Ovation recog light replacment alternatives

[Warren]

On 11/2/2020 at 10:01 AM, bmcconnaha said:

Yeah me too.  I’ve read through this thread over and over trying to figure out how to do this and which setup is the brightest.  Perhaps I am overthinking it.  
 If someone could list parts they used, (24v) I would appreciate it.  Questions I have are:

maglight reflectors, how did you get them to mount in the rectangular hole? I see PJ just squared them off and painted them.  I thought they may be undersized for that, but I must be wrong..

what part number for the AMP connectors that make these “plug and play”

 

Here is the connector.  I think I ordered from Newark.

I used the LR11 modules and put an inline voltage regulator to lower the voltage to approx. 10V to keep the heat down.  My system is 12V but I think the regulator should work for 24V, or you could buy a specific regulator for 24V.  I think the regulator was about $5.

[N56394]

First I want to say a big thank you for ALL of the hard work that everyone is putting into this recog issue. One of my lights burned out so I was looking for replacements. The best I could find was the bulb that Whelen sells for over $200 each! https://flywat.com/products/7030300 - ugh! not even LED...

I have an 83J Missile 12V and looked through this thread and others and wanted the simplest way to do an LED setup. After spending a few hours on the internet looking for anything that might fit, I chose the Crazed Pilot Bullet LEDs. I will post pictures soon if I am happy with the overall results of install, brightness, etc. Initial test in dark hangar seem to show the LED is bright enough. It is a pure white light compared to the yellow white of the halogen bulb.

I put out some tools and parts and some basic instructions for the hangar elves and let them go to work...

Tools required: screw driver, wire cutter, brad setter (or nail), hacksaw, wrench, wire crimps.

Parts required: Crazed pilot Bullet LEDs, washers for back of reflectors, wire connectors, zip ties. ~$20

Time per side: About 30 mins. (took about an hour total trying various ways to attach the LED then went with existing reflector.)

The easiest way to install the Bullet LED is to mount it into the existing reflector. Remove clear fairing and screws that attach the light bracket to gain access to the reflector bulb. (I recalled that the NAV light lens is glass and was careful not to drop it!) Remove the existing bulb/reflector from the square mounting hole. Cut off the wires (wire cutters) flush with the back of the square part of the bulb/reflector. Drive down the bulb pins into the reflector (brad setter) and then pull out the bulb from the front of the reflector. Cut off about half of the square part of the reflector (hacksaw). The Bullet LED fits nicely in the reflector using a washer on the square back side. Test the existing wires for polarity and connect the wires, zip tie excess wire and reinstall the bracket and fairing. 

I will update with photos soon, it was blowing and rainy last night so I did not pull the plane out for light tests...

Thank you again and Cheers!

[carusoam]

Great details, N56!

Thanks for sharing them...

Best regards,

-a-

[N56394]

Daylight photos - the original light diffuses bigger into the reflector better than the LED. It is hard to see much difference in brightness. You can still see the LED light well. I will post night photos as soon. No comments on all my 30 year 'stuff' collection in the hangar please!

[N56394]

Oh here is close up of the LED in the reflector!

[N56394]

Okay finally dry night here in Seattle area so I pulled plane out and took some picts - I can see the LED looks to be a bit dimmer than the halogen now. As a comparison, I also turned on the NAVs which look to be similar brightness. This is an interesting project for sure. Lots of options to solve the LED upgrade, but none universal or turnkey I am afraid. I did order a new projector bulb for $9 and will experiment with cutting it down to fit. For now the Bullet LED does seem to do the trick though and is an easy mod.

[Airways]

Hmmm...I would have thought the LED’d be brighter 

[N56394]

I am trying an LED replacement for my interior lights that are in the overhead - I have the dim and bright switch (7.5v/12v) dunno how the LED will work out yet at the lower voltage...and these LED bulbs may work out for the recog too - not sure yet - I will compare and post if better. I do think it is possible to go too bright with the recogs though - I don't know if the debate about drowning out the nav lights has happened...I would imagine there is a strong case for more light being better, but it would be safe to match the 25w halogen OEM bulb output. There was quite the discussion on light intensity - I don't want to do a science project on this  - I think the Bullet LED is pretty close to the halogen and am interested in any suggestions to take more pictures - maybe from a longer distance - or a short video cycling through the various lights... I think opinions of actual observations would be best as it is hard to photograph this level of light... I may send out an invite to the neighbors to have a viewing party and then discuss with adult beverages... and 6 feet apart of course, ugh!

[ZuluZulu]

11 hours ago, N56394 said:

I am trying an LED replacement for my interior lights that are in the overhead - I have the dim and bright switch (7.5v/12v) dunno how the LED will work out yet at the lower voltage...and these LED bulbs may work out for the recog too - not sure yet - I will compare and post if better. [snip]

I just replaced my overhead interior lights with LEDs from Aero-Lites.  Red up front, warm white for the backseats.  They only work on the bright switch now, but I think if you leave an incandescent bulb in, the dim setting should work.  It's a lot more pleasant than a red headlamp!

[carusoam]

Interesting point regarding drowning out the nav lights...

I believe some recog lights may have gone with the wig wag set up...

It’s possible that the recog lights should be red and green...  

PP discussion point only, I have the old lens heaters still... can’t leave them on to make a comparison...

It’s possible the recog drown out the nav lights since they are so close together...

Best regards,

-a-

[bmcconnaha]

2 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

I just replaced my overhead interior lights with LEDs from Aero-Lites.  Red up front, warm white for the backseats.  They only work on the bright switch now, but I think if you leave an incandescent bulb in, the dim setting should work.  It's a lot more pleasant than a red headlamp!

I was just about to order some lights for the headlinder spots from there.  Why do they only work on bright now? I thought they were dimable.  Looking at the 28v ones tho, might be different 

[N56394]

According to the Aerolites specs the low voltage cutout is 8v or 16.5v on those bulbs. So at least my 12v dim setting of 7.5v would not work. I bought a pack of 20 bulbs from another source that are different design - we'll see if they work at the low setting. I think it is a great idea for the red lights though... maybe I will install some red bulbs in the forward overhead that will work on the dim setting - red only on dim, red and white on bright... I had a followup thought - the 7.5v dim setting is when my engine is not running... so when engine is running the voltage bumps up to like 13.6+ volts... this may just be enough to bring the dim setting over 8v low voltage cutoff... its worth a try.

Edited November 8, 2020 by N56394
added a second thought on voltage

[N56394]

10 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

I just replaced my overhead interior lights with LEDs from Aero-Lites.  Red up front, warm white for the backseats.  They only work on the bright switch now, but I think if you leave an incandescent bulb in, the dim setting should work.  It's a lot more pleasant than a red headlamp!

Looks like that is not IDAHO !  cheers

[bmcconnaha]

37 minutes ago, N56394 said:

Looks like that is not IDAHO !  cheers

I wish I wasn’t in Idaho this morning.... it’s snowing 

what other brand of LEDs did you try? 

[N56394]

22 minutes ago, bmcconnaha said:

I wish I wasn’t in Idaho this morning.... it’s snowing 

what other brand of LEDs did you try? 

We have a sunny day in western WA today - should be coming your way soon!

I have not tried any yet... I have a pack of 20 - of these coming later today - maybe will try for recog light also... will have extras as I will only need like 8 to 10 max.

SPECIFICATION:

1.Voltage: DC 12V

2.Number of Bulbs: 20 PCS

3.LED Color: white (6500K)

4.LED Type: 5050 chips SMD

5.Cross Reference: BA9S T11 T4W 53 57 182 257 363 430 615 756 1445 1155 1815 1816 1819 1895 1889 1891 1892 1893 1895 6253 12814 12929 17053 182 1889 1895A 216 293 430 3886X 3893 6253 64111 64113 64115 233 257 12814 12929 (For Reference Only)

6.Application: Interior Light,such as Dome Light,Map light , License light, Corner light, Reading light,etc..

[r0ckst4r]

On 11/7/2020 at 1:40 PM, N56394 said:

I am trying an LED replacement for my interior lights that are in the overhead - I have the dim and bright switch (7.5v/12v) dunno how the LED will work out yet at the lower voltage...and these LED bulbs may work out for the recog too - not sure yet - I will compare and post if better. I do think it is possible to go too bright with the recogs though - I don't know if the debate about drowning out the nav lights has happened...I would imagine there is a strong case for more light being better, but it would be safe to match the 25w halogen OEM bulb output. There was quite the discussion on light intensity - I don't want to do a science project on this  - I think the Bullet LED is pretty close to the halogen and am interested in any suggestions to take more pictures - maybe from a longer distance - or a short video cycling through the various lights... I think opinions of actual observations would be best as it is hard to photograph this level of light... I may send out an invite to the neighbors to have a viewing party and then discuss with adult beverages... and 6 feet apart of course, ugh!

 

I also went the bullet LED route and it was easy and works great.  I was missing the stupid metal clip that held my old lights in and they were literally RTV'd in place.  So I was glad to get rid of that crap and the new lights mounted easily by design.  And as for the brightness, I think you are on to something with having overly bright recog lights that can obscure the nav lights.  It has been mentioned, either earlier in this thread, or in other threads, if you want bright lights so people can see you there is nothing better than LED landing and taxi lights that you can leave on.  If you have that, these recognition lights are essentially obsolete and are just cosmetic at this point.  So it goes to follow that just matching the brightness of the factory light should be the goal.

 

BTW.  I do love the idea of having the lights red/green to match the nav lights but I think my hangar elves have pushed the boundaries far enough lol.  Something like that would most certainly draw some unwanted attention at next annual.

[N56394]

21 hours ago, N56394 said:

We have a sunny day in western WA today - should be coming your way soon!

I have not tried any yet... I have a pack of 20 - of these coming later today - maybe will try for recog light also... will have extras as I will only need like 8 to 10 max.

SPECIFICATION:

1.Voltage: DC 12V

2.Number of Bulbs: 20 PCS

3.LED Color: white (6500K)

4.LED Type: 5050 chips SMD

5.Cross Reference: BA9S T11 T4W 53 57 182 257 363 430 615 756 1445 1155 1815 1816 1819 1895 1889 1891 1892 1893 1895 6253 12814 12929 17053 182 1889 1895A 216 293 430 3886X 3893 6253 64111 64113 64115 233 257 12814 12929 (For Reference Only)

6.Application: Interior Light,such as Dome Light,Map light , License light, Corner light, Reading light,etc..

These bulbs arrived last night and I had my son pop em in to the overheads. They work on the 7.5v dim setting, but when switched to bright there is no perceivable difference in output. the output appears to be comparable to the 1816 oem bulb. These won't be bright enough for the recog - I think the 1816 is like a 4w and the ERR projector is a 25w halogen. 

[N56394]

15 hours ago, r0ckst4r said:

 

I also went the bullet LED route and it was easy and works great.  I was missing the stupid metal clip that held my old lights in and they were literally RTV'd in place.  So I was glad to get rid of that crap and the new lights mounted easily by design.  And as for the brightness, I think you are on to something with having overly bright recog lights that can obscure the nav lights.  It has been mentioned, either earlier in this thread, or in other threads, if you want bright lights so people can see you there is nothing better than LED landing and taxi lights that you can leave on.  If you have that, these recognition lights are essentially obsolete and are just cosmetic at this point.  So it goes to follow that just matching the brightness of the factory light should be the goal.

 

BTW.  I do love the idea of having the lights red/green to match the nav lights but I think my hangar elves have pushed the boundaries far enough lol.  Something like that would most certainly draw some unwanted attention at next annual.

Right! I spent a lot of time on this site looking at rectangular recon strobe packs... but most are multicolored and I do not want my Mooney to look like a police vehicle - after all, I am not that far from Seattle!

 https://www.extremetacticaldynamics.com/grille-and-surface-mount-led-lights/

[ZuluZulu]

On 11/8/2020 at 12:48 AM, bmcconnaha said:

I was just about to order some lights for the headlinder spots from there.  Why do they only work on bright now? I thought they were dimable.  Looking at the 28v ones tho, might be different 

I'm not an electrical engineer but my rudimentary, Google-informed understanding is that LEDs don't respond to dimmers the same way because they already use such little power.  Leaving an incandescent in the stream lets the dimmable LEDs recognize the lower power.  I can't find the article where I read this though, so maybe an actual electrical engineer will come along and clean up my mess.

[larryb]

On 11/9/2020 at 9:11 AM, ZuluZulu said:

I'm not an electrical engineer but my rudimentary, Google-informed understanding is that LEDs don't respond to dimmers the same way because they already use such little power.  Leaving an incandescent in the stream lets the dimmable LEDs recognize the lower power.  I can't find the article where I read this though, so maybe an actual electrical engineer will come along and clean up my mess.

The answer is, it depends. There are different technologies in bulbs and in dimmers.

 

In the case of the Mooney, they use a very simple dropping resistor. The amount of voltage dropped by the resistor depends on the current through it. Since the LED's draw much less current than incandescent, the voltage drop is proportionally less as well. So your dropping resistor that may have dropped 50% with an incandescent bulb will drop only around 5% with an LED bulb. Ohms law: V(voltage) = I(current) * R(resistance)

 

If they used a PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) dimmer design then the led and incandescent would behave similarly. Different technology, different result.

 

Larry

[ZuluZulu]

5 hours ago, larryb said:

The answer is, it depends. There are different technologies in bulbs and in dimmers.

 

In the case of the Mooney, they use a very simple dropping resistor. The amount of voltage dropped by the resistor depends on the current through it. Since the LED's draw much less current than incandescent, the voltage drop is proportionally less as well. So your dropping resistor that may have dropped 50% with an incandescent bulb will drop only around 5% with an LED bulb. Ohms law: V(voltage) = I(current) * R(resistance)

 

If they used a PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) dimmer design then the led and incandescent would behave similarly. Different technology, different result.

 

Larry

What would it theoretically take to modify the system into a more LED bulb-friendly dimmer?

[carusoam]

8 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

What would it theoretically take to modify the system into a more LED bulb-friendly dimmer?

See the type of dimmer mentioned by Larry... the PWM is the dimmer for LEDs...

If going all LEDs... get this type of dimmer...

If staying with some incandescent bulbs In the line... the LEDs typically dim along...

PP thoughts only, stand by for Larry to return...

Best regards,

-a-

[larryb]

If you want the dimmer to work in the Mooney with LEDs the easiest method would be to increase the dropping resistor value. This would require experimentation to get the right value. In my encore these resistors are behind the pilot side wall. If you want a continuously variable dimming then it would be PWM. but PWM could cause electrical noise so the solution would need a lot of testing.