Shoulder Belt?

[Oldguy]

"Off airport landing" where I walked away from the plane. Spent a total of 5 minutes with paramedic getting BP taken and then released.

Shoulder belt worn.

 

[HIghpockets]

My former flight instructor was only  wearing a lap belt (no shoulder harness) when his Navion lost an engine. He landed short and struck a berm. He sustained a severe cervical spine injury that left him with  permanent quadraparesis as a consequence of the violent flexion/extension movement of his head striking the panel.

[tigers2007]

I wonder how many WW2 pilots would have lived if they had harnesses on. Years ago I saw some archived photos of military pilots that had fatal face and head trauma. I can’t believe any aircraft owner flies without some sort of harness. It’s a cheap upgrade with so much potential.


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[steingar]

I flew my Cherokee for 10 years with just lap belts.  Can't believe how dumb I was.  One of my pals lost his engine on takeoff in his new to him Deb, went down in a field.  His sunglasses were embedded in his face, along with some of his panel.  He didn't fly, drive, chew gum or do much of anything else for a year.  And he went down in a field. 

Shoulder harnesses, every time.  Mrs. Steingar didn't like them, the shoulder belt got caught in the side of the aircraft and was difficult to fasten.  She complained.  I think it was the first time in our marriage that I told her to shut the fuck up and just do as she was told. Yes, I'm still married.

I am never flying without shoulder harnesses again.  Maybe I should look into the airbags.  From what I read it took north of 20 million to certify the things, so 3 grand is quite the bargain.

[RLCarter]

3 hours ago, steingar said:

Mrs. Steingar didn't like them, the shoulder belt got caught in the side of the aircraft and was difficult to fasten.  She complained.  I think it was the first time in our marriage that I told her to shut the fuck up and just do as she was told. Yes, I'm still married.

Still married? We want to know how long you were in the hospital.....

[kerry]

14 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

I wonder how many WW2 pilots would have lived if they had harnesses on. Years ago I saw some archived photos of military pilots that had fatal face and head trauma. I can’t believe any aircraft owner flies without some sort of harness. It’s a cheap upgrade with so much potential.


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I understand your logic but it makes me think how many WW2 pilots survived because they didn't have shoulder harnesses allowing them to have more maneuverability during combat.     

[carusoam]

Kerry I like your logic... but...

Getting strapped in and wearing a helmet seems to be the key to survival in modern fighters...

Getting separated from the seat may require a tool to cut some straps...

Plan A... survive the impact...

Plan B... survive getting out of the plane...

You need to be conscious after step A, to execute step B...

A successful execution of plan B.... usually includes a pic and a post on MS... letting everyone know you are Ok... 

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[Brandontwalker]

Fred,
I used Clarence’s method and got a field approval by my local FSDO. I still have a mock-up bracket I built at the hangar. I’ll take a picture and post it for you next time I go to the airport.  Basic metal working skills and a cheap MIG welder are all that you need.
Brandon

Fred,

I looked, but believe the first mock up of the bracket fell casualty to a massive purge associated with a recent move. However, I was able to find pics of the actual brackets, mount location, and finished product:




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[steingar]

16 hours ago, RLCarter said:

Still married? We want to know how long you were in the hospital.....

Its funny, but long ago I told Mrs. Steingar that I might have to tell her to shut the fuck up in the airplane. She's cool with it.  I have too, and yes we stay married.  Mrs. Steingar is quite intelligent.

She was a bit miffed at the shoulder belt thing until our pal crashed his Deb.  I showed her the photos of the aftermath.  She doesn't complain about the shoulder belts anymore.

[WilliamR]

11 hours ago, kerry said:

I understand your logic but it makes me think how many WW2 pilots survived because they didn't have shoulder harnesses allowing them to have more maneuverability during combat.     

So, my grandfather and I had a good conversation about that very trade off.  Btw, all the fighters he flew and I think the bombers (B-24, 25, and 29) had at least four point harnesses.  Anyway, his thought was he would rather be strapped in tight and swivel his head around than loose in the straps and be injured in a crash.  He saw the aftermath of a friend shot down who ditched in the water just off base on Bougainville Island and had their straps loose.  The gun sight on the P-39 peeled his nose back. 

When I fly I make sure I'm pretty tightly strapped in.  When flying aerobatics, I also ratchet down the straps further after flying for awhile.

William

[gsxrpilot]

This is something that I've gotten from all the wisdom and experience on this site. Consequently I won't fly or ride in a Mooney without shoulder belts and a proper CO monitor. 

Of course, I can bring my own CO monitor along if riding in another Mooney without one.

[Hank]

13 hours ago, carusoam said:

Kerry I like your logic... but...

Getting strapped in and wearing a helmet seems to be the key to survival in modern fighters...

Getting separated from the seat may require a tool to cut some straps...

Plan A... survive the impact...

Plan B... survive getting out of the plane...

You need to be conscious after step A, to execute step B...

A successful execution of plan B.... usually includes a pic and a post on MS... letting everyone know you are Ok... 

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

WWII planes didn't have ejection seats. Open the canopy / window / door, unstrap, stand up and jump! Preferably quickly, while the plane may be corkscrewing down and on fire . . . .

God bless them all!!

[0TreeLemur]

15 hours ago, Brandontwalker said:

Fred,

I looked, but believe the first mock up of the bracket fell casualty to a massive purge associated with a recent move. However, I was able to find pics of the actual brackets, mount location, and finished product:




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Thanks a bunch!   Those are taller than I expected, but I get the gist.   I can whip some of those up.   I'm better at metal work than sewing   Is there any way you could send me a scanned copy of the 337 that you filed?  That would really help me with getting approval.  Between you and @M20Doc I really appreciate the excellent help/advice!!!

[Brandontwalker]

Thanks a bunch!   Those are taller than I expected, but I get the gist.   I can whip some of those up.   I'm better at metal work than sewing   Is there any way you could send me a scanned copy of the 337 that you filed?  That would really help me with getting approval.  Between you and [mention=12030]M20Doc[/mention] I really appreciate the excellent help/advice!!!

One of the concerns was keeping the correct geometry, so the brackets were sized to match the geometry of the shoulder harness in the front seat. There was absolutely no change to the airframe, so the FSDO agreed no 337 was required. The inspector just noted what was done and the approval in the file.


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[bradp]

So these can be done as a minor mod is the takeaway? 

[bradp]

On 10/2/2019 at 7:45 AM, Brandontwalker said:

Fred,

I looked, but believe the first mock up of the bracket fell casualty to a massive purge associated with a recent move. However, I was able to find pics of the actual brackets, mount location, and finished product:




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Brandon why did you double up and weld the sheet metal at the bolt pass through?  Did you need more structure at that point or was it a fittment issue or something else? 

Thanks!!

[Brandontwalker]

Brandon why did you double up and weld the sheet metal at the bolt pass through?  Did you need more structure at that point or was it a fittment issue or something else? 

Thanks!!

I tend to over engineer. The mounting piece is thin with two holes in it for bolts. Just an added margin of error in the event it is ever subjected to loads. And yes, I did heat treat the steel after welding.

 

 

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[FastTex]

So...what's the preferred solution to buy and install shoulder belts? I visited a few sites but it is not clear...It's for a friend of mine with a M20F 1970 ;-)))))))))))))))

Thanks!

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, FastTex said:

So...what's the preferred solution to buy and install shoulder belts? I visited a few sites but it is not clear...It's for a friend of mine with a M20F 1970 ;-)))))))))))))))

Thanks!

These are what I have.   I think most A&Ps could put them in.

https://alphaaviation.com/mooney-m20-a-thru-k-push-button-release/

 

[FastTex]

15 minutes ago, EricJ said:

These are what I have.   I think most A&Ps could put them in.

https://alphaaviation.com/mooney-m20-a-thru-k-push-button-release/

 

Wow, more than $1k but I should not be surprised. Plus installation...

[Skates97]

33 minutes ago, EricJ said:

These are what I have.   I think most A&Ps could put them in.

https://alphaaviation.com/mooney-m20-a-thru-k-push-button-release/

 

Take your time (the left side is a beast) and a semi-handy owner can do it with a sign-off from your A&P.

16 minutes ago, FastTex said:

Wow, more than $1k but I should not be surprised. Plus installation...

This was the first upgrade I did on the plane shortly after buying it. Think of it as the best money that you can spend and hopefully never need.

[Andy95W]

 

18 minutes ago, FastTex said:

Wow, more than $1k but I should not be surprised. Plus installation...

But protecting you and your loved ones from a TBI- priceless. 

[FastTex]

2 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

 

But protecting you and your loved ones from a TBI- priceless. 

Very true. Do you guys have the inertial reel or the fixed one?

 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, FastTex said:

Very true. Do you guys have the inertial reel or the fixed one?

 

I have the inertial.   Much better, IMHO.

 

[skydvrboy]

I just bought a set from Hooker Harness. They were $400 for both front seats, $200 each, plus shipping.  You still need to buy the bolts and clamp from Alpha Aviation, but a lot more reasonable price.  I’ll post pictures when I get them in.