Speed Brake Removal Question -- Am I safe for flight?

[Bill E]

I have transitioned from Cessna to Mooney with the purchase of a 1979 M20K 231.  The aircraft has the Rocket Upgrade as well as TKS, long range tanks and speed brakes.  I experienced a speed brake failure and have then out to Precise Flight for  repair and 1,000 hr. inspection.  It is suspected that a fuel leak may have caused the right wing speed brake to fail.  The maintenance facility performing the work will not do fuel tank resealing or bladder installation.  I don't want to put the new speed brakes back in the aircraft until the fuel problem is fixed.  So, I must fly the aircraft to another repair facility where they will install bladders, but want to fly it without the speed brakes reinstalled.  These are 100 Series Precise Flight Electric Speed Brakes.  Does anyone know of an STC or any other advice about flying the aircraft in this condition?  There seems to be no difference in the airframe with or without the speed brake cartridges installed so aerodynamics shouldn't be a problem.   I would think that as long as the cannon plug is secured inside the wing, the panels reinstalled and the circuit breaker tagged & placarded that there wouldn't be a problem.  Only need to go about 25 minutes away to the desired Mooney Service Center.  Any thoughts and ideas for this new Mooniac would be greatly appreciated.

[DonMuncy]

A ferry permit would be a certainty.

[orionflt]

3 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

A ferry permit would be a certainty.

Why? 

Blank off the removed speed breaks; pull and tag breaker and mark speed breaks as inop. 

Brian

[PT20J]

1 minute ago, DonMuncy said:

A ferry permit would be a certainty.

Don’s right. Your A&P should handle the details. Legally the airplane would be considered unairworthy in its current state and without a ferry permit you might find you have no insurance coverage. 

[LANCECASPER]

Precise Flight has blanks that fit over the holes. Since they aren;'t on your required minimum list you should be fine.

I would think long and hard before putting bladders in a K. The K is a traveling machine and you don't want to lose any fuel capacity and your future option of putting in long range tanks.

[ArtVandelay]

Don’s right. Your A&P should handle the details. Legally the airplane would be considered unairworthy in its current state and without a ferry permit you might find you have no insurance coverage. 

Why can’t you mark it INOP? It’s not required for flight (vfr or ifr), remember tomato flames?


Tom

[Bill E]

Thank you Lancecasper.  The aircraft already had long range tanks.  They tell me I'll lose 30 lbs useful load with the bladders.  Just don't want to do a resealing again later.  Hoping this is the last aircraft I buy.  I'll talk to Precise Flight about the blank-off plates.

[Bill E]

17 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Don’s right. Your A&P should handle the details. Legally the airplane would be considered unairworthy in its current state and without a ferry permit you might find you have no insurance coverage. 

Thanks for the advice PT20J!  Definitely will have a conversation with the A&P.  

 

[Marauder]

Thank you Lancecasper.  The aircraft already had long range tanks.  They tell me I'll lose 30 lbs useful load with the bladders.  Just don't want to do a resealing again later.  Hoping this is the last aircraft I buy.  I'll talk to Precise Flight about the blank-off plates.

Bill - I don’t think you can install a bladder system on a plane that has been modified with long range tanks. Check with Grigg’s. http://griggsaircraft.com/fabrication/mooney_bladders


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[Bill E]

Marauder, thanks for the link to Griggs.  I have the A&P at the Mooney Service Center checking with them.

[PT20J]

22 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Why can’t you mark it INOP? It’s not required for flight (vfr or ifr), remember tomato flames?


Tom

Good question! To be airworthy, the airplane has to conform to its type certificate. The Supplemental Type Certificate that allows installation of the speed brakes modified the original type certificate. If they were still installed, you could just mark them inop. But, if you remove them you would either need to return the airplane to its original configuration, or get a ferry permit. 

[Shiny moose]

You do not need a ferry permit, disable and placard as inoperative 

[DonMuncy]

I may have misunderstood. I thought the speed brakes themselves had been removed.

 

[Bill E]

No Don, you had it right.  The speed brakes are out of the aircraft and in for maintenance/repair at Precise Flight.  I just don't want to reinstall them without first having my fuel tanks resealed or bladders installed.  The shop where my Mooney is won't attempt the tank job.  I'm in a rock and a hard place.

[Shiny moose]

Aah then pt20j is correct ! I thought you had bought new replacements and old was still installed but inop. 

[Bill E]

Thanks Shiny Moose.  I have a little bit of homework to do.  Gotta check with Griggs to see if they have the bladders to upfit aircraft with long range tank installation as well as apply for a ferry permit to get the aircraft (with speed brakes removed) to someone qualified to do the work.

 

[kortopates]

There are no bladders for the K models- just through the J model. But don’t worry, a properly done reseal (not just a patch job) will also get you leak free tanks likely well beyond your ownership years. Check with Weep No More, or Wet Wingologist or the MSC in Troutdale OR - they all specialize in reseals plus a couple others do it.


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[Bill E]

Thanks Kortopates!  I've looked at Weep No More.  Seems their solution to dissolve all old sealant and reseal from the bare metal looks impressive -- as seven year warranty too.  Thanks again!  Bill

[Boo111492]

On 2/3/2019 at 6:07 PM, PT20J said:

Don’s right. Your A&P should handle the details. Legally the airplane would be considered unairworthy in its current state and without a ferry permit you might find you have no insurance coverage. 

All you would need is to put the Precise flight blanks over the slots and have your mechanic redo weight and balance. wouldn't this avoid the flight permit?

[A64Pilot]

Issue is, is the TC has been modified by an STC, and with them removed the aircraft no longer conforms to its TC.

I can see that as the letter of the law, but have seen avionics installed by STC, so does removal of that radio for repair ground the aircraft because it no longer conforms? 

If you install a set of Rosen visors by STC, or a clock by STC, how about them? I put Bushwheels on my Maule with an STC, does that mean I couldn’t run regular tires anymore?

Dangerous as it is, but sometimes you have to use common sense, I doubt anyone would ground an aircraft because one of the sun visors was broken and therefore removed.

‘I can see trying to explain to some FAA guy with only airline experience that speed brakes aren’t a flight control.

Just another opinion, worth what you paid for it.

Edited April 12, 2022 by A64Pilot

[carusoam]

Where it would show up in the legal documents…

Know that all long bodies have speed brakes for a reason…

Full flaps, and cross-controlled control inputs has a tendency to blanket the elevator…

Loss of airflow over the tail while slow on approach can lead to a stall condition of the tail, and lawn dart behavior of the plane…

This behavior has been named after the Mooney test pilot that discovered it… RIP.

 

Sooo… discuss handling the plane without speed brakes before flying it…

PP thoughts only, not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

[A64Pilot]

I feel certain that speed brakes are not required safety wise anymore than flaps are. I also would bet lunch that the aircraft has been demonstrated to be safely controllable and capable of flight with both or just one stuck deployed. They are effective and great don’t get me wrong, but I feel certain that the aircraft is safe and controllable in any possible speed brake malfunction. I believe you should be comfortable in approaches and landings without them, just as you should be without the flaps, because one day they ain’t gonna work, and I bet that won’t be on a pretty sunshine windless day either, it will be low IFR at night with a crosswind because bad stuff usually happens at the worst time.

I won’t argue about if you should slip a long body, but if it could blank the elevator like a Fowler equipped Cessna, then it would be prohibited from slips with flaps, just like the Cessna. If it’s not safe to slip one, and it’s not Prohibited, I wouldn’t want to be that Company Test Pilot that didn’t bring that up to the FAA.

[Davidv]

When my brakes were sent back to precise flight for overhaul my mechanic (Experienced MSC) just covered the holes with aluminum tape which lasted fine until the brakes were returned.  They are relatively easy to take out and install yourself.

[PaulM]

My MSC has aluminum plates to replace the speed brake cartridges when they are sent out for repair.  There is nothing in the manual or addendum at require the speed brakes to be used.  They are not on the Kinds of operation equipment limits.   Just a log entry, removed, inop. 

[Tom 4536]

A year ago when my Precise Flight speed breaks needed repair, Precise Flight overnighted "loaner" speed brakes to me to use. That way we could use their boxes to ship my speed brakes. When the repaired speed brakes were returned to me, I sent their "loaners" back to precise Flight. Worked fantastically.