Cowl Fasteners

[ArtVandelay]

Do you have pictures?

[FlyingDude]

2 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Thanks. But I assume this is after the repair, right? It looks good to me... Or not?

I wondered what the bad way looked like...

[ArtVandelay]

Thanks. But I assume this is after the repair, right? It looks good to me... Or not?
I wondered what the bad way looked like...

Look at MooneyTunes pictures above, some fit, many don’t.

[FlyingDude]

15 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Look at MooneyTunes pictures above, some fit, many don’t.

Yeah... Crazy...

[DCarlton]

This is a little off topic, but has anyone replaced the fasteners on the fuselage battery access side panel with something new and wonderful?  Several of mine are really loose. 

Update.  Looks like Skybolt has options for the Mooney battery access panel too.  Just gotta figure out which option fits my F. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by DCarlton

[ArtVandelay]

This is a little off topic, but has anyone replaced the fasteners on the fuselage battery access side panel with something new and wonderful?  Several of mine are really loose. 
Update.  Looks like Skybolt has options for the Mooney battery access panel too.  Just gotta figure out which option fits my F. 

I replaced them with shiny stainless steel versions with plastic washers to protect my new paint job.

[Peter Rejto]

I just brought back a Skybolt kit from the USA for my 78 J.  Maybe I'm just stupid but for the life of me I can't make sense of some of what I was sent. 

 

1. The package included 3 different packs of flat head screws of different lengths. No idea what these may have to do with a 78 J cowling...

2. I need at least 14 SK28S3-5S and only received 10. Two of the camlocs work fine with the -6S size, but not the rest.

3. I was sent 25 DP1085-20SS dimpled washers. I cannot figure out how these fit to the SK28S3 series.  Re the 4 camlocs just behind the spinner I had to use the old existing dimpled washers.

I have not even started on the lower cowl yet. Maybe it will go better!

Bad luck, or am I not seeing something obvious?

Thanks!

Peter

Edited March 27, 2022 by Peter Rejto

[carusoam]

Peter,

Do you have the parts manual? (IPC)

The challenge for the sky bolt people…. I have no idea where they get their experience from…. Do they have a copy of the IPC?

 

Good luck going forwards…

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

The problem I ran into is that there is enough variation in the thickness of the fiberglass that it required different lengths is some locations. After some trial and error, I just ordered the studs I needed from Aircraft Spruce. 

Skip

[Peter Rejto]

I don't have the IPC, but not sure that would help me now. I trusted Skybolt. I've written and I hope I can trust them to respond.

In the meantime I've drilled out a couple of the dimpled washers and now they fit and look reasonable, but I can't see why I should need to do that.

Anyway, I will update when I get some news, hopefully on Monday!

P

Edited March 28, 2022 by Peter Rejto

[Peter Rejto]

Is there a way to install the retaining ring on the camloc without the special tool shown in some videos? I did buy this tool (SK-T26) but I cannot get it to work for the smaller camlocs and the split ring retainer. The video on the Skybolt website shows it working with the washer type that holds the Camloc firmly in place. 

 

The videos I've looked at using a different tool seem to show that the center stud and one leg will fit and then the remaining leg is pushed/forced though the split ring. The retaining rings I was sent seem to be too small. i/e., the center stud will not go into the split ring center hole with one leg inserted. 

Also, what is the method for removing the grommet retaining ring for the larger camlocs short of buying the removal tool SK-T27? 

Thanks!

Peter

Edited March 28, 2022 by Peter Rejto

[carusoam]

I believe getting the retaining rings off is a cutting wheel job…  Great for Dentists and A&Ps….

Use extra caution to not cut any too much…

 

The fancy pliers are helpful for compressing the spring for the stud in the center… really easy to use.

 

Putting the ring on with the punch with the rubber bulb/handle… must be an A&P specialized job….   
 

Things I tried for my M20C way back in the day…

Mostly, I needed the center spring compressed… to replace the rusted cores….

 

I went to the A&P to finish the the things I needed done…

That job looks much easier than it is…. Too much on the line for simple mistakes…

Nice to have done, once it is over….

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…   

Best regards,

-a-

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Peter Rejto said:

Is there a way to install the retaining ring on the camloc without the special tool shown in some videos? I did buy this tool (SK-T26) but I cannot get it to work for the smaller camlocs and the split ring retainer. The video on the Skybolt website shows it working with the washer type that holds the Camloc firmly in place. 

 

The videos I've looked at using a different tool seem to show that the center stud and one leg will fit and then the remaining leg is pushed/forced though the split ring. The retaining rings I was sent seem to be too small. i/e., the center stud will not go into the split ring center hole with one leg inserted. 

Also, what is the method for removing the grommet retaining ring for the larger camlocs short of buying the removal tool SK-T27? 

Thanks!

Peter

I've been able to get most things done with the ring tool you have and the camloc pliers, which actually are quite helpful.    Some of the stuff can be a pain to do, but with the pliers much of it gets easier.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/camloctools3.php

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by EricJ

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Peter Rejto said:

Is there a way to install the retaining ring on the camloc without the special tool shown in some videos? I did buy this tool (SK-T26) but I cannot get it to work for the smaller camlocs and the split ring retainer. The video on the Skybolt website shows it working with the washer type that holds the Camloc firmly in place. 

 

The videos I've looked at using a different tool seem to show that the center stud and one leg will fit and then the remaining leg is pushed/forced though the split ring. The retaining rings I was sent seem to be too small. i/e., the center stud will not go into the split ring center hole with one leg inserted. 

Also, what is the method for removing the grommet retaining ring for the larger camlocs short of buying the removal tool SK-T27? 

Thanks!

Peter

The internal lock washers are slipped over the cross pin, then pushed down with a 5/16” socket.  For removing the split ring from the larger grommets, use a small jewellers screwdriver at the split to pry the ring off.  Then the tool you bought to reinstall the new grommet and lock ring.

Clarence

[Peter Rejto]

Thanks for all the tips. I have manages to pry off the lock rings....took a bit of fussing, but done. Then I discovered that the row of larger fasteners running over the top of the cowling all have very enlarged holes through the fiberglass such that the retaining ring would have no purchase. I've had to drill/file out a number of thin washers to put underneath the fiberglass so the lock ring will function. 

This job is a lot more labor intense than I imagined!

I received a very curt unhelpful response from Skybolt. It appears so far that nobody there is willing to answer questions from a non-engineer sort of person (me!). My questions were straightforward enough but ignored (so far).

Peter

Edited March 28, 2022 by Peter Rejto

[carusoam]

There is a discussion around here for rehabilitating the 201’s cowl…. Byron AKA JetDriven did a nice job documenting his rehab project a few years ago…

Best regards,

-a-

[Peter Rejto]

I've finished for the moment. I can't complete until I get a few additional fasteners from Skybolt. I think what I've got now is much better than before, but I guess there is only so much one can do with a 44 year-old cowling and 29 year-old paint job!

I wasn't aware that the first 6 fasteners starting backwards from the prop (3 each side) need to be fully removed in order to fit. I found out the hard way. I may need to remove two more camlocs as getting the top cowling on now is proving harder than I like. For the moment I decided not to remove the painted grommets on the lower cowling.. I may change my mind about that.

The nicest part of the repair was getting the two camlocs fixed in place on the bottom of the cowl near the nose gear. The holes are giant! Fortunately the kit contained two oversized camlocs. Even so I had to file out two thin washers to put on the inside of the cowling. With the extra washer the fit was very tight. I was just able to get the oversized retaining ring fitted. Hopefully these hold up!

[ArtVandelay]

The only fasteners I fully remove are the corners, the rest have retaining rings.

[0TreeLemur]

Our J has seven  small SS camlocs on the upper cowl where it connects to the rib on the lower cowl.  One didn't seem to have enough bite, but I got it to seemingly hang onto something.   Went flying.   Bombed rural Alabama with a camloc.

All of those camlocs in this location of my cowl flop around.   Several fall out.   There might be varied lengths and I might not have put them back in the right position.   Shouldn't there be a retainer on the back side of these to hold them in their holes?

Looking at AS, I gather that a J model at that location will use the 2000 series camlocs?   Can anyone confirm this?  Anybody have a packing slip from when they ordered these?   The length and max. grip are the variables.   At $7-$8 ea. I don't want to guess too much?

Thx.

Fred

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Our J has seven  small SS camlocs on the upper cowl where it connects to the rib on the lower cowl.  One didn't seem to have enough bite, but I got it to seemingly hang onto something.   Went flying.   Bombed rural Alabama with a camloc.

All of those camlocs in this location of my cowl flop around.   Several fall out.   There might be varied lengths and I might not have put them back in the right position.   Shouldn't there be a retainer on the back side of these to hold them in their holes?

Looking at AS, I gather that a J model at that location will use the 2000 series camlocs?   Can anyone confirm this?  Anybody have a packing slip from when they ordered these?   The length and max. grip are the variables.   At $7-$8 ea. I don't want to guess too much?

Thx.

Fred

The small ones are 2700 series Camlocs. I believe the IPC calls out -4s. There should be a number embossed on the head of your remaining existing ones and you can go up or down from that to improve the fit. Length varies according to the thickness of the cowling and these things were hand built. Each stud should have a split washer on the engine side to retain it. 2700 studs and washers can be installed without special tools.

The larger studs are 4002 series Camlocs. I believe the IPC calls out -5s. Again, the length is embossed on the heads. These require a tool to insert and remove but there is no retaining washer on the stud.

The Aircraft Spruce catalog has a chart for panel thickness for determining length if you are unsure and want to measure the parts.

Skip

 

[carusoam]

Oddly, the IPC doesn’t specify where the long ones go…

But, it is easy to figure out….

The shorter Camlocs are holding two layers of sheet metal together…

The longer ones are holding three layers together…

Holding Cowling parts together… usually use the short ones…

Cowling to fuselage… has a few that are penetrating the thick set of three layers…

The spring should hold the fasteners tight… or they will move around and wear the hole out….

Old fuzzy memories only… not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

2700-4 are along the sides, the very back corner of a J at the boot Cowl is a 2700-8.   Sometimes there are fives in there because people add an extra layer or two of fiberglass at the paint shop. In the stock thickness of the cowling there is about .110 to .120. Anything more than that mess a longer stud than a 4. 
I took all the retaining washers off the 2700s and just take them out like screws it's easier to do that is to set the cowling in the grass and lose a few, the little split washer set up to have is not very good and those things are always falling out. Besides that, it gets very hard to put the top cowl on the bottom because the studs fall into the holes and jam the thing and it's even more aggravation.

[ArtVandelay]

What’s more aggravating is when the shop loses your expensive skybolt camloc and replaces it with an old regular camloc.
I now do the removal of the cowling…mechanics simply don’t care about my plane like I do.

[carusoam]

2 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

What’s more aggravating is when the shop loses your expensive skybolt camloc and replaces it with an old regular camloc.
I now do the removal of the cowling…mechanics simply don’t care about my plane like I do.

Up early Tom?  Or really late…

 

-a-

[EricJ]

10 hours ago, jetdriven said:

2700-4 are along the sides, the very back corner of a J at the boot Cowl is a 2700-8.   Sometimes there are fives in there because people add an extra layer or two of fiberglass at the paint shop. In the stock thickness of the cowling there is about .110 to .120. Anything more than that mess a longer stud than a 4. 
I took all the retaining washers off the 2700s and just take them out like screws it's easier to do that is to set the cowling in the grass and lose a few, the little split washer set up to have is not very good and those things are always falling out. Besides that, it gets very hard to put the top cowl on the bottom because the studs fall into the holes and jam the thing and it's even more aggravation.

When I bought my airplane about half of the top cowl fasteners would just fall out when removed.   After a while I replaced the washers to keep them from doing that, and instantly regretted it.      Now as the washers fall off I just leave them alone and let them fall out.   Putting them in a little container to keep them from wandering off is pretty easy.