A good day ends badly in El Paso

[nfonville]

I thought that was the answer. Very good shop and did work for us as well over the years. I'm a third generation pilot and plane owner from West Texas. EP Aero, Lubbock Aero and NM propeller were places we used when needed. You will be happy in the end I suspect. Unless there has been a major change, they all were always honest and fair.

[LANCECASPER]

15 hours ago, jcovington said:

At this point I am still annoyed with the original prop shop although I don't believe it is anything more than a mistake. They have serviced the prop in the past and have performed well. After discussing the issue with several people I respect, I have decided to leave it at being annoyed and not pursue the matter.

I wasn't comfortable telling El Paso Aero which prop shop to use for the repair as I didn't think that was fair to them. I couldn't get the plane home to use my normal repair shop. It put me between a rock and a hard spot. Had the failure happened here where I could have sent the prop back to the original shop I would have handled it differently. 

Jim

Sometimes parts just fail. If the snap ring had been on since February 2018 think of the number of revolutions the prop made since then. Had it been installed improperly it seems like it would have shown up on the first flight or two.

However if you really feel it was bad work by the original shop, that's the last place I'd take it to. 

[jcovington]

23 hours ago, nfonville said:

I thought that was the answer. Very good shop and did work for us as well over the years. I'm a third generation pilot and plane owner from West Texas. EP Aero, Lubbock Aero and NM propeller were places we used when needed. You will be happy in the end I suspect. Unless there has been a major change, they all were always honest and fair.

Thanks for the back ground information on the shop. Always good to have a shop with a long history.

Jim

[jcovington]

23 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Sometimes parts just fail. If the snap ring had been on since February 2018 think of the number of revolutions the prop made since then. Had it been installed improperly it seems like it would have shown up on the first flight or two.

However if you really feel it was bad work by the original shop, that's the last place I'd take it to. 

I agree. Sometimes things do fail. Sometimes people make mistakes. The prop had 160 hours on it since February 2018 when it was last resealed. I can believe that it could take that long to wear if it was installed incorrectly but I have no idea it if I am right or not.

The shop in Georgia has serviced my prop for a long time. They resealed it in 2008 as part of an engine replacement, 2017 due to a grease leak and 2018 due to a grease leak. The 2018 repair was at no cost due to having worked on the prop in 2017. I suspect that had the failure occurred with the plane here in Alabama I would have given them the opportunity to fix it and they would have made it right. With the plane in El Paso, I am in Alabama and the shop in Georgia the logistics got too complicated to get the prop back here. My choice was to spend more money to save some time and hassles. Maybe not everybody's choice but it was the correct one for us. It does give me the additional benefit of another shop looking at the prop which definitely increases my comfort level at this point.

Jim

[ArtVandelay]

I’m surprised there wasn’t an overhaul done during all those reseals. My prop shop insisted they overhaul mine at over 10years/800 hours...115 million revolutions. They also deemed my governor not worth overhauling because of outdated parts and substituted a different one.


Tom

[bradp]

Overhauls should be performed based on condition or regulation .  There is no imperative to grind blades when they don’t necessarily need to be ground if a proper inspection is performed.  There is noting inherently better about overhauling any aviation part vs IRAN unless you want a cadre or new parts called out in a service manual - even that approach can be done in an IRAN (replace all wear items).  It depends more on the people doing the work and less on the nomenclature. 

[jcovington]

1 minute ago, ArtVandelay said:

I’m surprised there wasn’t an overhaul done during all those reseals. My prop shop insisted they overhaul mine at over 10years/800 hours...115 million revolutions. They also deemed my governor not worth overhauling because of outdated parts and substituted a different one.


Tom

I looked back through the logs after I returned from our trip. The prop was overhauled at 40 hours (1996) after the plane was built. No reason given so I was surprised by that. It was all just annual inspections until 2008 when the engine was replaced and the first reseal completed.

That makes two overhauls and three reseals in the life of the prop (about 2200 hours total service).

Jim

[ArtVandelay]

There is noting inherently better about overhauling any aviation part vs IRAN unless you want a cadre or new parts called out in a service manual - even that approach can be done in an IRAN (replace all wear items).  It depends more on the people doing the work and less on the nomenclature. 

Which brings up the question, is the failing part one of the parts that would be replaced when overhauled?


Tom

[jcovington]

18 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Which brings up the question, is the failing part one of the parts that would be replaced when overhauled?


Tom

I am sure that the snap rings are replaced as part of an overhaul. I wouldn't be surprised that a snap ring is a one time use part. In my case, at least one snap ring is somewhere on or near 26L in El Paso so I know it will be replaced :).

Jim

[Guest]

2 hours ago, bradp said:

Overhauls should be performed based on condition or regulation .  There is no imperative to grind blades when they don’t necessarily need to be ground if a proper inspection is performed.  There is noting inherently better about overhauling any aviation part vs IRAN unless you want a cadre or new parts called out in a service manual - even that approach can be done in an IRAN (replace all wear items).  It depends more on the people doing the work and less on the nomenclature. 

We have 10 year prop overhauls in regulation here in Canada.  Only home builds are exempted.  I could hear the moaning and screaming from here if the FAA imposed a similar regulation in the US.

Clarence

[N201MKTurbo]

15 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

We have 10 year prop overhauls in regulation here in Canada.  Only home builds are exempted.  I could hear the moaning and screaming from here if the FAA imposed a similar regulation in the US.

Clarence

$350 /YEAR in prop reserves! Are you guys nuts?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

$350 /YEAR in prop reserves! Are you guys nuts?

Sorry I can’t hear you over all the complaining!

Clarence

[Marauder]

I take prop health pretty seriously. A friend of mine lost a good portion of a blade on his E. Other than looking for nicks and leaks, I suspect most pilots don’t pay much attention to their prop.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20001212X19629&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=LA


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[drapo]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

$350 /YEAR in prop reserves! Are you guys nuts?

Even worst, that 10 years is shelf life! So if in 2013 you bought an airplane with a prop that was overhauled in 2009,  or you purchased a prop overhauled in 2009, in 2019,, ten years after overhaul, by regulation, you have to overhaul the prop, not only IRAN  

BTW,  time SPOH isn’t taken into account, so if during those 6 years you flew 50h/yr, you pay for a complete overhaul after 300hrs 

[Mark89114]

35 minutes ago, drapo said:

Even worst, that 10 years is shelf life! So if in 2013 you bought an airplane with a prop that was overhauled in 2009,  or you purchased a prop overhauled in 2009, in 2019,, ten years after overhaul, by regulation, you have to overhaul the prop, not only IRAN  

BTW,  time SPOH isn’t taken into account, so if during those 6 years you flew 50h/yr, you pay for a complete overhaul after 300hrs 

Sounds like setting up a situation for maintenance induced failure......

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, drapo said:

Even worst, that 10 years is shelf life! So if in 2013 you bought an airplane with a prop that was overhauled in 2009,  or you purchased a prop overhauled in 2009, in 2019,, ten years after overhaul, by regulation, you have to overhaul the prop, not only IRAN  

BTW,  time SPOH isn’t taken into account, so if during those 6 years you flew 50h/yr, you pay for a complete overhaul after 300hrs 

All that cold northern weather must be hard on props!  

[Danb]

5 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Sorry I can’t hear you over all the complaining!

Clarence

Seems like a good rule.

[yvesg]

COPA (our northern AOPA) has requested exemptions for non commercial operators:

https://copanational.org/en/2018/04/20/prop-exemption-followup/

Perhaps things will align!

Yves

[Guest]

On 1/7/2019 at 6:47 PM, Danb said:

Seems like a good rule.

It seems to work.  Even fixed pitch props require a 5 year corrosion check.  

I think that our national pilots organization is fighting an up hill battle hoping to follow US part 91 rules.  There have been a number of AD’s brought about by lack of maintenance and a number suspensions of US prop shop certificates as a result of poor workmanship.

Clarence 

[Danb]

Clarence preventative maintenance is money well spent.

[larrynimmo]

fyi...my 1981 M20J went 1,700 hours and almost 40 years without a prop overhaul....in its entire life, only one "o" ring was changed...and the prop looked great.

When I installed a Lycoming rebuilt engine in September, I did have the prop rebuilt and it cost $2,500. (no repairs needed)

 

[jcovington]

To close out this thread. The prop shop ended up taking three weeks to overhaul the prop so it arrived back in El Paso on Monday January 28th. I took a commercial flight (shudder) on the 30th to pick up the plane on the 31st. I arrived home on the afternoon of the 31st and the plane is back in the hangar where it belongs. The American flight from Huntsville to El Paso wasn't too bad and it only took slightly longer than if I flew myself. I keep telling my wife that flying on other people's airplanes is no fun, she tells me to quit complaining .

The prop looks brand new after the overhaul. El Paso Aero touched up the spinner so it is hard to tell any damage had been done. 

After @Cody Stallings mentioned in one of his posts that there should be some play in the prop blades I wanted to check mine. As he said you can grip the ends of the blades and move them slightly. I can feel some difference in movement between the two blades but both move a similar amount.

Final tally was about $5.6AMU for the repair. The prop overhaul was about $3.5AMU and the rest was shipping along with shop labor. I ended up with two commercial flights for trips we had scheduled and one long drive back from Tucson in a rental car. It is nice to have the event behind me.

Jim

[jcovington]

On 2/7/2019 at 8:27 AM, jcovington said:

To close out this thread.

Looks like I was wrong about being finished with this thread. I can't tell everyone how sorry I am to reopen this saga.

I took the plane to Joey Cole in Dalton, GA yesterday for the annual inspection. I jokingly told him that if anything was wrong with the prop I didn't want to know about it. Joey called a few minutes ago and told me that the opposite blade that was undamaged in the initial loss of the snap ring is too loose. He says that the tip was moving about an inch when he was doing the compression check on the engine. Videos of the movement are attached.

Joey has called New Mexico Propeller this morning and they are standing behind their work. The prop has about 10 hours since the overhaul and has now failed. Just to recap the prop was resealed in Feb 2017, resealed in Feb 2018, lost a snap ring in December 2018 and has a loose blade in Feb 2019. Joey and New Mexico Propeller agree that something is wrong with the prop and it should be condemned at this point. I can purchase a new prop or New Mexico Propeller is offering to build an exchange prop from parts that they have on hand. I was assured that no parts from my old prop would be used in building the exchange prop. My choice is to accept the exchange prop as that will get us back in the air the fastest.

New Mexico Prop have begun the building of the exchange prop. Joey is boxing up the old prop to send back to New Mexico Prop for a failure analysis. I hope to find out what caused the failure and will let everyone know the outcome.

Jim

[jaylw314]

2 minutes ago, jcovington said:

Looks like I was wrong about being finished with this thread. I can't tell everyone how sorry I am to reopen this saga.

I took the plane to Joey Cole in Dalton, GA yesterday for the annual inspection. I jokingly told him that if anything was wrong with the prop I didn't want to know about it. Joey called a few minutes ago and told me that the opposite blade that was undamaged in the initial loss of the snap ring is too loose. He says that the tip was moving about an inch when he was doing the compression check on the engine. Videos of the movement are attached.

Joey has called New Mexico Propeller this morning and they are standing behind their work. The prop has about 10 hours since the overhaul and has now failed. Just to recap the prop was resealed in Feb 2017, resealed in Feb 2018, lost a snap ring in December 2018 and has a loose blade in Feb 2019. Joey and New Mexico Propeller agree that something is wrong with the prop and it should be condemned at this point. I can purchase a new prop or New Mexico Propeller is offering to build an exchange prop from parts that they have on hand. I was assured that no parts from my old prop would be used in building the exchange prop. My choice is to accept the exchange prop as that will get us back in the air the fastest.

New Mexico Prop have begun the building of the exchange prop. Joey is boxing up the old prop to send back to New Mexico Prop for a failure analysis. I hope to find out what caused the failure and will let everyone know the outcome.

Jim

 

Oh man, I am so sorry  Were they willing to credit you a significant part of the overhaul cost?

[jcovington]

1 minute ago, jaylw314 said:

Oh man, I am so sorry  Were they willing to credit you a significant part of the overhaul cost?

I haven't gotten cost figures yet but I believe that the cost will be the difference between what I paid for the overhaul and the exchange price. Of course, I'll still be out labor and shipping costs.

Jim