Help me buy a pre-J Mooney...thoughts on a 68C pease

[Brian E.]

Colleagues --  I'm a freshly minted private pilot that's been lurking for some time.  I've read as many threads as I can on here (especially the most recent Nate Lively thread on his quest), looked at buying guides such as Mooneyland, admired all the planes I've missed in the Classifieds here as well.  I've currently narrowed my search down to a couple of M20Cs and a M20F that I've scoured from ASO, TAP, Controller, Barnstormers and the MS Classifieds.  Before I get to the current aircraft that I need your counsel on, I've very clearly read that I need transition training and have found a Mooney CFI in the state at ASH. Additionally, I fully understand the need for a thorough PPI and we have a MSC at ASH as well that I will ask if I can have the PPI done there for aircraft in the local area.

  With that out of the way, the current plane I am contemplating is a 68' M20C on TAP.  I've spoken to the broker about it and am a little more enthusiastic after talking to him. The pictures clearly don't present well.  I plan on looking at the plane on Friday which is why I need your counsel.  He's sent me all the logs from new and here are my concerns based on my review that I would appreciate your feedback:

Concerns:

- Only flown ~10 hrs the last 3 years (looks to be mostly annuals)

- and, only flown <150 hours in the last 8 years

- I'm told the interior is "rough"

- Been/is stored outside

- Engine has 1360 hrs (2k TBO) but was redone in 90 or 92 (I don't have that log with me)

  -- Compressions are: 74, 76, 74, 80 (2018)

  -- In 2016 compressions were: 76, 70, 74, 70 (same shop) no engine done in between--this is curious to me

 

Perceived pluses:

- local, can put eyes on it

- L3 Lynx NGT-9000 (w/wifi) ADSB In/Out installed (2016)

- Fresh annual (12/18)

- Will likely use same shop for next annual to avoid new shop getting to know you costs

- ELT, Altimeter, are all good.

 

Unknown how to evaluate:

- Prop log starts in 2008 with and overhauled Hartzwell HC-C2YK-1B prop (only 210 hours on it)

--Is this subject to ECI inspections?

 

So there it is.  The plane has been on the market for a long while.  Regardless,  $39k seems like a lot to spend on a plane with a run-out engine (yes, it is still signed off by the IA annually).  As I mentioned there's a couple of other planes I'm interested in, specially the '67 M20F pineapple express that Nate mentioned in his thread.  Am I better off buying the local plane that I can put eyes on and send to the MSC or getting a slightly better equipped, mid-sized M20 with ugly but functional paint and interior?  I know these are only thing that I can decide, but I appreciate your perspective as I buy my first aircraft...

 

 

[Boilermonkey]

That's going to be a project airplane.   It has not been flying and has been outside.  I'm not suggesting that you don't buy it at the right price, but know what you are getting into.   New engine, new interior, possible corrosion, likely new gear shock disks, avionics, paint, cowling mod, etc.   I personally would not buy this as my first plane because I don't like dealing with all that stuff, but if you like mechanical projects you would get a chance to do it "your way."

[Seymour]

Welcome, Brian!  

You've clearly learned from the threads here and have a good sense of what you're looking at.    My only question:  What are you looking for in an IFR platform longer term?  

Dave (at KFIT)

[Rwsavory]

 My humble opinion is to keep looking.  The positive factors do not make up for the sad fact this plane has been sitting outside and has not been operated regularly. There simply is no substitute for dry indoor storage and frequent use.

Just for grins I looked at C’s on Controller.   Here is one for just a few dollars more, and looks a whole lot better.   https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/29770961/1962-mooney-m20c

Here’s another one.  https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/30079661/1963-mooney-m20c

Also,  you might find more airplanes for sale as the weather gets warmer. 

Good luck!

 

 

[Brian E.]

Thank you BoilerMonkey--I do want a plane to fly to start, there's a world to see out there

Dave - I wish I knew what I needed for a reasonable IFR platform.  Is an ILS/VOR combo enough w/foreflight (etc.) for SA.  I don't see myself flying hard IFR but I do see doing an IFR let down or pushing through a low ceiling on departure.  Once I get through buying a plane and exploring New England this Spring and Summer an IFR rating is certainly next.  And I recognize this aircraft is marginally equipped for IFR ops.  However, does a GNS 430 (or similar) provide that much additional capability other then enroute navigation and LPV approaches?  Probably beyond the scope of this thread.  As with most, I'm trying to find the sweet spot on this initial purchase.

[neilpilot]

12 minutes ago, Brian E. said:

Thank you BoilerMonkey--I do want a plane to fly to start, there's a world to see out there

Dave - I wish I knew what I needed for a reasonable IFR platform.  Is an ILS/VOR combo enough w/foreflight (etc.) for SA.  I don't see myself flying hard IFR but I do see doing an IFR let down or pushing through a low ceiling on departure.  Once I get through buying a plane and exploring New England this Spring and Summer an IFR rating is certainly next.  And I recognize this aircraft is marginally equipped for IFR ops.  However, does a GNS 430 (or similar) provide that much additional capability other then enroute navigation and LPV approaches?  Probably beyond the scope of this thread.  As with most, I'm trying to find the sweet spot on this initial purchase.

A GNS430W provides huge additional capabilities since many airports have no ILS, and VOR approaches are limited and disappearing but RNAV approaches are becoming almost ubiquitous.

[1964-M20E]

 

Get a pre purchase inspection (PPI) before buying and use another shop not the one that has been doing the annuals.

Using the current shop for future annual not a bad idea but get PPI done by another mechanic.

Realize you will have a project on you hands.  The lack of hours flown recently could be an issue inside the engine but maybe not.

Having an older less equipped plane for getting you IR is not a bad idea.  This forces you to be a navigator, pilot among other things.  GPS is real nice but you get lazy navigating quick with a good GPS in the plane.

 

Should you buy this plane enjoy cleaning it up and making some upgrades.  Once you have flown the plane for a year you can start on avionics and cosmetic upgrades that you want to make if it is a plane you will keep for 5 or more years.  Cosmetic upgrades give you the best looks avionics give you the most utility either of them will be a loss on investment when you go to sell the plane.  However, any upgrade you do is one you get to enjoy while you still own the plane.

Finally, once you have it fly it like you stole it and keep it in the air as much as you can.

[gsxrpilot]

Hi Brian,  Welcome aboard and even better, welcome's to this exclusive little club of humans who know how to fly!  And since you're a newly rated flyer... I'm sure you're ready to go fly. And that means you need an airplane to fly... not to restore to flying condition. I'm with you, I'm a flyer and not a builder. I know pilots with thousands of hours, who are a little bit over the flying, but love to hang out at the airport and tinker on their airplane. I might be there someday, but today I want to fly.

If that describes you as well, by all means stay away from that '68 M20C on TAP. It's a project airplane. It's also over priced. With a fresh engine ($25K minimum) you'd have an M20C worth $35K.

You want to find an airplane that flies every day... or at least every couple of weeks. Find a pilot who's selling his Mooney to get something bigger, faster, or just different. Even a Mooney that flies every day will require plenty of maintenance. It's 50 years old after all. But maintaining a good flying airplane is much easier than bringing one back that doesn't fly.

I wouldn't restrict your search to local planes. As a member of this MooneySpace community, you'll get lots of help. Any of us are willing to go put eyes on a plane for you that's close to us but far from you. We also know good trustworthy shops that will also give you a clear unbiased opinion on a Mooney you might find. 

Finally, going across the country to pick up your airplane and flying it home is one of the great experiences you'd certainly enjoy. Keep looking, we'll help you find a good one. 

[1964-M20E]

I agree with Paul it is over priced.  The most I'd pay for it would be $25k to $30k and $30k is a stretch.

Looks like ADSB out is the only avionics upgrade it has had in many many years.

[Brian E.]

Thank you gsxr. Dave and the pilot Neil.  BTW, I have been looking nationally, and finally elected to call about this one as the "good" planes were selling fast and I couldn't respond as fast.  BTW, Dave's approach is probably my preferred approach: get my foot in the door and perform avionics and cosmetic improvements as time goes on.

  Incidentally, one more reason for an immediately flyable aircraft is that my 17-year old soon will soon have his PP as well.  So our goal would be to get to 200 hrs the first year and then to about 100 hrs/year after that.  How's that for dreaming?

 Finally. I've been eyeing @Mooneymuscle56m aircraft for sale as well.  Haven't call him yet either....

 

[Greg Ellis]

1 hour ago, Rwsavory said:

 My humble opinion is to keep looking.  The positive factors do not make up for the sad fact this plane has been sitting outside and has not been operated regularly. There simply is no substitute for dry indoor storage and frequent use.

Just for grins I looked at C’s on Controller.   Here is one for just a few dollars more, and looks a whole lot better.   https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/29770961/1962-mooney-m20c

Here’s another one.  https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/29770961/1962-mooney-m20c

Also,  you might find more airplanes for sale as the weather gets warmer. 

Good luck!

 

 

Wow...They're identical twins!!!!

[Brian E.]

7 minutes ago, Greg Ellis said:

Wow...They're identical twins!!!!

Yes, they are twins and they're beautiful.  At least, without looking at the logs they show as good and clean all the way.  A parent should be so proud.

Any thoughts on the Pineapple Express?  Cleaner, updated and a classic interior.

 

[DXB]

@Brian E.First - congrats on starting a wonderful journey - I was pretty much in your shoes 5 years ago.  Right now you are looking at a plane that has not flown in 3 years. The fact that it is not out of annual makes me feel only slightly better. Plus it has been 30 years since last overhaul.  It might work out for you, but it is a huge monetary risk for you even with at the 25-30k valuation people suggest above (which I agree with).  Maybe get Jimmy Garrison's new valuation guide (see thread)- it is excellent. 

As a newly minted PP, you want to be transitioning into your Mooney and flying a lot, not dealing with one aircraft maintenance issue after another (including possibly an overhaul).  I bought an actively flown M20C right after my PPL that was in decent but not perfect shape, and the lesser maintenance issues were still a huge source of stress and a time suck for the first couple of years of ownership.  One can and should develop the knowledge base and judgement to triage these issues intelligently over time with some reading, effort, mooneyspace discussion etc.  But being forced to do it right after your PPL when you need to transition to a Mooney build experience flying could get very frustrating for you.  Buy a plane that is less likely to give you these concerns.  

BTW if you want me to help you look at other short body Mooney options in the northeast, I am happy to do so.  

[steingar]

Run, don't walk from that turkey.  I wouldn't take it on a bet.  My aircraft didn't fly much before I got it (and it doesn't fly enough now, but that's another story) but it was hangared and well cared for. That looks like its been left to rot.  That, and the panel really sux.  Costs a lot to bring those things up to snuff.

[carusoam]

Brian,

you have read the book, you know the main character, she is an awesome temptress...

Then you skipped right over the important parts...

1) Outdoor birds require a ton of extra upkeep... Clean and operate often...

2) Planes That fly Often are ready to fly again tomorrow...

3) An independent PPI is used to find things that have not been taken care of by the existing maintenance system...

 

You have two pilots planning on flying 200hrs a year... and no ownership experience...

Keep both eyes open when re-reading this book...

The temptress wants to take your money and leave you with little...

Its a financial gamble going about it this way... it worked for me... my old M20C lived outdoors, it’s cover fell off, I bought it... I had it for a decade... 

I wouldn’t want to do it that way a second time... 

Your typical mission hasn’t quite solidified yet... C or F... that is a pretty large gap in pricing... for fuel injection, and extra 20hp, better fuel economy, and extra room for the two in the back... you skipped the E...

A good C vs a mediocre F for the same price? Mediocre is going to cost more over time...

Have you gotten a copy of Jimmy Garrison’s latest price guide for Mooneys? That would be pretty helpful for you.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[rbridges]

eliminating price from the equation, I think you may have a plane that has a higher than average chance of being down for repairs.  It may surprise you in a good way, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  Like Paul said, you want to be flying; not on the phone with your mechanic all the time.

[Rwsavory]

2 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

Wow...They're identical twins!!!!

Post corrected.  1962 and 1963 C models are listed. Either one would be a whole lot better than the one the OP is looking at. 

[Brian E.]

- A- I think any plane that you can have, own and the freedom to go whenever and wherever you want is a temptress.  I just want my temptress to be a Mooney :0  I appreciate the story and analogy.

My routine mission is the greater new England region with occasional jaunts elsewhere.  Likely with my wife and I and my son for the next 1 1/2 years.  (Who doesn't want to go to OSH with the caravan?) Hence to need to fly and not "not on the phone with your mechanic all the time." as a couple of you have said...

I'm scouring everything today...I'll still look at this one Friday, as there is always something to learn and it's only 8 miles from my house.

 

[carusoam]

It probably helps to have two similar planes to consider at the same time.... comparisons between the two to determine which one is better for you...

I selected the local plane, and got a stuck valve within the first 10 hours on departure... the exhaust valve stuck open on departure...

The owner had moved away for work, leaving the plane behind... sold after two years of being idle...

Look for good engine instrumentation.... mine had none. The stuck valve was probably related to high CHTs that are typical on non-engine monitored M20Cs....

Things you want to avoid as a new pilot...

• VFR into IMC 
• Running out of fuel
• Having an expensive plane that doesn’t work

Best regards,

-a-

 

[xcrmckenna]

Yes, they are twins and they're beautiful.  At least, without looking at the logs they show as good and clean all the way.  A parent should be so proud.
Any thoughts on the Pineapple Express?  Cleaner, updated and a classic interior.
 

Hey Brian,
Well you have a leg up on a lot of first time buyers since you came straight to Mooney’s:) Congrats on your PPL!!!! It’s a wonderful thing. Everyone has hit on the key points on the C model of why your shouldn’t buy it if you want a turn key plane. I would be surprised if the 4 cylinder was really at 80psi too.

I would seriously look into the F model. Yeah it’s green but if the paint is in great shape it’s going to do a good job protecting against corrosion. I hate my paint color but it’s in really good shape to change and it’s doing its main job.

The interior, well let’s say you would be a popular man in the red light district. But you could make a few minimal changes like the glare shield and one or two other accent pieces and not notice it. Adding to the point of owning and flying your own airplane it’s really easy to look past things:)

It took me three years to find my J. I looked at a lot of airplanes and did a lot of traveling. I flew to Texas at least three times, Florida once and an upper east coast trip and who knows how many times I drove to California, around Oregon and to Washington looking at planes. I remember the first E model I looked at was in The Dallas Oregon. It was in bad shape but still sold to someone in Florida. I had prebuys done on three planes before I settled on my 201. Granted it’s not how a lot of people buy planes but I stuck to my must haves and wasn’t going to settle for anything less. And I’m blessed, it fits my mission to a T.

If the F model does that I wouldn’t let the color or interior hold you back. The panel has a lot of things going for it. And if it’s a solid plane under the paint it’s hard to go wrong. To me it’s a little over priced but that’s part of buying a plane. I would offer them closer to $40,000 and go from there. Have a pre buy done at a shop of your choosing, but be willing to pay for the transportation of the plane there.

Or if you happen to find one in the Oregon area and want someone to take a look at it I would be happy to.






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[neilpilot]

4 hours ago, Brian E. said:

- Engine has 1360 hrs (2k TBO) but was redone in 90 or 92 (I don't have that log with me)

  -- Compressions are: 74, 76, 74, 80 (2018)

  -- In 2016 compressions were: 76, 70, 74, 70 (same shop) no engine done in between--this is curious to me

As other's have said, that local C is likely not the best candidate. 

Regarding your curiosity on 2016 vs 2018 compressions, in my opinion compression tests are sometimes overblown.  First off, they don't really determine the health of the engine beyond the cylinders.  Even then, you can do a compression test several times the same day and the results can vary.  If a compression is low, just run up the engine and try again.

[Bob_Belville]

Brian, many of us who have been active on this site for a long time and have personal experience with our own vintage planes would give odds that whatever you pay for a 50 year old plane that's been sitting outside in NH for several years and not flown will require at least that much more in the next year, 2 at the most, to get and keep it flying. But... if you have deep pockets and if a good PPI confirms there is no corrosion and the fuel tanks are not leaking yet... it's your call. Even if the engine keeps on chugging, a big if, you're likely to learn about the cost of landing gear pucks, mufflers, starters, vacuum pumps, alternators, prop governors, radios and another score of system components that will decide to die on their new owner. You probably have heard that airplanes are far more likely to rust out than to wear out. 

If you have not done so you should get on Jimmy Garrison's email list. He sends an email to those on that list when he gets in a plane. Buying from a reputable dealer gives you a far better chance of avoiding a money pit. 

[Brian E.]

E-mail sent to @jgarrison requesting the value guide.

Neil--thanks for the feedback on the compressions.

@xcrmckenna -- thanks for your Mooney story--you are a patient man.  And, there's a lot of J's on the market now...

[orionflt]

Brian, 

The value guide will help you price out the value of the aircraft you are looking at, but take time to get familiar with the problem areas of the Mooney. knowing what issues can cost you later will help you determine what plane is worth looking at. and when you find one, make sure you get a prebuy done by a Mooney expert. 

Brian

 

[Brian E.]

I called our local MSC today and they're booked out through April--for even prebuys...

This will be a long road.