GFC500 Update

[donkaye]

5 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

What did that include?  Did it include the pair of G5’s?

Not 201Mooniac, but flew with him last week to compare his autopilot operation to mine.  His J Model installation works better than my M Model installation.   He has a G500 TXi so the new installation included the G5, GAD 29 or GAD 29B (not sure which one) and the 4 Servo GFC 500 installation.  He was credited with his old S-Tech autopilot trade-in.

Edited: Should have waited for 201Mooniac to respond, as he did below:  G5 not included.

[201Mooniac]

5 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

What did that include?  Did it include the pair of G5’s?

No, just the AP, it did include all 4 servos including pitch trim and yaw damper.

[201Mooniac]

48 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Not 201Mooniac, but flew with him last week to compare his autopilot operation to mine.  His J Model installation works better than my M Model installation.   He has a G500 TXi so the new installation included the G5, GAD 29 or GAD 29B (not sure which one) and the 4 Servo GFC 500 installation.  He was credited with his old S-Tech autopilot trade-in.

Don is mostly correct but I already had the G5 as a backup to my TXi.  I have the GAD-29, no need for the B.

[aviatoreb]

I like very much the gfc500 but - it would be nice to allow us a staged buy in instead of as it is all at once or forget it.

Overhauled my HSI summer before last and my KI256 this spring - before it was clear what would be the best way forward.  So it would be nice if at the time of the KI256 overhaul I would have gone G5 if it could work with my AP.  A small investment.  Then when my HSI goes - again G5.  Then with two G5's when

something else goes - GFC500.

This year I have two boys in college and a 3rd next year.  A complete panel all this year is harder to stomach at this moment than allowing a staged entry to their product line.

[donkaye]

28 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I like very much the gfc500 but - it would be nice to allow us a staged buy in instead of as it is all at once or forget it.

Overhauled my HSI summer before last and my KI256 this spring - before it was clear what would be the best way forward.  So it would be nice if at the time of the KI256 overhaul I would have gone G5 if it could work with my AP.  A small investment.  Then when my HSI goes - again G5.  Then with two G5's when

something else goes - GFC500.

This year I have two boys in college and a 3rd next year.  A complete panel all this year is harder to stomach at this moment than allowing a staged entry to their product line.

How would you have a staged entry into an autopilot?  Depending on what you have (I assume either the KFC 200 or KFC 150) you could sell it including the servos, KI 256 and, HSI for 6-7K, and get a pretty good discount on the GFC 500.

[aviatoreb]

17 minutes ago, donkaye said:

How would you have a staged entry into an autopilot?  Depending on what you have (I assume either the KFC 200 or KFC 150) you could sell it including the servos, KI 256 and, HSI for 6-7K, and get a pretty good discount on the GFC 500.

As I said - buy the G5 one at a time over a year or two as needed and then rest of the A/P all at once when the itch tickles my wallet or some other component goes.  I would easily drop 5k this year on a G5, 5k more next year.  Etc.

But I am not in for the full GFC500 incl displays approaching 30k this year.  So all in it might be a superb system - it is - I want - but its not happening this year.  And I am pointing at the fact that I can buy it all or nothing in their current model.  Where they could allow as I said to buy one piece at a time (the G5's I mean) if the G5 AI would speak to my AP.  I like my KFC200 very much, but I am sure I would like the GFC500 more.  Just not 30k more this year.  Maybe not next year.  30k more on top of my usual - what (I never add up actual numbers since I hate to look) 20-30k operating costs all in?  Its one thing to maintain things as they break but large upgrades take some planning.  Actually 2 years ago I had thought this was going to be a 12-15k autopilot all in, but I see it is a lot more.  We will get there. Not complaining but just noting that there could have some of my money now rather than waiting a year or three - or more if some other autopilot project catches my eye instead.

 

[201Mooniac]

Well you could start with one G5 to replace the HSI, then do a second G5 with the two servo GFC-500 and then add the other one or two servos afterwards.  Probably not what you are looking for but doable.

[aviatoreb]

3 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

Well you could start with one G5 to replace the HSI, then do a second G5 with the two servo GFC-500 and then add the other one or two servos afterwards.  Probably not what you are looking for but doable.

I am worried about getting cornered - I never want to invest in part of anything until I know it will get me all the way there.  Yes a g5 hsi will run KFC200. But then not a G5 for KI256.  If I wanted just stick with their displays, maybe I would sooner go aspen.

Anyway I am not doing anything today - but in April - when I overhauled my KI256, I would have gotten the G5 if it would have driven my autopilot.  Not knowing for sure when the GFC500 would come.  It wasn't an option so I just overhauled the KI256 and pushed the problem back a little while.  I'm not complaining - I am just saying I bet I am not the only one.  I think they will not certify the G5 AI to drive a king autopilot now that they have their own autopilot and it would be wise to do so in my opinion since it was gradually draw people like me in rather than waiting a few years until I may have the full sum in a pile to go for the whole thing.  At that time, I will likely go GFC500 plus...or maybe whatever else is the best by then from whichever company.

[MIm20c]

13 hours ago, Davidv said:

It feels like such a dumb decision strategically for them.  Yes, it will force less people to go buy the GFC right NOW, but the G5 will be the gateway drug to another G5, maybe a TXI, G3X (both of which could use a G5 as a backup), ect... at a relatively inexpensive cost.  These 20-30 yr old autopilots won’t last forever and when the overhaul cost looks too expensive and it’s time to switch, is a pilot with a Garmin cockpit (see gateway drug above) going to choose a non-Garmin autopilot given the price of the GFC500?  I don’t think so.

I honestly feel like Garmin offers a good selection already...

Single G5 hsi - gpss and interfaces with most 3rd party AP’s for lateral guidance.

Dual G5’s - great to replace or move all AI’s unless they have a flight director. 

G3x - has highway in the sky so no FD limitation. Can mount the AP driving AI anywhere on the panel or theoretically behind the panel. Just need to keep the altitude encoding altimeter within reach if you have preselect. 

7 inch txi with gad 29 - replaces the AI and encoding altimeter for about $11k in parts. 

[aviatoreb]

8 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

I honestly feel like Garmin offers a good selection already...

Single G5 hsi - gpss and interfaces with most 3rd party AP’s for lateral guidance.

Dual G5’s - great to replace or move all AI’s unless they have a flight director. 

G3x - has highway in the sky so no FD limitation. Can mount the AP driving AI anywhere on the panel or theoretically behind the panel. Just need to keep the altitude encoding altimeter within reach if you have preselect. 

7 inch txi with gad 29 - replaces the AI and encoding altimeter for about $11k in parts. 

No - a dual G5 is not a step.  An attitude indicator G5 will require me to abandon my autopilot entirely unless I at the same time buy all in the gfc500.  It is a crucial missing step in their staged product line.  I would have purchased the G5 as an AI if the option to drive my current autopilot had existed in April and it still does not today.

[MIm20c]

5 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

No - a dual G5 is not a step.  An attitude indicator G5 will require me to abandon my autopilot entirely unless I at the same time buy all in the gfc500.  It is a crucial missing step in their staged product line.  I would have purchased the G5 as an AI if the option to drive my current autopilot had existed in April and it still does not today.

Yep, the FD limitation is less than ideal. However, for an extra $6.5k (plus the cost of a new panel) you could upgrade to a txi instead of dual g5’s.  Might want to reserve your spot at the shop before the third kid heads off to college. 

[MBDiagMan]

On 5/8/2019 at 8:11 AM, 201Mooniac said:

As of this morning, the J and K models are now listed as supported.  I hope my order can now be placed.

I’ve gone back through much of the thread and can’t find if t.he F is STC’d for the GFC.  I expect it is not, but does anyone know for sure and if there are any predictions about when it might happen?

[orionflt]

7 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

I’ve gone back through much of the thread and can’t find if t.he F is STC’d for the GFC.  I expect it is not, but does anyone know for sure and if there are any predictions about when it might happen?

Not yet, it’s on the list with out a date. 

[ArtVandelay]

Yep, the FD limitation is less than ideal. However, for an extra $6.5k (plus the cost of a new panel) you could upgrade to a txi instead of dual g5’s.  Might want to reserve your spot at the shop before the third kid heads off to college. 

What’s the advantage of TXI vs G3X?


Tom

[Davidv]

Feels a little more expensive than that, I’ve received quotes of $25-30K for a TXI including a g5 backup.

[MIm20c]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

What’s the advantage of TXI vs G3X?


Tom

If the owner wants to keep the current BK (or other attitude based APs) the txi and the inexpensive gad43 will replace the 256 and encoding altimeter. 

2 hours ago, Davidv said:

Feels a little more expensive than that, I’ve received quotes of $25-30K for a TXI including a g5 backup.

People are asking for a low cost way to replace the 256. The hardware cost of a 7 inch txi is around $10.2k and a new old stock gad43 is around $650. The two units, along with a small patch in the panel where a AOA indicator could be installed, would fulfill their requirements for about 6.5 amu additional to dual g5’s.

The ki256 could be retained (not connected to anything, a used air AI ($200 ish), or a used lifesaver gyro with battery ($650 ish). 

[johncuyle]

On 9/17/2019 at 7:14 PM, 201Mooniac said:

Agreed, I'm not sure why Garmin hasn't gone for it, it would be a killer solution for so many aircraft.

My KFC 200 is already a killer solution, in the sense that I don't use it anymore because I can't be sure it won't try to kill me.  I can't help but wonder if Garmin doesn't really want to be in the business of sending attitude information to a bunch of ancient autopilots that may well go wrong at any time.

[Steve W]

1 hour ago, johncuyle said:

My KFC 200 is already a killer solution, in the sense that I don't use it anymore because I can't be sure it won't try to kill me.  I can't help but wonder if Garmin doesn't really want to be in the business of sending attitude information to a bunch of ancient autopilots that may well go wrong at any time.

But they already do this with the GAD 43e, it just only works with the TXi... although maybe the higher cost covers their insurance if it does go wrong.

 

[johncuyle]

Just now, Steve W said:

But they already do this with the GAD 43e, it just only works with the TXi... although maybe the higher cost covers their insurance if it does go wrong.

 

Yeah, what I was thinking.  Either that or the certification path they went through for G500/TXi helps limit their liability in some way.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, MIm20c said:

If the owner wants to keep the current BK (or other attitude based APs) the txi and the inexpensive gad43 will replace the 256 and encoding altimeter. 

People are asking for a low cost way to replace the 256. The hardware cost of a 7 inch txi is around $10.2k and a new old stock gad43 is around $650. The two units, along with a small patch in the panel where a AOA indicator could be installed, would fulfill their requirements for about 6.5 amu additional to dual g5’s.

The ki256 could be retained (not connected to anything, a used air AI ($200 ish), or a used lifesaver gyro with battery ($650 ish). 

Hmmm!  Thanks!! That never occurred to me.  I was so fixated on G5 being the lower cost intermediate solution it never occurred to me that 2 G5's installed vs 1 little txi is not so different in cost, and clearly 1 txi is nicer than all the above - and DOES serve as a stepping path toward GFC500.  Suddenly it is clear - next hiccup on my HSI or KI256 and in goes a txi.  Or if I get the itch.

Ps. I do have an electric lifesaver as well.

Edited September 19, 2019 by aviatoreb

[201Mooniac]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Hmmm!  Thanks!! That never occurred to me.  I was so fixated on G5 being the lower cost intermediate solution it never occurred to me that 2 G5's installed vs 1 little txi is not so different in cost, and clearly 1 txi is nicer than all the above - and DOES serve as a stepping path toward GFC500.  Suddenly it is clear - next hiccup on my HSI or KI256 and in goes a txi.  Or if I get the itch.

Ps. I do have an electric lifesaver as well.

Just be aware that path to the GFC-500 also includes a G5 and a GAD-29.

[aviatoreb]

49 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

Just be aware that path to the GFC-500 also includes a G5 and a GAD-29.

Doh!

[KSMooniac]

Doh!

G5 to replace your Lifesaver. GAD 29 isn't terribly expensive. Still a viable option.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[Davidv]

18 hours ago, MIm20c said:

If the owner wants to keep the current BK (or other attitude based APs) the txi and the inexpensive gad43 will replace the 256 and encoding altimeter. 

People are asking for a low cost way to replace the 256. The hardware cost of a 7 inch txi is around $10.2k and a new old stock gad43 is around $650. The two units, along with a small patch in the panel where a AOA indicator could be installed, would fulfill their requirements for about 6.5 amu additional to dual g5’s.

The ki256 could be retained (not connected to anything, a used air AI ($200 ish), or a used lifesaver gyro with battery ($650 ish). 

Ahh thanks, missed the 7” part.

[bradp]

For those that have gone ahead with the GFC- is there a callout as to where in the panel the GMC 507 MCP must be placed?  I understand practically you’d want it within easy reach, but I recall asking this question of Trek and him saying there wasn’t a location prescribed since all of the annunciation and control was / is / can be done with the G5.  Local avionics guy I discussed it with told me “nowadays it needs to be here” pointing up top in center stack.  That would require a lot of reorganization for me.  Just wondering.  Thanks