20C sitting a while

[airbusflyboy]

Need some real advice concerning possible purchase of a 20C that has been sitting out of annual for almost 10 years , landing gear donuts need replaced , fuel caps are old style rubber plugs that are not sealing , all logbooks , Hartzell AD prop , nice paint and interior , always in a hangar , mid time engine 

[gsxrpilot]

The sad fact is that it's probably not worth anything. If it's been sitting 10 years, you can be sure the engine is junk. These deals come along a few times a year. And typically they take much more than the plane is worth, just to get it airworthy. 

If you're an A&P, retired, with tools and a hangar... and you like wrenching more than flying... it might work out. Otherwise, I'd bet it doesn't.

A C in top condition with a modern steam gauge panel/avionics, WAAS GPS, autopilot, mid time engine, with good pain/interior and some speed mods... is worth $50K. So figure where you are and work backwards. You can start with $25K for the engine work that it will need. 

[Jim Peace]

24 minutes ago, airbusflyboy said:

Need some real advice concerning possible purchase of a 20C that has been sitting out of annual for almost 10 years ,

It depends AIRBUSBOY, are you a captain or an FO. 

The gear shocks you mention will be the cheapest thing you do to the plane at between 1100 yourself  or 2000 dollars with labor.....everything else will eat up multiple months of paychecks.

also where is this plane?  dry climate? corrosion?

 

[Mooneymite]

While there are occasionally "finds", this doesn't sound like one....even if it's free.

When shopping for a plane, write down what you want and buy that plane.  It's almost always cheaper to buy something that the previous owner paid to bring it up to your standards than paying to do it yourself. 

Parts and labor tend to be at full retail, while a used aircraft is much closer to wholesale.

[airbusflyboy]

Ok Thanks for the good info ! I don’t know anything about Mooney airplanes but have always liked what I heard about them ......... I think if we pursue this I will get a prebuy inspect done first to make sure of its status ......... Appreciate it ! 

[AlexLev]

7 minutes ago, airbusflyboy said:

Ok Thanks for the good info ! I don’t know anything about Mooney airplanes but have always liked what I heard about them ......... I think if we pursue this I will get a prebuy inspect done first to make sure of its status ......... Appreciate it ! 

Make sure you get a prebuy done by someone who knows Mooney's, check the tubular structure, examine the spar -- you almost definitely will need an overhaul on that engine, plan at least 15k on the most inexpensive side (Jewell Aviation) to have that done. Add to that, the landing gear shocks (2K) and the countless other squawks I'm sure a plane that's been sitting for so long may have..

Even if you can get the plane for 15K, by the time all is said is done...you'll end up having to spend 30K+ to get the plane to where you likely want it (esp if you want an IFR GPS, etc)..so this may not be quite the deal you are thinking it may be.

[airbusflyboy]

Yea could all be true ........ Cylinders were pulled and cam and other internals checked for pitting / rust , none found . I’m planning to go see it first and make my own impressions then if we want to keep going will do the prebuy stuff ........ Thank you for the advise !

[Wildhorsesracing]

I bought mine in the same exact condition 6 yrs ago, after an extensive $5k annual it was airworthy and has been a diamond in the rough ever since.  You can always add stuff later and do all of the upgrades when you have time and funds.   And just think, the longer you wait for the upgrades the more bang for your $ you'll get.   Just a few years ago ADS-B systems were over $20k each and now they are under $5k - so the longer you wait the more features you'll get for the same money.  So why pay for an airplane that has yesterday's technology?

[AlexLev]

27 minutes ago, airbusflyboy said:

Yea could all be true ........ Cylinders were pulled and cam and other internals checked for pitting / rust , none found . I’m planning to go see it first and make my own impressions then if we want to keep going will do the prebuy stuff ........ Thank you for the advise !

I wouldn't trust it and if I bought it, I would make sure I had the resources to overhaul an engine the next day if necessary.

[Wildhorsesracing]

30 minutes ago, airbusflyboy said:

Yea could all be true ........ Cylinders were pulled and cam and other internals checked for pitting / rust , none found . I’m planning to go see it first and make my own impressions then if we want to keep going will do the prebuy stuff ........ Thank you for the advise !

Mine was the same way, 165 hrs later she still runs smooth as silk, get a good oil analysis for the 1st couple of oil changes and only worry if it starts making metal.

[DXB]

I think much of the trepidation around a Mooney that has sat for 10 years has been expressed nicely in the below thread, along with some guidance on how to get one going again.  Even with no corrosion on the tubular frame and wing spar, its a huge gamble to pay more than scrap value for one of these.  

 

[Yetti]

Engines even from the factory are a crapshoot.  There have been many factory engines that need work 300 hours after leaving the factory.  A factory reman is a combination of old parts that was still in spec.  There is a time period of early 90s to early 2000s that cams were not so well done.

Make sure the spar has no corrosion.  Look into the wheel wells, under the rear seat.  See if the tubing has had the SB done on it. 

Buy it thinking you will spend 10K on it and fly it, it will put a smile on your face. these are simple machines.  Nothing hard to fix on them.

 

[kerry]

If the price is right then take a gamble and do it.  Maybe it will turn into a real gem.

[gsxrpilot]

If you've got $50K in cash to work with... and you can pick this up for sub $10K... and you don't mind taking a gamble... do it. 

If it will take all of (or even 50%) of your cash to acquire this... you can't afford it and should run away.

*credit can be given for holding an A&P license, with additional credit if retired with unlimited time on your hands.

[airbusflyboy]

UPDATE : I saw the project Mooney yesterday guys ! Took some pix , looked over logs , crawled around the airplane , it’s very straight no dents or dings or scratches , outstanding paint job from early 2000’s , looks like it needs landing gear donuts soon , interior dated from possibly 70’s but very serviceable , glass very good , engine compartment very clean and tidy but did not remove the upper cowl , chromed cylinders on mid time engine , Hartzell prop , it is missing the very first airframe log from 1962 but picks back up in 1967 , very well documented other than missing first logbook , local maintenance shop can pore over the airplane for me at $75 per hour ....... I told the guy assisting with the sale that I’ve had lots of good advice from you here , they believe it is priced  accordingly at $21,000 even though it’s out of annual for 9 years , I’m not sure that’s a good price in this status ........ What say you ?

[Yetti]

Has the tubular frame SB been done?  What does the spar look like under the rear seat?  Also the furtherthest back most inboard inspection plates on the underside of the wing should be inspected for spark corrosion.   How are the mouse boots?  how does it look behind the lower panels on the inside?  Fuel leaks or mouse nests.  Fill the tanks and wait 24 hours to see if they leak

[EricJ]

Without an inspection I think you're taking a lot of risk for $21k.   Even if it inspects well (including everything Yetti just mentioned plus the engine, tires, etc., etc., etc.), you'll be taking some risk.

I wouldn't necessarily run away, but I'd proceed with caution.

Pics?

[gsxrpilot]

Look at it this way...  An M20C in beautiful flying condition with and updated panel including WAAS GPS, Autopilot (Stec30), ADSB, etc, mid-time engine, current pucks, updated paint and recent interior, etc, with a current annual and regularly flown will be worth $55K.

A very basic but airworthy M20C with current annual and regular flying, is worth $35K max.

You're at $21K now.  And you need the following...

Engine overhaul - $25K minimum. Mid-time is irrelevant here, if it's been sitting for nine years it is extremely unlikely that it is airworthy. And without an overhaul, it's virtually impossible to know if it is or not.
Landing gear pucks - $1500 installed.
Annual to bring everything up to airworthy - $10K (unlikely to be less than this on a plane sitting this long) You'll need all the hoses, tires, other rubber bits, a full cage inspection, spar inspection, lube, and a lot of other stuff I'm forgetting.
WAAS GPS - $10K installed (used 430W)
Autopilot - $20K installed
ADSB - $5K installed
Interior - $7K
Paint - $10K

So if you ignore the panel, avionics, and keep the vintage interior and paint... but just bring it to current airworthy condition, you'll have a $30-$35K airplane. But it will take you $55K to $57K to get there.

There is a chance, although exceedingly rare, that this is a "diamond in the rough". But it will cost you at minimum $21K + 5 to 10K to find out. at that point you've spent $30K already and you could have just bought one that is known at that price. 

If the currently owner thinks it's worth something, then they can prove it by getting it annualed at a reputable shop. They don't need to put any money into upgrades, just get it airworthy and fly it for a few hours. Otherwise, it's not worth more than $10K.

 

[Andy95W]

If you are an A&P, or are going to be working closely with an A&P, and you're willing to invest a lot of man hours, then this could be a way to get a decent airplane and defer a lot of the upgrade cost to the future.  

Or you could take out a loan and buy the $55k M20C like Paul mentioned above, pay the interest, and defer the upgrade cost to the future.

Either way you'll spend about $70,000 for a $55,000 airplane.  The second way requires less time from you, but you won't know the airplane as well when you're done with it.

[1964-M20E]

I agree $21k maybe slightly high for this aircraft.  However like others have said get a good inspection on it looking specifically for corrosion.  If the air frame is good then you have a good starting point to build yourself a decent plane.  Keep in mind a quick build kit for a VANS 2 place will run you over $30k and $50 to $60k for an RV10 and you have way more work than what you will put into this one and you get to do some flying in between.

Work with the seller on deductions from the $21k to get it airworthy i.e. annual inspection, about $1,600 (inspection only), all ADs addressed, gear retract system minimal slop in busing etc., flight controls true, correct and minimal slop in the rods and hinges, and fix any true airworthy issues.  Things that just don't make it safe in the air.  Yes there will be plenty of small squawks that you will want to fix but when doing an annul you need to separate the ones that keep it form flying and the ones that are just a nuisance to be fixed.

As for the engine put a new oil and filter run for 10 to 15 hours and check then a couple cycles at 25 hours and then to a normal 50 hours for oil changes and inspections.  Keep an eye on it and run it until it tells you it is ready to retire.  Just plan on an overhaul being anywhere from the first 100 hours or until whenever.  You have pulled a cylinder and no signs of corrosion on the cam and the cylinders look good.  Any used plane is a crap shoot. 

After about a year of flying it 2 to 3 hours every weekend and getting to know the plane well.  Plan your upgrades to match how you are flying and what you are using it for.

Good luck and I hope you get the plane back in the air.

 

 

[Jim Peace]

3 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Either way you'll spend about $70,000 for a $55,000 airplane.  

I wish I had that deal.

[lamont337]

Not every plane that has been sitting is scrap and not every engine that has been sitting needs an overhaul, my plane is proof of that. It flew less than 100 hours in the decade before purchase and the engine is running strong 400 hours later. Or at least regular oil changes, filter inspections and oil analysis seem to indicate as such. Your mileage may vary wildly of course.

Were my maintenance costs initially higher? Perhaps, but how do we really quantify this? And if my engine started making metal tomorrow would I still blame it on sitting? Am I out of that danger zone? What if I only get to 1900 hours? Have I had more luck than the majority of folks who buy older planes? Who knows.

[steingar]

The OP is nucking futz. Last Mooney I saw in the 20s was perfectly fine except and outstandingly poor paint job.  Were I an A&P I’d take this on for whatever it is worth in scrap value (for comparison I saw a perfectly fine Cessna 310 go for 24 AMU’s, and it had a perfectly workable 430 in the panel). Were I not an A&P I wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot anything.  I think the one exception to this is if you have lots of spare time and energy, don’t mind working hard (anathema to the Steingar), and have an A&P who really likes you, this could make sense. But not at $21k. Ask Alan Fox what he says it’s worth in scrap, and pay not one dime more.  And only do that if ALL the conditions I mentioned are in effect. A member here did this and got a good inexpensive aircraft out of the deal.

Me, it think it’s nuts. Lots of serviceable Mooney’s out there for not that much money. No one needs to mess with a hangar queen.

[airbusflyboy]

All very good wisdom and advice , truly appreciated to all of you ! I’m considering letting the local on field maimtenance shop get involved and look it over hard , it’ll cost me some bucks but will get me closer to a decision , right now I’ve seen it and cost me a days time spent traveling back and forth but it was very informative and worth the trip .......... Another area mechanic told me a story of an owner of a 1967 Mooney spending $32,000 to get that one back in flying condition after a 10 year hiatus from sitting .......... 

A couple other things I forgot to mention on this 1962 Mooney ........ I noticed that the control yokes were sitting with a slight tilt to the right and of course the corresponding ailerons were deflected as such , I noted from moving the yoke around that this condition seemed to be static , iow, the yokes returned to rest in this slight right position , not centered ......... Is this a rigging issue ? Also , there is NO spin on oil filter only the oil screen .

What specific inspections do you guys recommend by this maintenance shop ? I’m reading a lot here about checking tubing , spars , corrosion ? Is the fact that the number one logbook is missing a real big deal according to negotiating the price ? 

 

Edited May 25, 2018 by airbusflyboy

[steingar]

Says the mighty Steingar an airplane a decade out of airworthiness is worth its value in scrap and not one dime more. If the sellers want more then going forward on any basis is a waste of time and money. And do keep in mind that this machine is expected to safeguard the lives of you and your loved ones.