AeroVonics AV-20, clocks and minor mods

[M20S Driver]

2 hours ago, Niko182 said:

The AOA performance is shit

AOA performance  is really marginal since it is an estimation and not an actual measurement.  The simplicity of the installation and  price point for a back up  attitude indicator installed where my useless clock occupies convinced me to go for it.  

[Niko182]

On 9/28/2019 at 4:54 PM, M20S Driver said:

AOA performance  is really marginal since it is an estimation and not an actual measurement.  The simplicity of the installation and  price point for a back up  attitude indicator installed where my useless clock occupies convinced me to go for it.  

For the ai, i think its completely worthwhile. But getting it for the intension of the aoa would be a mistake imo.

[SkyTrekker]

Had one installed during my Avidyne install last month.  Bought for backup ai, as I’m doing my instrument rating currently and want a backup. Ai and timers work great. 

[M20S Driver]

The unit is installed and it is great.   The AOA is not really AOA directly measured but I consider it more of a pitch envelope monitor and warning system.  I climbed to 4500 feet and did a few uncoordinated turns and it started to give me alerts.  All of this for $795!!!  Wow..

It was really windy when I tested the unit at KTCY and for those who land there, they are aware of the nasty down draft in short final landing rwy 30.  As soon as I hit the down draft, I could see it on the display jumping a couple of bars. 

I really like the unit and I hate to admit that I trust the AI on this unit more than my Vacuum based primary unit.

[bradp]

For those of us that have angled panels where the OEM clock lives, can the AV-20 be installed and calibrated on an angle? 

[Ragsf15e]

On 10/7/2019 at 11:26 AM, bradp said:

For those of us that have angled panels where the OEM clock lives, can the AV-20 be installed and calibrated on an angle? 

I think @gsxrpilot tried this unsuccessfully.  Not sure if it was only the aoa or also attitude that didn’t work on the angle panel.  He can probably chime in and tell you.

[gsxrpilot]

10 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I think @gsxrpilot tried this unsuccessfully.  Not sure if it was only the aoa or also attitude that didn’t work on the angle panel.  He can probably chime in and tell you.

I put mine on the right side in an existing hole and the angled panel. The thought was that there is already a hole and no change to the panel needed. Also it would be nice to have an AI on the right side in the even the copilot needs to use it.

It really doesn't work there very well. The horizon is always crooked and the ball is useless. 

[philiplane]

I've got about 80 flight hours on the AV20S in my Aztec. Works great. The only issue is a slightly higher than actual TAS reading, and they are working on a software fix for that.

The AoA works fine in my experience. I calibrated it without flaps, and it will show the stall AoA in flight accurately, meaning you get the audio alert before you actually exceed the critical AoA. Upon landing with half or full flaps, you will be in the yellow warning band, and get the red AoA alert if you haul the nose up a bit upon touchdown.

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, philiplane said:

I've got about 80 flight hours on the AV20S in my Aztec. Works great. The only issue is a slightly higher than actual TAS reading, and they are working on a software fix for that.

The AoA works fine in my experience. I calibrated it without flaps, and it will show the stall AoA in flight accurately, meaning you get the audio alert before you actually exceed the critical AoA. Upon landing with half or full flaps, you will be in the yellow warning band, and get the red AoA alert if you haul the nose up a bit upon touchdown.

How does the AoA do in a turn. Mine isn't even close to accurate.

[philiplane]

AoA in turns is perfect. 

Yours will be off if the mounting is not level to the longitudinal axis, and pointed straight ahead. If you have it in a canted panel, it will have errors in the turn like any other AHRS that is not precisely mounted and calibrated to straight and level while on jacks.

[0TreeLemur]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

How does the AoA do in a turn. Mine isn't even close to accurate.

The AV-20S AOA indictor is not even close to accurate in my instance either.  I contacted the manufacturer (Aerovonix) before they were bought by uAvionics, to inquire about why I couldn't calibrate the AOA sensor in our M20C.  I received the following email in italics from Bill Shuert, who was their CEO before the buyout:

Sorry to hear about your issues with the AV-20-S.  The AOA has been challenging to set up in the Mooney.  You can disable the AOA page in the set up menu by cycling down to the AOA line (highlighted) then pushing the right button will disable the page.  You will need to go into the AOA Limits and move the lower limit to its lowest number then do the same with the upper limit--this will ensure you won't get any pop up notices.

 

Thanks again for the feedback. 

 

The AI agrees perfectly with my vacuum AI.   That is really nice.   The TAS indication is not accurate.   Recently I contacted uAvionics about that, and was told that they are looking into it.

I use it for its timer functions primarily.  Knowing that it has a backup AI with a 30-minute battery is just comforting.

 

 

[bradp]

5 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

The AV-20S AOA indictor is not even close to accurate in my instance either.  I contacted the manufacturer (Aerovonix) before they were bought by uAvionics, to inquire about why I couldn't calibrate the AOA sensor in our M20C.  I received the following email in italics from Bill Shuert, who was their CEO before the buyout:

Sorry to hear about your issues with the AV-20-S.  The AOA has been challenging to set up in the Mooney.  You can disable the AOA page in the set up menu by cycling down to the AOA line (highlighted) then pushing the right button will disable the page.  You will need to go into the AOA Limits and move the lower limit to its lowest number then do the same with the upper limit--this will ensure you won't get any pop up notices.

 

Thanks again for the feedback. 

 

The AI agrees perfectly with my vacuum AI.   That is really nice.   The TAS indication is not accurate.   Recently I contacted uAvionics about that, and was told that they are looking into it.

I use it for its timer functions primarily.  Knowing that it has a backup AI with a 30-minute battery is just comforting.

 

 

Nice clean panel 

[0TreeLemur]

On 10/7/2019 at 1:26 PM, bradp said:

For those of us that have angled panels where the OEM clock lives, can the AV-20 be installed and calibrated on an angle? 

When you switch it on, it goes through an internal calibration using 1g orientation to know where it is relative to the vertical before you move.   That takes less than about 1 minute.  This way it compensates for the panel angle.

[bradp]

That’s good to know.  Some of us have a little flange that is vertical to the horizon but angled back toward the pilot Where the clock lives. It would put the yaw axis off by about 20-degrees.  Most MEMS don’t like that. 

[LANCECASPER]

On 12/28/2018 at 11:19 AM, gsxrpilot said:

I'd still like to know what the original clock was in my 252.

[laytonl]

On 9/28/2019 at 5:08 PM, M20S Driver said:

Has anyone installed an AV20S recently?  I am considering installing one and I was wondering about the installation cost as well as its AOA performance.

M20S Driver

I installed one in my Citabria.  It was an easy install and only took a couple of hours or so.  I paid my mechanic $75 to inspect and sign off.  The unit works fine.  The AOA seems to be accurate, though I don’t think it adds much value in the Citabria.  I will probably put one in my Mooney for another backup AI.  The AI is excellent, it reacts quickly and accurately to extreme attitudes.  Lee

[cliffy]

In a crowded Mooney Panel I have seen a Casio wristwatch (old school display not digital) glued to the panel (about 1 1/2 inches in diameter) with the wrist band "legs" filed off to give a round presentation. This was the only clock on the panel. 

Standing by for the incoming  :-)

If the "correct" clock has to be mounted on the panel how does the clock in the control wheel comply?   :-)

Looks like we are in another circular firing squad again, I don't think a clock (something has to be there) would ever be a "primary" cause of a violation, only added on charges to an idiot pilot. I can see it being a "fix it" note with a follow up if it was ever looked at. 

[Bob - S50]

I talked to the local FSDO at the aviation trade show in February.  Here's how the (paraphrased) conversation went:

Me:  I have a Mooney and I know that the clock which is required for IFR has to display time to the second.   And I know from decisions that it must be panel mounted, it cannot be a watch or tablet.  I also know from decisions that the device showing the time can have more than one function.  That is, it can be more than just a clock as long as it displays the time.

Him: Correct.

Me:  Does the clock have to be TSO'd?

Him:  No.

Me:  So if I want to install a device that includes a clock that isn't TSO'd, I just need to make sure it doesn't interfere with any other instruments in the plane.  And if that device is approved under NORSEE, that's already been proven.  So can I install a multi-function device that has been approved under NORSEE as my required clock?

Him:  Yes, as long as it continuously displays the time.

I also talked to the UAvionix rep at the show.  They are working at getting formal approval under the same ruling about the Davtron GT-50 being suitable as a minor modification.  Here is a link to the GT-50 approval:

GT-50

Kind of interesting though that the GT-50 pictures I've found do not show seconds.

Take all that as you like, but as for me, I'm taking that to mean I can install an AV20S as my clock.

[Ragsf15e]

Him:  Yes, as long as it continuously displays the time.

 

Splitting hairs, and not looking to get shot, but the AV-20s doesn’t continuously display time.  Only when you’re on the “time page”, but not ADI page.  No?

[Bob - S50]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

Him:  Yes, as long as it continuously displays the time.

 

Splitting hairs, and not looking to get shot, but the AV-20s doesn’t continuously display time.  Only when you’re on the “time page”, but not ADI page.  No?

Ya, I thought about that too.  But even the GT-50 only displays time when on the time page.  Even our current TSO'd Davtron can display EITHER a timer or the time of day.  If they ever want to look at my plane I can live with leaving it on the first page.  I don't know that I'll ever need a timer anyway.  And if I get down to the point where I NEED the AI, I can always use emergency authority.

In reality?  If I'm VMC I'll probably leave it on the clock page anyway.  If I'm IFR on the ground I'll probably leave it on the clock page to confirm I've met my release time.  If I'm IMC, I'll probably put it on the AI page.  After I land, I might go to the flight & engine timer page to see what to put in my logbook.

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Him:  Yes, as long as it continuously displays the time.

 

Splitting hairs, and not looking to get shot, but the AV-20s doesn’t continuously display time.  Only when you’re on the “time page”, but not ADI page.  No?

Of course it does. When it's set to display time, it "continuously displays time"

[Ragsf15e]

I agree with both of those interpretations/plans!

[takair]

My standby AI tumbled today just as I was dropping into a layer on an approach to stay current.  Not ready to invest in a full panel.  Now considering the AV-20s, the Dynon D3, or maybe wait for the AV30.  While I would love the GI275, not ready to invest.  

The AV-20s is appealing for the price and features.  For those who have been using it, is the AI truly adequate partial panel?  I notice it does not have a lubber line for roll angle, and it’s on the small side.

D3 is enticing for its synthetic vision and price.  This is why I find the GI275 attractive.  However, the D3 does not have some of the air date features that the AV-20S has.  Thoughts on this?  Also, it is still technically a portable, but fits over the hole vacated by my electric standby.

Was. thinking of waiting for the AV30, but not sure I would really see one in July.  If it had synthetic vision I would certainly wait, but I don’t see any indication of that being on the immediate roadmap.

For those who have flown these as IFR backup AI, what are your thoughts?
 

[MoonFlyer68]

4 minutes ago, takair said:

My standby AI tumbled today just as I was dropping into a layer on an approach to stay current.  Not ready to invest in a full panel.  Now considering the AV-20s, the Dynon D3, or maybe wait for the AV30.  While I would love the GI275, not ready to invest.  

The AV-20s is appealing for the price and features.  For those who have been using it, is the AI truly adequate partial panel?  I notice it does not have a lubber line for roll angle, and it’s on the small side.

D3 is enticing for its synthetic vision and price.  This is why I find the GI275 attractive.  However, the D3 does not have some of the air date features that the AV-20S has.  Thoughts on this?  Also, it is still technically a portable, but fits over the hole vacated by my electric standby.

Was. thinking of waiting for the AV30, but not sure I would really see one in July.  If it had synthetic vision I would certainly wait, but I don’t see any indication of that being on the immediate roadmap.

For those who have flown these as IFR backup AI, what are your thoughts?
 

What I am about to say is strictly rumor so take it with a grain of salt.  I am not certain where I saw it but someone was talking about a new standby AI that was in testing from Dynon.  Someone actually saying they were part of the testing.  Honestly that is all I know and have no details about anything.  If someone knows what I am talking about perhaps they can speak up.  I am hopeful that it is true because the D-10A is getting pretty old and when I finally upgrade to the Dynon HDX system it would be great to have a modern backup AI.

[M20S Driver]

 

40 minutes ago, takair said:

My standby AI tumbled today just as I was dropping into a layer on an approach to stay current.  Not ready to invest in a full panel.  Now considering the AV-20s, the Dynon D3, or maybe wait for the AV30.  While I would love the GI275, not ready to invest.  

The AV-20s is appealing for the price and features.  For those who have been using it, is the AI truly adequate partial panel?  I notice it does not have a lubber line for roll angle, and it’s on the small side.

D3 is enticing for its synthetic vision and price.  This is why I find the GI275 attractive.  However, the D3 does not have some of the air date features that the AV-20S has.  Thoughts on this?  Also, it is still technically a portable, but fits over the hole vacated by my electric standby.

Was. thinking of waiting for the AV30, but not sure I would really see one in July.  If it had synthetic vision I would certainly wait, but I don’t see any indication of that being on the immediate roadmap.

For those who have flown these as IFR backup AI, what are your thoughts?
 

I have AV20-S and used it as primary under the hood with a safety pilot in the right seat.  It worked fine but if this was a real IFR situation, I would have landed at the nearest airport