to be there while the pre-purchase annual is done. Get a good look at all the workings of the bird. The older she is, the more you, as owner, will need to know about her anyway.

Good luck.

[Runway37]

I bought an E in 1978. There was no internet (Mooneyspace) or wise old aviators to enlighten me so I was on my own. The salesman assured me the airplane purred like a kitten and was in great shape. First annual was 1/3 of the purchase price. The engine case was cracked, tanks needed reseal, etc.

Not relating my (in)experience to discourage you or scare anyone else, but if I were to do it again, this forum would be my best freind.

Good luck, enjoy the hunt, every plane you research or look at will give you a  better understanding of the intricacies of these magic machines.

[rbridges]

9 hours ago, David_H said:

All one has to do is to ask is ... do you feel lucky?

You can't mix Kenny Rogers and Clint Eastwood references in a mooneyspace reply. 

[Oldguy]

@Wrench978 I don't know anything about this one, but it is here on MS and seems to fit within your price range, although at the top end. Plus, it appears to be in Florida, so getting to see it would not be as difficult. I am sure others will join in for comments.

On 3/9/2019 at 7:14 PM, graybob1 said:

I have a 66 M20E Super 21 with some decent mods.  I am upgrading to a J.  I bought the E last May and use it to commute daily from KVNC to KOPF.  Nice plane, I just got my annual bonus and the J would save me 15-20 minutes each way.  Here's a link from when I bought it last year and what I have done so far:

https://mooneym20e.webs.com/detailsspecs.htm

 

Annual May 2018 

 

new electric fuel pump

new fuel and oil lines

2 new magnetos

Sarasota avionics went through the Kings and resealed the cowl.

All log books.  I am the third owner (1 year for me)

PJ's air service (phil jimenez) does the maintenance.

 

19 hours ago, graybob1 said:

$40,000

Engine currently has 1650.  Since I fly it almost daily that will be going up.

 

[ragedracer1977]

When I bought my C, I looked here for advice.  After that, I started looking for the nicest example I could find.  I found a very very good one just under 50k almost 2 years ago. 

I had a PPI done.  I went and flew the plane.  It really was everything it was advertised as. 

In almost 2 years, I've had to scrub only 3 flights.  One because a freshly overhauled magneto self destructed, one because somehow the glass fell out of the rpm/MP gauge, and one because the throttle cable broke. 

I've put almost 500 hours on my plane in under 2 years. 

The market for C's seems to be topped at around 60k right now, with most really nice examples in the 50k range.  Spend the extra 20k on a really nice plane with all the bells and whistles, but still put aside 10k for repairs. There always will be some needed.  I almost guarantee that you will spend less this way than buying the cheapest plane you can find.  

I just looked. 269 flights in C. 3 scrubs. 98.8% dispatch rate

[chriscalandro]

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Chris, perhaps you've been lurking here for a while but your post count implies you might not be familiar with MooneySpace, particularly those member who have taken the time to comment above. IMNSHO, you're way off base with this statement. 

Sorry, I had not realized the previous posters already looked at the airplane and the logs. Because that's through only way to know what is being presented.

 

I've been around long enough to see the same thread of bad luck recycled many many times.

 

Thank you for your opinion. I'll go ahead and file it in the wtfdytya drawer. 

Edited March 11, 2019 by chriscalandro

[David_H]

53 minutes ago, rbridges said:

You can't mix Kenny Rogers and Clint Eastwood references in a mooneyspace reply. 

I didn't think Clint would show up until the first Annual... then he sneaks into my own words.

[Sabremech]

20 hours ago, cliffy said:

As a 55 year A&P and 17 year Mooney owner, you can do lots better with some more looking. To me there are too many red flags on this one. 

To be honest- for me, the panel is garbage. Many mods that need to be looked at for legal entries in the logs.

If the elevator has a patch, that is not allowed by Mooney (I have that direct from them)

The engine is a long time from overhaul and sat for many years. Too much chance of a cam going flat 

Just the mention in the ad that the engine is noted to go twice the normal TBO is enough for me to be very cautious of the seller (ask here how many have ever gone twice the TBO )

Over 7000 hours on the airframe? 

There is a reason why it is priced so low and its probably going to sell for a lot less (maybe to the "Grim Reaper" right here :-)

Do yourself a favor and keep looking. If its too good to be true, its too good to be true. You can do better even in this lower price range. Many OK to good ones have sold for $30-35,000. Someone on this forum might even know of a better buy out there. We've seen better here AND we've seen many times where someone buys a "too good to be true" Mooney only to wind up with a money pit.  Buying long distance only makes the issues even more important to nail down.

Here are my rules for buying airplanes-

 

NEVER buy the first airplane you look at ( I know you have distance issues but it still holds true)

Its the same whether its an RV or an airplane- NEVER trust ANYTHING a salesman is telling you NEVER, NEVER. Always verify everything!

 

Find a copy of the book - "Purchasing and Evaluating Airplanes" by Brian Jacobson and pay particular attention the chapter 10, Purchase and Sale Contract.

Lots of people are willing to help you right here on the forum. Not trying to burst your bubble just trying to make your first experience enjoyable. Looking is half the fun. Don't short change yourself on that. There will ALWAYS be another airplane to look at.

 

 

Hi Cliff,

 "If the elevator has a patch, that is not allowed by Mooney".  This might not be allowed by Mooney but can be done using a military structural repair manual ( TM 55) and AC 43.13 as approved data. I've repaired dings in several flight controls over the years using the TM 55 Military structural repair manual and AC 43.13.

 The elevator patch may be just fine in this case in the eyes of the FAA if the right data was used for the repair.

 David

[Guest]

8 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

Sorry, I had not realized the previous posters already looked at the airplane and the logs. Because that's through only way to know what is being presented.

 

I've been around long enough to see the same thread of bad luck recycled many many times.

 

Thank you for your opinion. I'll go ahead and file it in the wtfdytya drawer. 

Time to grow up a bit.

Clarence

[Wrench978]

I appreciate all of the input here.  I have decided to move on from this particular plane.  too many red flags to make it even worth taking the next step.  The logs have been informative though.  the "recent gear donuts, tank reseal, big money annual 150 hours ago" being 11 years ago is a joke... aren't pucks only supposed to be good for 10-15 years?  hopefully you guys will tolerate me posting a few more planes as I keep searching.  I value opinions from people who know far more than I.

[Bob_Belville]

10 minutes ago, Wrench978 said:

<snip> ...aren't pucks only supposed to be good for 10-15 years?  

The life of the shock disks depends upon several factors most importantly the weight of the plane. Long bodies are much harder on the same disks than little Cs and Es. Mine were last replaced in 2002 by Maxwell and are still within spec.

[Wrench978]

5 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

The life of the shock disks depends upon several factors most importantly the weight of the plane. Long bodies are much harder on the same disks than little Cs and Es. Mine were last replaced in 2002 by Maxwell and are still within spec.

good to know.  Thanks

[TX-Champ]

There's a lot of good advice here but I'll add something else that hopefully won't upset too many Mooney owners.  I've owned 9 airplanes over more than 25 years and currently have my second Mooney.

A Mooney isn't a good first airplane due to the age and added complexity of the systems.  A better choice to get used to the maintenance responsibilities and cost of ownership (upkeep, hangar, insurance, etc.) is a more basic airplane like a solid 172 or Cherokee.  You can always move up to a Mooney later...