TruTrak Autopilot Pre Order's / Status Update

[MBDiagMan]

30 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

You’re irritated because the certification date slipped and you already spent the AP budget on other things?  I’m confused the cost is the same at less than half the price of an stec 30 as it was 6 months ago. 

I will refrain from taking this as an insult although it seemed to be positioned that way.  I still have the funds set aside for the Trutrak and am anxious for it to be installed.  I am much better with my money than you imply.  It’s quite interesting you can make an assessment of someone’s budgeting habits without knowing them, but I realize that some people imagine themselves possessing skills that they do not really have.   You also must not be aware that it appears we may never have Trutrak in a Mooney at any price.

Now it appears that there will never be a time when it can be legally installed.  I need an autopilot and was planning on Trutrak availability.

[Jesse Saint]

1 hour ago, TX-Champ said:

Does anyone know the harness specifications needed for the TruTrak install?  I couldn't find it in their docs.   I'm down for annual and have everything opened up and accessible.

It would be a great time to run some wire bundles.

(I've done a TruTrack on a RV9A in the past so that provides some guidance but it may vary a bit...)

Any details would be appreciated.

There are 7 wires that run to the roll servo and 8 wires to the pitch servo. A red and black power set needs to be 20AWG. The rest are 22AWG. This is all from memory, but I'm fairly confident about it.

[MIm20c]

@MBDiagMan I agree that my response was too pointed and I apologize. However, I still do not understand what has changed unless you know something that I don’t. They have not increased the price, added any limitations since announcing, or mislead the customer beyond progressing slower than originally planned. Why do you keep saying we will never have a trutrak for the Mooney? They have done the flight testing, own and travel to the trade shows in an E, and said things are on track for this summer.  

I guess I’m just a little jaded with all the negativity for an entire AP system that cost less than a yaw damper add on for many other companies.  I’m truly thankful we have all the choices we do at such an affordable price point. 

[MBDiagMan]

Well, I never saw anything about this summer.  At this point, after being delayed so many times, do you think it wise to bank on it being available this summer?  They have missed every date they have ever projected for the Mooney certification

, so how can anyone count on their projections?  It is very easy to believe that the FAA is responsible for the delay, but the result is the same.  The long and the short of it is that it is impossible to rely on any release dates put forth on this product.

BTW, apology accepted.

[ragedracer1977]

16 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Well, I never saw anything about this summer.  At this point, after being delayed so many times, do you think it wise to bank on it being available this summer?  They have missed every date they have ever projected for the Mooney certification

, so how can anyone count on their projections?  It is very easy to believe that the FAA is responsible for the delay, but the result is the same.  The long and the short of it is that it is impossible to rely on any release dates put forth on this product.

BTW, apology accepted.

I’ve only been involved in aviation for a short time, but I’m already well aware of the fact that you really have to add about a year to any projections.  And then, in a year, add another.  

[MBDiagMan]

Well, it was a year ago, when I began seeing projected dates on the Trutrak.  After a fifty year career, most of it in the software industry, I have experienced many missed release dates up close and personal, and we didn’t even have the FAA to blame it on.   It seemed that we would get things released during the month that we projected, but it was getting the projected year correct that gave us trouble.  Doesn’t make it any less frustrating.  I’m ready to find someone to overhaul my PC Turn Coordinator and forget about the Trutrak.  If I can find a reliable rebuilder that’s what I will do.

[steingar]

You want things good, fast, and cheap.  In reality you only get to pick two of the three.

[Airways]

15 minutes ago, steingar said:

You want things good, fast, and cheap.  In reality you only get to pick two of the three.

Aviation in a nutshell. Bravo !

[orionflt]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

You want things good, fast, and cheap.  In reality you only get to pick two of the three.

I’d say more like one in aviation!

[ArtVandelay]

You want things good, fast, and cheap.  In reality you only get to pick two of the three.

Two?
You’re lucky to get 1.


Tom

[David_H]

1 minute ago, orionflt said:

I’d say more like one in aviation!

There may even be some luck needed to get one. Cheap doesn't exist in aviation.

[DXB]

3 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Two?
You’re lucky to get 1.


Tom

Yeah as a lowly PP, you pretty much have to fight like hell to get "good" as your one - that's the one worth going for.  You  have to have your A&P before you can hope to get two.  

Edited March 4, 2019 by DXB

[Navi]

On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 2:16 PM, aviatoreb said:

That is very interesting!

Just to throw  my hat into the mix... for information only!

We have a 1976 Cherokee Warrior. We did most of the work installing the TruTrak ourselves under the watchful eye of our AME.  We carefully recorded time and details. (LOTS more on this if you wish, but specific to the PA-28's )

We removed a Century I single axis with "Radio Tracker".  The TT head dropped into an existing 3" hole  A custom cutout for the flat pack and / or shuffling the radio stack will cost more time. Some have radio antennas mounted under the floor or other installations added over the decades that may have to be moved.

It took 18 man hours, not including  "reading,  planning and fondling" .  We had not done this before but are considered adept at the tasks required.  NO antennas had to be removed, NO "rats nest/ old wiring " had to be removed. NO "deferred maintenance" items turned up.  From all accounts, (then and since) we had a "typical, BASIC install".

Time removing the Century was exchanged by being able to use the CWS switch, power wiring, master and GPS switch from the Century install. There was another hour for an AMO to check out and do the "Major Modification"  (Canadian) form.  A one hour check out flight.   Add this up however you wish.

A good AME /AP with all the tools at hand should have this out the door in 20 hours on a standard basic install.  Of note here, there are only two tasks that require two people, each requiring less than 30 minutes.

The TT install in a PA-28 is "brilliantly simple".  (others words)  My times have been reduced by some techs that are in their 3rd to 10th install of the TT AP.. I am aware of many basic installs that have been completed with out fuss in 25 hours or less, and some in as little as 14-16 hrs. if the tech has done it many times already.

FWIW.. Y Moony MV!  

Nav

 

Edited March 4, 2019 by Navi

[David_H]

26 minutes ago, Navi said:

Just to throw  my hat into the mix... for information only!

We have a 1976 Cherokee Warrior. We did most of the work installing the TruTrak ourselves under the watchful eye of our AME.  We carefully recorded time and details. (LOTS more on this if you wish, but specific to the PA-28's )

We removed a Century I single axis with "Radio Tracker".  The TT head dropped into an existing 3" hole  A custom cutout for the flat pack and / or shuffling the radio stack will cost more time. Some have radio antennas mounted under the floor or other installations added over the decades that may have to be moved.

It took 18 man hours, not including  "reading,  planning and fondling" .  We had not done this before but are considered adept at the tasks required.  NO antennas had to be removed, NO "rats nest/ old wiring " had to be removed. NO "deferred maintenance" items turned up.  From all accounts, (then and since) we had a "typical, BASIC install".

Time removing the Century was exchanged by being able to use the CWS switch, power wiring, master and GPS switch from the Century install. There was another hour for an AMO to check out and do the "Major Modification"  (Canadian) form.  A one hour check out flight.   Add this up however you wish.

A good AME /AP with all the tools at hand should have this out the door in 20 hours on a standard basic install.  Of note here, there are only two tasks that require two people, each requiring less than 30 minutes.

The TT install in a PA-28 is "brilliantly simple".  (others words)  My times have been reduced by some techs that are in their 3rd to 10th install of the TT AP.. I am aware of many basic installs that have been completed with out fuss in 25 hours or less, and some in as little as 14-16 hrs. if the tech has done it many times already.

FWIW.. Y Moony MV!  

Nav

 

I'd like to make sure I read and understood what you wrote correctly. I'll also say that I'm in no way doubting your word.

Did you just state that you're able to do the TT install within the "TT quoted" install time... without having the experience of a seasoned Avionics Installer?

[Navi]

21 minutes ago, David_H said:

I'd like to make sure I read and understood what you wrote correctly. I'll also say that I'm in no way doubting your word.

Did you just state that you're able to do the TT install within the "TT quoted" install time... without having the experience of a seasoned Avionics Installer?

Yes

To clarify. I, and my plane partner) actually DID the install within the TT quoted time... (at Feb last year they were estimating 20 man hours. )

To wit...

Myself and my plane partner are considered good at stuff like this.. My background is in in electronics/ electrical technical work.. we know what tools to use and where wiring should or should not go. We had an experienced  AME to guide us. We are able to read and follow the "book of words". We are familiar with the plane having done "owner assisted annuals" for years. (we can have seats and a side panel out in a few minutes)

Autopilot experience ….  I installed the Century I  servos and head/relay six years ago with the same arrangement with our AME. (shop completed the wiring and checkout)

David_H  , The TT install (in the Cherokee) is simple, easy, you can SEE everything you are doing, the instruction book is very good with excellent pictures and diagrams. It was a fun, interesting project.

A year ago, there was SO MUCH discussion around the install times that we decided to document the install. ( I was shipped one of the first units the same day the FAA letter got to Corey's hand) (documentation and picture taking times were not included)

It should be a cakewalk for an experienced tech...   (IMHO)  In the Cherokee, it is just that easy. (well, except for changing the circuit breaker.. Grrrr)

Cheers!

Nav

 

  

Edited March 4, 2019 by Navi

[David_H]

9 minutes ago, Navi said:

Yes

To clarify. I, and my plane partner) actually DID the install within the TT quoted time... (at Feb last year they were estimating 20 man hours. )

To wit...

Myself and my plane partner are considered good at stuff like this.. My background is in in electronics/ electrical technical work.. we know what tools to use and where wiring should or should not go. We had an experienced  AME to guide us. We are able to read and follow the "book of words". We are familiar with the plane having done "owner assisted annuals" for years. (we can have seats and a side panel out in a few minutes)

Autopilot experience ….  I installed the Century I  servos and head/relay six years ago with the same arrangement with our AME. (shop completed the wiring and checkout)

David_H  , The TT install (in the Cherokee) is simple, easy, you can SEE everything you are doing, the instruction book is very good with excellent pictures and diagrams. It was a fun, interesting project.

A year ago, there was SO MUCH discussion around the install times that we decided to document the install. ( I was shipped one of the first units the same day the FAA letter got to Corey's hand) (documentation and picture taking times were not included)

It should be a cakewalk for an experienced tech...   (IMHO)  In the Cherokee, it is just that easy. (well, except for changing the circuit breaker.. Grrrr)

Cheers!

Nav

 

  

Thanks for the details Navi. It's much appreciated. It'll be interesting to find out how the install times will differ for for a Mooney. Everyone is looking forward to finding out.

No disrespect was meant is questioning your observed install time. That said, your Cherokee installation time goes contrary to what's been stated earlier in this thread by some Avionics Shops.

[MIm20c]

@Navi I’m interested to hear your opinions on the performance of the AP. Compared to your old unit and/or any other aircraft AP systems you have experienced. 

[Navi]

8 minutes ago, David_H said:

Thanks for the details Navi. It's much appreciated. It'll be interesting to find out how the install times will differ for for a Mooney. Everyone is looking forward to finding out.

No disrespect was meant is questioning your observed install time. That said, your Cherokee installation time goes contrary to what's been stated earlier in this thread by some Avionics Shops.

>>> No disrespect was meant is questioning your observed install time

Understood.. and no worries Sir!

Thought I would comment on this whereas I actually DID do the install, and my times turned out to be typical of others on the Cherokee groups.. Please note, it was a BASIC install,  no complications.. Our "shop" here had to stop an install of a S-Tec because the aircraft wiring was such a mess that they could not sign off the plane without making it "right".  I am not that familiar with the Mooney  but it is more cramped inside than the Cherokee and I can imagine it not being as easy, hence taking longer.

I am here because one of our partners has expressed interest in a nice Mooney, and it has no autopilot. Our TT works SO WELL, and we would have the same installation in  a Mooney in a heartbeat.

TT are flying their Mooney around the country and the TT is working well in it, and I believe they awaiting the final letter from the FAA..

Hopefully they will get the letter soon for all the Mooneyiacs..   :)

Nav

 

 

[NJMac]

[mention=17915]Navi[/mention] I’m interested to hear your opinions on the performance of the AP. Compared to your old unit and/or any other aircraft AP systems you have experienced. 

X2

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[ArtVandelay]

I assume it’s mostly self contained, 2 wires to get GPS data, 2 for power, 2 for navigation? It doesn’t use VORs or heading mode so just needs current gps velocity, gps altitude, and desired track to next waypoint.


Tom

[DingyHarry]

Maybe I missed this, but has anyone been provided a reason for the delay in FAA approval? If the unit is effective and approved for use in other similar aircraft, why would it not be approved with relatively little fuss in the Mooney?

[NJMac]

Maybe I missed this, but has anyone been provided a reason for the delay in FAA approval? If the unit is effective and approved for use in other similar aircraft, why would it not be approved with relatively little fuss in the Mooney?

Guessing it's the shutdown that backed them up.

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[ArtVandelay]

Guessing it's the shutdown that backed them up.

It’s amazing how a 35 day shutdown translates into delays that are months long.


Tom

[David_H]

7 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

It’s amazing how a 35 day shutdown translates into delays that are months long.


Tom

Hmm... Trickle-down government Math?

[Navi]

2 hours ago, MIm20c said:

@Navi I’m interested to hear your opinions on the performance of the AP. Compared to your old unit and/or any other aircraft AP systems you have experienced. 

Hmmmm…  OK.. Thinking...  With the hazards of a loooooog post....

OK... your questions first and I will copy here the test flight(s) post I placed in the Cherokee Group last year...    for those whom wish to read for a while..   

- Our Century I worked well, smooth and accurate. It worked well, with simple analogue steering, so the TT was a considerable step up for us. The GPSS steering anticipate turns and rolls the plane out smoothly on the desired track. I have flown behind some Garmin varieties and a S-tec 55. One  Garmin had  issues , so not fair to comment on that flight. The S-tec seemed to work well, but only had one flight in that aircraft.. LOTS of time behind the Century as PIC...  IMHO the TT worked better than the others, and continues to do so a year later.. In comparison, it is deadly accurate in all flight modes... In all fairness, it is the only DIGITAL AP I have flown any amount.

Here are the posts from the test flights last year... 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TEST FLIGHT TODAY!

Very bumpy, but an okay VFR day here at CYFC  in Canada..

As this was also the first flight after the annual inspection, we cautiously orbited the airport WAY above the Control Zone to check out the plane thoroughly before heading out to the “training” area.

The ground checkout was completed, we synced the AP to Altitude, then the AP was turned off and away we went.  After the plane checked out OK, we headed to the training area.  Following the flight test steps in the TRUTRAK  manual, we  held a steady altitude and heading and engaged the AP.   It just took over and flew for us, holding the track solidly in a 15 Knot crosswind at 4000 Ft. We were bumped around a bit, and the AP held us within 30 ft. up or down, gaining alt slightly over the next 4-5 minutes. (ALT HOLD not engaged SVS set to ”0”  only) 

We synced the AP to the new altitude, engaged it at a new heading in a 200 fpm climb and it held this well, requiring an increase in power and retrimming, following the trim indication on the AP screen. We then turned up (?) the ROC, the airspeed fell to the “MIN SPEED” and the AP dutifully lowered the nose as it is supposed to do.

Next, leveled out and trimmed, we turned the knob from 340 to 040 and it slowly turned to the new track and held it within 1 or 2 degrees (remember the crosswind (20Knts + ) from the left on this track). Then we turned back to 340 and the turn was more aggressive (crosswind again), and it settled on 340 + - one or two degrees. (The test instruction sheet suggested  60 degree turns)

OK!  Feeling good, we then did a “Direct to” on the 796 GPS (RS 232 Steering Data only for this test flight) while heading almost directly AWAY from the airport.  Turning left until it settled on a 45 degree intercept track to the DT track, it then  turned and settled on the track smoothly with very little overshoot and held it accurately.

Step 13 says to test a “Disconnect with the CWS button”.   3 Beeps, 3 flashes of the blue LED and the AP disconnected.

Then we banked the plane, pushed the APLVL button, the AP engaged, leveled the plane and turned to resume the previous track.

Steps 17 and 18 test the Altitude select, so we set it for  300 ft. lower,  set the VS to -300 and down we went (TRIM !) and we leveled of within 30 ft. of the selected altitude in a rough layer.

Step 21 tested the AEP,… worked great. Banked the plane past 45 Degrees and felt the noticeable “nudge“ back to level. (It just nudges the controls firmly, it does not level the plane)

Well… end of the flight test page..   Yeah!  J

So, we tested the over speed protection.  We set the VS to -500, attended the throttle and when we reached the pre-set max speed, the AP dutifully raised the nose to hold the speed from increasing.  Oh ho ho ! .. WE ARE LIKING THIS NEW TOY!!  J

We set a new “Direct To” on the Garmin 796, set VS to -200, engaged “NAV” mode and the AP took us home.  at - 200 ROD. We came into a smooth layer (!), so we engaged ALT HOLD. This thing NAILED the altitude and seemed to hold it with + - 10 feet as near as we could interpolate the altimeter,  and the AP handled the plane very smoothly.

Then the smooth layer was gone and we were done for the day… L

 Hoping for a SMOOTH day soon when we can really interpret just how well this AP does.  We found it hard to allow for being bounced around so much at times, but today it got a good workout, and it did very well.

The takeaways…

Very pleased!  Love having the AP hold altitude for us! (We came from a Century I wing leveler only)

Trim!  Very little attention needed when level, but keep “on it” (and the throttle) when transiting into and out of climbs and descents. It will take us a bit of practice to get the power settings correct for the climbs and descents. We will probably find power settings that work for various VS rates, and that will make transitions quick and easy.  There is more than one way to do this….

It was a busy flight, with a lot to absorb, but so far, liking this!   It WILL take some practice to use this tool properly, and get the most out of it.

Our aircraft is back together, and our new Autopilot checked out 100%... a good day!!

 _______________________________________---

   May 5/ 2018

FINALLY a calm day so I can really evaluate this TT autopilot…Everything worked exactly as it should.. It is deadly on a track, to one degree. Flew the plane accurately and positively..

Held altitude, well, the altimeter was essentially “stuck” ….  If it was varying any , I could not see it. Commanded turns  rolled out exactly on the new track.

Climbs and descents .  I think there is a way to do this smoothly. The autopilot  will climb and take you to the programmed altitude accurately. The first one was from 3000 to 4000 at 500 fpm.  At cruise (70%) power. It settled in at 500 fpm and eventually came to “MIN SP”  and dutifully lowered the nose to maintain the minimum speed. I added power  and trimmed “up” as requested and  got it balanced  so it went to 4000 and leveled off accurately, it asked for “dn” trim,  then had to reduce power.   Next time it was easier. Selected 4000, set the VS at 500 fpm. Set climb power and trim and rich mixture, -  THEN engaged the AP. It immediately locked on to the climb and took us to 4000 ft. same as before, but I found this way to be less pilot effort. On the level out I reduced power  to the previous setting (EDM)  and retrimmed and we were on our way locked  very accurately at 4000 ft.

Descents need the same amount of work. Engaging the AP to decent to 3000 at 500 fpm got us going a bit fast, and the AP lifted the nose to keep the speed in range while I reduced the power.   Again, the 2^nd time I pressed the CWS , reduced power, trimmed for the descent , THEN engaged the AP and it locked on to the descent and held it to level out.

I am going to play with both methods to see which I prefer. I would appreciate some feedback on this from others.  (?)

I did find out that , -  if the AP is requesting a minor trim change, a little bump on the yoke may remove the trim request.  (before going to the trim wheel. )

First time with GPSS.. Loved it. Flying directly away from the airport at 3000 ft. Did a “Direct to” back to the airport on the GPS and engaged the AP. The plane rolled into a 2x standard rate left turn for about 240 degrees, leveled and began a smooth right turn, held the altitude EXACTLY through the turn, (asking for “up” trim” ) and intercepted the outbound track EXACTLY…

AND FLEW THROUGH MY OWN WAKE TURBULENCE !!!  J   After saying out loud “NO (snip) WAY!   This was a teardrop reverse turn with ONLY the AP!  

OK, OK, … I KNOW this was a coincidence, and could probably never repeat it,…whatever..  but it did happen this time!…   J  But it WAS dead calm, and this was the ONLY wiggle in the entire flight.

So far, so good.  VERY pleased with our new toy!..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apologies for the exclamations.. but we did have fun!

In many more  hours over the past year, it has continued to exceed expectations...  Before you ask... we do not have a WAAS navigator, so have not done approaches.  Feedback from others is that it does approaches very well, following a good navigator of course. One pilot tested it all the war to the rnwy,  (I think he had an IFD 440 ? ) nailing the center line in a crosswind until he discoed it at 10 feet, pulled the power off and flared...

A new information.  Almost all the TT APs in Cherokees fly the plane "out the door", with very little required "tuning" during test flights. The factory settings are unchanged  in almost all the installations… Looks like TT flew the heck out of some Cherokees to get the settings this close...

Our next project is the Aspen E5, which will interface with  and steer the TT in all kinds of modes

If you have any specific questions  I will try to answer them here..

Hope this helps... 

Nav