My PMA 450A died

[NJMac]

 

A safety pilot and I were out yesterday trying to get some Hood time and were doing the VOR - Alpha approach into India 17 communicated with ATC that we are cleared for the approach and few seconds later realize the intercom was not functioning. We checked the breakers and nothing was tripped. Since we were on a discrete code already with ATC, Squawked 7700 (should have used 7600) for a moment then cycled the avionics master. All the other avionics came back but the audio panel will still dead. So we decided to terminate the approach and checked the com one in and out with a handheld and found that it still worked. We flew up another 10 minutes to Charlie Quebec Alpha where it was installed installer was there and checked that it indeed was dead. Strange turn of events but hopefully the warranty plays nicely.

 

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Edited October 15, 2018 by NJMac

[StevenL757]

PMA Engineering is a wonderful company.  Their products are second to none, and this is actually a rare event knowing one failed...especially a newer 450A.  I’m curious to know what caused the failure...whether something in the aircraft or in the audio panel itself.  Either way, PMA will take good care of you.  Good luck...let us know what you find.

Steve

[carusoam]

We have a PS guy around here...

Might want to share the details with them.

@Marauder probably recalls his screen name...

https://mooneyspace.com/search/?&q=Psengineering&search_and_or=or

I’m looking...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[StevenL757]

Calling @Mscheuer.  Mark can most certainly steer you in the right direction.  ;-)

[flight2000]

Did the fail safe mode fail as well?  If wired correctly, you should still have had communication through com 1.  No intercom, but the pilot should still be able to talk through the radio.    I've tried this on the ground (shut my unit off) and called the airport UNICOM with a comms check.  All was good.

From the owners manual:

In the off or "EMG" position, the pilot headset is connected directly to Com 1 as well as unswitched input #1. This allows communication capability regardless of unit condition. Any time power is removed or turned off, the audio selector will revert to fail safe mode.

Will be interested to hear what happened.

Cheers,

Brian

[StevenL757]

Good suggestion...forgot about that feature.

[NJMac]

Great point. The failsafe still worked we found when we checked with the handheld at i17. Neat feature and glad that part worked. Also really odd, the outer marker was lit most of the way from i17 to CQA. Oh well, it didn't ruin the afternoon. Still enjoyed some time in the sky

Did the fail safe mode fail as well?  If wired correctly, you should still have had communication through com 1.  No intercom, but the pilot should still be able to talk through the radio.    I've tried this on the ground (shut my unit off) and called the airport UNICOM with a comms check.  All was good.
From the owners manual:
In the off or "EMG" position, the pilot headset is connected directly to Com 1 as well as unswitched input #1. This allows communication capability regardless of unit condition. Any time power is removed or turned off, the audio selector will revert to fail safe mode.
Will be interested to hear what happened.
Cheers,
Brian

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[Piloto]

That is what I like about the KMA 24 is all switches, it always works. 36 years old and never failed.

José

[steingar]

Anyone can have a bad day.  So long as they honor their warranty it should all be good.

[NJMac]

New one is headed to avionics installer, due in Wednesday. Impressive service so far.

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Edited October 15, 2018 by NJMac

[EricJ]

9 hours ago, Piloto said:

That is what I like about the KMA 24 is all switches, it always works. 36 years old and never failed.

José

I had a KMA 20 that was even simpler and was a piece of crap and caused all kinds of problems.   I replaced it with another off of ebay that was a lot better but still caused problems.   I replaced that with a PMA450B and now everything works wonderfully.

Old, simple crap is still crap.

[Andy95W]

On 10/15/2018 at 7:06 PM, EricJ said:

I had a KMA 20 that was even simpler and was a piece of crap and caused all kinds of problems.   I replaced it with another off of ebay that was a lot better but still caused problems.   I replaced that with a PMA450B and now everything works wonderfully.

Old, simple crap is still crap.

Just because you had trouble with your old KMA-20 doesn't mean that the KMA-24 is crap.  I'd say there was a pretty good chance you had wiring or tray issues that were resolved when you got the new audio panel installed.

And old and simple doesn't always imply crap- if it did, all of our Mooneys that are more than 40 years old would be crap with their tractor magnetos, air cooling, and tubular steel structure.  Or maybe you meant that all of our Mooneys are crap, since that statement applies to all of them, including your fairly old 201.

I've no doubt the PMA450B is a fine piece of equipment.  Mine is also effective and reliable and cost half the price.  But I won't denigrate your avionics purchase just because it doesn't appeal to me.

[EricJ]

30 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Just because you had trouble with your old KMA-20 doesn't mean that the KMA-24 is crap.  I'd say there was a pretty good chance you had wiring or tray issues that were resolved when you got the new audio panel installed.

And old and simple doesn't always imply crap- if it did, all of our Mooneys that are more than 40 years old would be crap with their tractor magnetos, air cooling, and tubular steel structure.  Or maybe you meant that all of our Mooneys are crap, since that statement applies to all of them, including your fairly old 201.

I've no doubt the PMA450B is a fine piece of equipment.  Mine is also effective and reliable and cost half the price.  But I won't denigrate your avionics purchase just because it doesn't appeal to me.

Crap is crap whether it's new or old or right side up or upside down.   I was responding to the notion that just because something is older and "simpler" and a particular example has been good, that it must be better.
 

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by EricJ

[jetdriven]

The only thing I’ve found that’s older, simpler, and better all three, is the Kx170B and Bendix 1200 series magnetos. 

And anything with a radial engine and a tail wheel

Edited October 18, 2018 by jetdriven

[Marauder]

Just because you had trouble with your old KMA-20 doesn't mean that the KMA-24 is crap.  I'd say there was a pretty good chance you had wiring or tray issues that were resolved when you got the new audio panel installed.
And old and simple doesn't always imply crap- if it did, all of our Mooneys that are more than 40 years old would be crap with their tractor magnetos, air cooling, and tubular steel structure.  Or maybe you meant that all of our Mooneys are crap, since that statement applies to all of them, including your fairly old 201.
I've no doubt the PMA450B is a fine piece of equipment.  Mine is also effective and reliable and cost half the price.  But I won't denigrate your avionics purchase just because it doesn't appeal to me.

I flew for years with a KMA-20. Simple, reliable and pretty boring.

[Mscheuer]

Dear MJMak

Holy smokes, I just found this thread. Fortunately our warranty exchange program is on autopilot.

Now the question is, how is replacement unit working?

Sorry for the hassle.

Mark

 

[Baker Avionics]

8 minutes ago, Mscheuer said:

Dear MJMak

Holy smokes, I just found this thread. Fortunately our warranty exchange program is on autopilot.

Now the question is, how is replacement unit working?

Sorry for the hassle.

Mark

 

Mark, glad to see you here checking this out!  We need to catch up!!!  Lets talk soon!!!

[NJMac]

Mark no worries man. I havnt had a chance to fly up to avionics shop yet. Did almost 70 hrs this week at work so far. Have a 9am appointment Monday. Need some plane therapy after this week.

Dear MJMak
Holy smokes, I just found this thread. Fortunately our warranty exchange program is on autopilot.
Now the question is, how is replacement unit working?
Sorry for the hassle.
Mark
 

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[Mscheuer]

40 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Mark no worries man. I havnt had a chance to fly up to avionics shop yet. Did almost 70 hrs this week at work so far. Have a 9am appointment Monday. Need some plane therapy after this week.

 

 

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And I thought I worked a lot of hours!

I can safely say that it is extremely unlikely that you will ever have another problem from your audio panel. The probabilities of having two bad experiences with any of our audio panels is next to zero. I don't want to come across boastful, but rather, confident from the data that our repair station gives me. In fact, I'm very proud to see our repairman (1) working on production rather than repairs. There are 5 shelves labeled Monday, Tuesday...Friday, it is not unusual at all to see all 5 empty. 

The fact that we have been producing intercoms and audio panels for 33 years and knowing the number of units that are out in the field makes me so proud what this little company can do. Maytag definitely had the right idea. (So did Hewlett Packard, you design in quality)

But when there is a problem, that's when you find out just how good (or bad) the company is.

Thanks for being our customer.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Mscheuer

[NJMac]

On 10/19/2018 at 12:55 PM, Mscheuer said:

And I thought I worked a lot of hours!

I can safely say that it is extremely unlikely that you will ever have another problem from your audio panel. The probabilities of having two bad experiences with any of our audio panels is next to zero. I don't want to come across boastful, but rather, confident from the data that our repair station gives me. In fact, I'm very proud to see our repairman (1) working on production rather than repairs. There are 5 shelves labeled Monday, Tuesday...Friday, it is not unusual at all to see all 5 empty. 

 The fact that we have been producing intercoms and audio panels for 33 years and knowing the number of units that are out in the field makes me so proud what this little company can do. Maytag definitely had the right idea. (So did Hewlett Packard, you design in quality)

But when there is a problem, that's when you find out just how good (or bad) the company is.

Thanks for being our customer.

New one is in.  Works great.  Glad to have such a great piece back in the plane.  It does take some absences to make the heart fonder.  Thanks for taking care of me.  Josh was going to ask for feedback once you get the damaged one back.  I'd love to know what happened just 60 hrs into its short life. 

[Mscheuer]

We reached out yesterday to your avionics shop, they are sending it back to us today. My guys are going to notify me the moment it arrives. I’m as interested in the failure as anyone. I’ll report here as soon as I find out what happened. 

Glad you are up and running.

sincerely,

Mark

[Mscheuer]

NJMac, we received your unit in today and our bench tech emailed this to me:

“Mark, this unit came in today and I can find nothing wrong. Powers up, all functions check out, all grounds intact. Not sure where the problem was but I will let it cook for awhile.”

 So not sure what happened but as you can read, we are going to bake it for a while.

It “might” have been a seating issue, we will learn more after the Tenny Chamber.

sincerely

Mark

(remote at AOPA Gulf Shores fly-in)

 

[NJMac]

NJMac, we received your unit in today and our bench tech emailed this to me:

“Mark, this unit came in today and I can find nothing wrong. Powers up, all functions check out, all grounds intact. Not sure where the problem was but I will let it cook for awhile.”

 So not sure what happened but as you can read, we are going to bake it for a while.

It “might” have been a seating issue, we will learn more after the Tenny Chamber.

sincerely

Mark

(remote at AOPA Gulf Shores fly-in)

 

That is so weird. Like you said, your units don't die but man alive I swear to you we had nothing

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[ArtVandelay]

I would replace your circuit breaker.

[Baker Avionics]

17 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

I would replace your circuit breaker.

Not yet.  Be sure to check power and ground first before anything else.  Let's not replace things, just to be safe or to rule out.  If power and ground are present, then , as Mark said, it could be a seating issue.