Yoke, Flaps, Brakes, and Landings

[Txbyker]

Being relatively new at Mooney ownership (1987 M20J) I have some questions for you guys in regards to landings.  What do you do with the yoke when all 3 wheels are down, leave it neutral, keep elevators up, push them down, flaps at full?

The reason I ask this is that when I land I seem to continue to float down the runway even though all three wheels are down and throttle is at idle.  If I apply the brakes hard to try to slow before a taxiway exit I can skid very easily which tells me I dont have a lot of weight on the tires.  I have missed a desired exit or two.

Do you push forward on the yoke to create more weight on the wheels or just leave it neutral?  I have a lot of hours in C172s and was taught often to keep the yoke back and noise up to lighten weight there.  I might be favoring a pulled back yoke position which in my mind will keep the plane light on the wheels.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Elevator up, if anything.  I bring the flaps up to increase the weight on the main gear, which also increases braking capability.  If you have the elevator up, that will also increase the weight on your wheels with braking capability.

Pretty much no good reason to have weight on the nosegear.

[Piloto]

You may be coming a little bit too fast on final. Trim the plane for 70kts on final. Under no circumstance push the yoke forward. This would create purposing of the nosewheel with the possibility of a prop strike. The skidding and floating can be eliminated by raising the flaps just before touch down (about 3ft AGL). This would assure a positive ground contact and improve your braking.

José

[Hank]

I use them all on every landing, and usually differently.

Typically [think, think, think! Pay attention on the next few, report back!] I raise my flaps once I have directional control established on the roll out, to increase weight on the wheels. This slows me down whether I use brakes or not. Steer with rudder, brake only as necessary. Pads are cheap on the car, expensive on the plane.

I give enough back-yoke for a good flare, and have no idea where it goes when the nose comes down, but I do use my right hand to raise the flaps. No presets, no detents, I have to hold the switch up or they don't move. So I probably relax a lot of back pressure.

A very few landings on a short grass strip have given me the choice of raising flaps in the float a 2' agl or going around; I have done both. Whoever it was that first said "No two landings are ever the same" was exactly correct!

[Txbyker]

Thanks.  Sounds like the concensus is to raise the flaps, something I do not do.

[Skyatty]

I agree with the check your speed on final.  I keep the yoke pretty neutral, maybe a little back to lighten the weight on the nose gear.  I brake slightly until slow enough so I don't have to jam them to make the exit - I don't hurry turn off on the taxiway unless ATC has someone right on my tail.  With all due respect to Parker, I don't touch the flaps until I am off the runway and behind the limit line - then I clean it all up.  Crazy as it seems some people have been known to retract the gear rather than the flaps due to distractions while on the runway or turning off.  JMO.

[DaV8or]

I go elevator neutral and flaps up on the roll out. A bad habit I have is heavy braking. I got all my training at a busy airport environment and was always taught that I should exit the runway ASAP to make the controller's life easier. Also I flew rentals for about 12 years, so never had much concern about tires and pads. Now I have to pay for them.

I don't like to plop down solidly, so I rarely do a true short field landing. 75mph seems to work for me in most situations. I just have to adjust to soaking up a bit more runway than I did in Cessnas and Pipers. Maybe you too?

[fantom]

"Crazy as it seems some people have been known to retract the gear rather than the flaps due to distractions while on the runway or turning off."

Yes, but probably not in Mooneys given where the flap and gear switches are. Once you've gone to the flap switch a couple of times right after touchdown, it's quite helpful and very easy.

The last time I witnessed an accident, it was a Piper whose brakes had locked up after the tower requested him to attempt an immediate turn off the runway for departing traffic from a crossing runway of all things. The Piper wound up in the grass after doing a 180 and had some damage. Whomever was instructing you to always exit the runway ASAP wasn't doing you any favors, Dave. A 200 hour CFI, perhaps?

[RJBrown]

"Crazy as it seems some people have been known to retract the gear rather than the flaps due to distractions while on the runway or turning off.  JMO."

This is not a Mooney problem. It is a Cessna ? problem. With the switches so far apart on our planes I can't imagine it happening. The only time your hand is anywhere near the gear switch is when you are reaching up to use it. At all other times while landing it is down in the throttle/prop/mixture area and close to flaps and cowl flaps.

Sounds as if you are carrying too much speed. Too much float is too much speed.

Land on the mains keep off the nose gear as much as possible. To stop quickly pull in the flaps and pull back on the yoke. If you don't HAVE to stop quickly don't. Sometimes keeping up the speed to reach the next turnoff is the best thing to do.

I rarely land with more than take off flaps. APA has a 10000' runway and landing long and keeping up the speed on rollout gets you off the runway quicker than forcing yourself off at the first turn. Much easier on the equipment also. I hate to buy brakes and tires. Even when practicing short landings I stay off the brakes. Practice ends once down. I don't feel the need to practice HARD braking.

[Cruiser]

raise the flaps as soon as positive control is established ON THE GROUND, not in the air. Slow down just a little bit more on approach.

The stall horn should start sounding as soon as you start the flare and stay on all the time till you are on all three on the ground.

[bd32322]

txbyker i am also new to mooneys and I think that the brakes are a bit weaker than 172s or it may just be my plane (recently flown 172 and arrows before buying this). I do maintain 90 on downwind/base, 80 on final, 70 over the fence and I take out the flaps once established on the roll-out. Gives me smooth landings and I dont care about the length of the roll out too much - but I also noticed the same thing you did - i will sail past some turn offs - and I dont feel too much of a deceleration with the brakes.

[bd32322]

i guess over time i'll get used to the reduced deceleration so I'll know when to expect to stop.... or get my brakes bled and pads checked...

 

i remember I used to be able to skid the tires with the brakes on the rental 172 (accidentally - when i stomped on them).

[Shadrach]

 As others have said it seems you're just a bit too fast. If you fly final at 1.2 x Vso for th plane's approximate weight I think your problem will go away.  I raise flaps as soon as the nose wheel is down. However, typically when my nose wheel is down, I connot pick it up with elevator. Find a long runway and practice full stall, mains first, landings... It will make you more comfortable and proficient. 

When I first started flying Mooneys, I was showing an instructor my technique for "greasing them on" after a FR.  In my mind  everything was going great as we gently kissed the pavement until he pulled the yolk back on roll out... I realized that I was flying the wheels on and not really landing the airplane. It felt smooth, but was poor technique.  Full stall landings (mains first) can be equally smooth but require precise speed control. Summer thermals coming off a hot runway do not make life easier... 

When a medium bodied mooney is properly landed on the mains, the nose can be held off for an additional 3 to 5 seconds or about 250 to 500ft depending on weight and CG...

Here is the formula for calculating stall speed by weight... I listed MGW and 2100lbs for comparison. 2100lbs is light but entirely common weight for me in my M20F when solo...

Vso @MGW 2740lbs = 54 knots = 62mph.

1.2 x 54KIAS=65KTAS = 75mph

1.3 x 54KIAS=70KTAS = 81mph

2100lbs =

2100/2740 = 0.766
Square root of 0.766 = 0.875

0.875 x 54KTAS= 47.25KTAS = 54mph

1.2 x 47.25 KTAS =  56.7KTAS = 65mph

1.3 x 47KTAS = 61.1KTAS = 70mph

If 1.2 x Vso feels uncomfortable, start at 1.3 and try working your way down to 1.2...you'll find what you like.  1.1 is shortfield technique, it's more advanced in terms of proficiency and feels mushy relative to what we're used to...

[Shadrach]

argh...wait = weight...

[jetdriven]

that is an excellent explanation, Ross.  I do that as well, demonstrate that if you can lift the airplane off after touchdown, it wasnt fully stalled to land.  Also, I also hold the nosewheel off until I can't anymore, and aero brake after that. All the weight is on the mains, No need to use brakes most times.

[Shadrach]

BD,

I've never flown a plane that would really throw you forward in your seat under braking. Wheels typically lock up because of speed and or gusts that lighten the weight on them. Hot pavement can also be a factor.  Your brakes may require service.  Try a 40 mph no flap taxi test and see how it stops.  GA aircraft brakes are not manufactured by the AC manufacturer and do not have much of a selection in pad material. My plane shares brake liner p/n with some C210s and Beech Debonairs... Both of which are heavier machines... The actuating system is "Mooney specific" but delivering fluid to the calipers has never been an issue.  I have had my plane comfrotably in and out of several >2000ft strips. I'd be concerned if I was "sailing by" some turnoffs because of a lack of brake effectiveness.

[jetdriven]

if you are havingh trouble stopping, consider you were likely too fast when landing.

 

[M016576]

another option would be to install an AOA indexer- then instead of having to memorize a bunch of different numbers for different gross weights, you could use a single AOA for all your approaches... not sure what that number would be, though.  Anyone know the onspeed AOA (1.2* AOA stall) for a M20J?

Anyone thought about installing an AOA indexer?  Probably my navy background, but I would love to have one in my mooney.....

 

-Job

[Shadrach]

Thanks Jet, I appreciate the endorsement of my technique... Especially given that my log book probably looks like a pamphlet next to yours.

Also... I know the difference between a yolk and a yoke, but it seems sometimes my fingers don't... This lack of editing is for the birds. Is everyone unable to edit posts? Not tryig to hijack...

[Shadrach]

Job -

AOA is on my wish list. I really enjoy doing short field (for me thats <=1800ft) work in my F and would like the additional SA. Still researching the pros and cons of the LRI vs. true AOA indicator...

http://www.liftreserve.com/

[PTK]

In the Performance section of the POH there is a nice little table called Stall Speed vs. Angle of Bank.

As an example, I know that on, say, a base to final turn with 15 degrees flaps I can safely bank 45 degrees if I stay above 71 KIAS, I can bank 60 degrees if I stay above 84 KIAS. Mind you at GROSS WEIGHT.

For straight in we have our airspeed indicator. Bottom of the white arc, 55 KIAS in my case, being the Max weight stall speed in landing config and the bottom of the green arc, 63 KIAS, stall speed no flaps.  

Our airspeed indicator IS our AOA indicator!

What more AOA indicators do we need?

[jetdriven]

Because stall speed varies with weight.  Also thew 55 KIAS assumes zero instrument error, forward CG, and power idle.  At lighter weights or at different conditions (aft CG, power applied, instrument error), the aircraft will stall at a speed lower than 55 KIAS thus the reason for 1.2 Vso.  The 1.2 Vso is the speed at which the AOA wil be the same, regardless of weight.  This is the same technique used in turboprops and jets as well. 

[jlunseth]

Holding the nose back on a Cessna is because of the "Cessna shimmy."  Mooneys don't - shimmy that is.  Can't think of  a reason.  I can't think of a reason for holding the nose off during a normal landing, except for special circumstances such as a soft field, or you need to hold the nose up as long as you can because the gear is going to collapse.

What I do for a normal landing is to hold the plane off as long as possible, and let the airspeed and lift bleed off.  This helps to make sure you are in a flare and the mains will land first, important in a Mooney.  I have an audible stall warning (she says "Stall, Stall") and it goes of on every landing just before or just as the mains touch. 

I save retracting the flaps for unusual situations, such as a short field, or a high/gusty wind landing where you need to land the plane hot to deal with the wind. 

[M016576]

PK-

   Just like jetdriven mentions- the AOA at which airflow seperates from the wing( a stall occurs) is always the same.  So if you're in a loaded up turn with your gear down at max gross weight, you'll stall at the same AOA as a min weight power off stall.  Same holds for accelerated stalls.....

By having an AOA indicator you're not only giving yourself a constant on-speed AOA for the approach, no matter what your weight... you'll also know exactly at which point your aircraft will stall, no matter what condition you're in (turn, loaded up, light weight, straight in, etc, etc). 

If you want safety... an AOA gauge is worth more than an aspen upgrade IMHO... it gives you a piece of the puzzle you don't already have, and simplifies any approach by giving the pilot only 2 numbers to remember- what is your critical AOA where you'll stall and what AOA to use for the approach (crtical plus a buffer).

Like I said- I'm partial to AOA, as that's what we use for our carrier traps in the Navy.... Meatball, Lineup, AOA... Meatball, Lineup, AOA...

[Shadrach]

I feel that retracting flaps in the air is a band-aid for less than optimum technique...if they've been deployed, chances are they'll stay there until I'm on the ground. YMMV...

I hold the nose off for 2 reasons:

1) Doing so ensures that I have employed good technique, measuring every landing on more than just the gentleness of the touchdown breeds discipline.

2) The resulting combination of induced drag (the tail is flying at near critical AOA) and parasitic drag from the angle of the cowl, wings and flaps to the relative wind slows the plane quickly with little to no need for braking under normal conditions...

For short fields the flaps are up immediately after touchdown and there is no energy left to hold the nose off.  When I do a short field, the wing is unloaded in the descent to the TDZ, there is no round out - all flying energy is dissipated in the flare...the yoke is full aft at touchdown, ground effect helps cushion the landing, but the plane makes "positive contact" as they say in the Navy.