RedSkyFlyer Posted May 12, 2018 Report Posted May 12, 2018 I’ve been considering owning a Mooney for a while and now this Rocket has come back on sale here in the UK, I was gutted when it went under offer the first time, now it’s back on I don’t want to missing out again. Can anyone out these give me a good reason not to sign the dotted line?! I’m hours away from buying this 252 with the Rocket conversion. Last minute advice would be appreciated. Mission: 10-15 Uk-Central Europe PA + Local flights. Mainly tarmac with ocational grass including Lessay & Caen-Falaise in Normandy, France. Experience: PPL + 50 hours. KMA 242 X GNS 430KFC 150GTX 330KR 87KN 62AGarmin G500s Video: 1 Quote
xcrmckenna Posted May 12, 2018 Report Posted May 12, 2018 Get a good prebuy and find out why the sale didn’t go through. If I had a chance to get a Rocket I would jump on it in a heart beat!!!!!! 1 Quote
M20C_AV8R Posted May 12, 2018 Report Posted May 12, 2018 making an offer subject to all proper inspections, pre-buy etc before finalizing the purchase is the way to go, best of luck, nice bird Quote
RedSkyFlyer Posted May 12, 2018 Author Report Posted May 12, 2018 Too many pros, I need some cons! Thanks for the feedback, the sale failed to go through as supposedly the European buyer paid a deposit and has since been trying to negotiate a further discount from the vendor. Quote
bradp Posted May 12, 2018 Report Posted May 12, 2018 Get some mooney specific training. It’s a lot of capability for PPL+50 hrs. Caution hypoxia if you’re flying up there. 3 Quote
Warren Posted May 12, 2018 Report Posted May 12, 2018 It looks nicely equipped and in good shape cosmetically. Of course a PPI will tell all - hopefully, about the potential hidden expenses. Then it all comes down to price. As far as experience. I bought a M20K 231 with a total of about 80 hours in 172's. It was a steep learning curve moving from a 172. At the time I thought a Bravo or Rocket were too much plane and decided to go with lower performance. I love the turbo and the high altitude capability as I live in Denver and the mountains are part of many of my flights. I will likely move up eventually. Looking back, a 231 was a big step but the incremental step to a higher power plane is pretty small. The challenges with a Mooney are getting ahead of the plane during descents and not running over slower traffic. Of course there is lots of talk about landing. As everyone will tell you - get good instruction and landing really isn't that hard. Start with longer runways, make sure you aren't too fast and hold it off until it is ready to land. The main difference is more power for takeoff, more torque to manage, faster climb,... But, you then have the option to take advantage of the power and travel faster --- this is why we fly Mooneys. If it looks like a good deal I would say go for it. I'll trade you for a 231 if it scares you and you change your mind Get good transition instruction, be a little careful to not fly beyond your limits and go have a blast in your new toy! Quote
Bravoman Posted May 13, 2018 Report Posted May 13, 2018 I wouldn’t until you have more experience. Everyone is different and I am real conservative with this kind of stuff but these planes can get away from you right quick even with far more hours than you have under your belt. I only have experience in the Bravo so far as Mooneys are concerned but I would imagine the rocket isn’t very dissimilar. Might it work out for you, sure, but better safe than sorry. 2 Quote
Yooper Rocketman Posted May 13, 2018 Report Posted May 13, 2018 I’m with Bravoman. That’s a lot of airplane for a low time pilot. If you move forward with this purchase I would recommend you fly with a qualified pilot for the first 50 hours to help with the transition. Do you possess an IFR Rating? That training could be combined with your transition training. We lost a well liked member here a few years ago after his transition to a Rocket with less than typical experience (more than you have indicated). I read on another blog about a fatal TBM accident recently with the similar circumstances; pilot moving up too quick and getting behind the plane in weather that was not forgiving. It can be done safely with the right steps. Be careful. Tom 3 Quote
RedSkyFlyer Posted May 13, 2018 Author Report Posted May 13, 2018 Really appreciate all the comments folks. Most powerful thing I’ve flow thus far is the Arrow turbo which I didn’t exactly find unmanageable, perhaps the 305 is an overkill short term but a great aircraft to hold as an investment and grow into with time? I don’t plan to go upsize so this in theory would be the one and only. Are there any common faults/weakness one should spotlight in the PPI? Another question I had was whether anyone has experience with the rocket on grass and whether there are any upgrades to make her more suitable? Also interested to know how she handles on a slow, more scenic mission. Bravoman & Rocketman, to put your minds at ease, before going solo in the Mooney Ive been offered a weekend tour with the current owner & was planning to take two weeks out for an intensive course (75-100hr) with a qualified Mooney instructor down in quiet Devon, land at as many runway European airfields as possible to get a real feel for her. IFR is definately on the cards. Any additional feedback on how to handle the extra power would be much appreciated Quote
Yooper Rocketman Posted May 13, 2018 Report Posted May 13, 2018 With the extra 100+ pounds on the nose and less prop clearance, I don’t recommend grass strips. I did one trip into a grass strip with light fuel, max baggage compartment weight (specifically placed for THAT trip) and no passenger going in, a passenger in the BACK SEAT coming out, and decided I would never do that again. That was 16 years ago. I taxi on hard surfaces with the yoke full aft due to the susceptibility of the prop coming too close to the ground on any bumps. If your nose pucks are over 5 years old they should be replaced. 800-1,000 hours on turbo should be a planned R&R for overhaul. 500 hours on the mags.....same thing. Check for wear of the heat muff on the front exhaust “Y”. I use “exhaust /header wrap” around the pipes to stop wear of the heat shield on the pipes. Your engine is a 1600 hour TBO, but run right many will see 2,000 hours (I’m nearly 2,100). The updraft intake on the TSIO520NB is challenging to run LOP. At ROP, normal cruise will be 19-20 GPH. If you’re not flying 11k up into the Flight Levels, you’re really not gaining the advantages of the turbo and speed vs. the fuel flow. You can fly it slow for sight seeing but won’t see fuel flows like a 4 cylinder non-turbo. Fuel in the U.S. is cheap relative to Europe so the fuel efficiency for us is not going to be the same consideration for those across the pond. Tom 2 Quote
M016576 Posted May 13, 2018 Report Posted May 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Yooper Rocketman said: I’m with Bravoman. That’s a lot of airplane for a low time pilot. If you move forward with this purchase I would recommend you fly with a qualified pilot for the first 50 hours to help with the transition. Do you possess an IFR Rating? That training could be combined with your transition training. We lost a well liked member here a few years ago after his transition to a Rocket with less than typical experience (more than you have indicated). I read on another blog about a fatal TBM accident recently with the similar circumstances; pilot moving up too quick and getting behind the plane in weather that was not forgiving. It can be done safely with the right steps. Be careful. Tom Currently- In the USAF and USN, the first airplane you fly after a 172-ish type airplane (of which you accumulate about 20 hours of flight time) is a 250KIAS turbo-prop. After about 70hours in that, you transition to a 400KIAS turbo jet. in my training pipeline back in the 90’s/early 2000’s: we did our very first flights in the T-34C... a 230KIAS turbo prop. Of course... it’s one thing if it’s a hobby... it’s another thing entirely when that’s your job.... so I guess the answer I’d say is this: if you plan to make a rapid transition- then you’d best treat the flying like its your job, or you might end up paying the consequences. 2 Quote
carusoam Posted May 13, 2018 Report Posted May 13, 2018 Summary... 1) A Rocket is a great Long distance, traveling, bird, in the right hands... 2) A PPI is the best protection for your wallet... writing a purchase agreement is a great way to organize the deal... 3A) With low time, the Transition Training is incredibly important... 3B) With High time, the Transition Training is very important... 4) Have you asked for an insurance quote yet? Insurance companies are notable for putting the kai-bosh on purchases like this. 5) We have seen a few accidents over the years... the most painful memories are the young guys that worked really hard, but didn’t fill the experience bucket before the luck bucket ran low... 6) Is this a pro-pilot familiar with Transition Training moving up the ladder stepwise to the next level...? 7) Familiar with the training required to get to this level? 8) Ever hand the keys of a Mustang 5.0 to a responsible 17yr old? 9) Buying a plane the first time... you can be 50 years old with a lot of life experience... and the behavior Of a 17yr old with the keys to a new mustang... will be on your back for some time... 10) Anything Worth Doing is Worth Doing right. 11) If money is important to you... To Skip half of the training time and money.... start with an entry level Mooney... 12) If your pockets are full up... expect the first year to include some heavy expensive training... 13) There isn’t much sense to have a 252 and no place to go... 14) There is plenty of sense to have a 252, an IR, be fully trained and fly internationally in the FLs 15) Doing it safely is going to take time, money, and training to get the experience... 16) Ask Andrew @Hyett6420 what it’s like flying a Mooney around the UK and the rest of Europe... he does it in a killer M20J! 17) Expect a very steep learning curve. Great, if you really like to learn.... This list was built from the people above.... a flight instructor, a military pilot, a plane builder, and few private pilots... Aside from all that....Now, go get the ball in motion.... proceed with caution. Get to know some Mooney people. Do some Mooney reading. How is that for motivation, with a side of seriousness? Best regards, -a- 5 Quote
RedSkyFlyer Posted May 13, 2018 Author Report Posted May 13, 2018 (edited) Hmmm, I’m wondering whether I’m not biting off too much at once. I have the time to commit to training given my experience would I be better in an old bee or cirrus? Speaking opening, my circumstances maybe different to most; I’m 26, successfully sold my business in Dec, getting married next July and looking forward to enjoying these next 12 months free time. Seemed like the ultimate project/cloud dream.. There aren’t that many Mooney for sale in Europe boasting such acionics & upkeep, when I saw this 252 it seems like a great option. Is there any way to find out a bit more history about when the rocket conversion took place and what the standard shell was before hand, previous previous owner, hangaged etc? Option 3) I continue to lease the Arrow from the club but safety wise the thing I’m falling apart on its own, I can always return to the market in a couple of years. Thank you all for the welcome into the forum! Steve Edited May 13, 2018 by RedSkyFlyer Quote
Danb Posted May 13, 2018 Report Posted May 13, 2018 If the Rocket passes the ppi purchase it, get quality training, then you’ll have a generational aircraft Quote
Yooper Rocketman Posted May 13, 2018 Report Posted May 13, 2018 2 hours ago, RedSkyFlyer said: Hmmm, I’m wondering whether I’m not biting off too much at once. I have the time to commit to training given my experience would I be better in an old bee or cirrus? Speaking opening, my circumstances maybe different to most; I’m 26, successfully sold my business in Dec, getting married next July and looking forward to enjoying these next 12 months free time. Seemed like the ultimate project/cloud dream.. If you take the ownership on like our military pilot did, like "it's your job", the transition is doable. The IFR ticket should be part of that plan. Do you have the discipline to know and understand your limitations to keep yourself from getting in over your head before your experience and skill levels meet the capabilities of the airplane? Only you can answer that question honestly. If you do then maybe this would work. The old saying is pretty appropriate with this situation. You hope your "experience bucket" fills up before your "luck bucket" is emptied". If you take a conservative approach to your flying this COULD be safely done. 2 hours ago, RedSkyFlyer said: There aren’t that many Mooney for sale in Europe boasting such avionics & upkeep, when I saw this 252 it seems like a great option. Is there any way to find out a bit more history about when the rocket conversion took place and what the standard shell was before hand, previous previous owner, hangaged etc? The history would need to come from the current owner (and maybe the logbooks). Not sure what relevance the timing on the Rocket conversion has. They converted these over a relatively short time, and ceased doing the conversion quite a few years ago. The "standard shell" was a 252, likely a fairly stock one. Again, log books will tell that story. I love my Rocket, have had it for 17 years, and there are few Mooney's that would be a serious improvement to it in performance (especially in it's price range). It IS a lot more airplane than your typical trainer or very next level up. If you accept that and RESPECT that (get the training and invest the hours to get proficient), your dream is not unrealistic. Just be safe about it! Tom 3 Quote
carusoam Posted May 13, 2018 Report Posted May 13, 2018 Steve, It isn’t the aircraft.... Mooney, Beech, or Cirri... Its the ability to cross multiple time zones in a single flight... using the flight levels The more powerful and complex the aircraft is, the more the pilot has to be experienced about sifting through the reams of data that are being thrown at you... continuously... The newbie pilot errors are typically VFR flight into IMC and running out of fuel... The experienced pilot runs into thunderstorms and icing conditions... Its the level of experience needed to avoid running into these situations. Read up on the accident reports to see where the pilots got into situations and became overwhelmed... The tragedies are usually a chain of events. The good news.... Breaking a single link, the chain stops... Examples of taking too many steps at one time... (are you familiar with baseball?) Catfish hunter, a low time pilot moved up to a private jet. Ended in tragedy... Cory Lidel, a low time pilot. Stalled a plane that had a safety parachute and flight instructor on board. Ended in tragedy... Roy Haladay, low time pilot. Crashed a plane that was designed to be stall resistant. Ended in tragedy... many accident reports have the last conversation with air traffic control recorded... you can literally hear the voice of the pilot in trouble. It takes more than following instructions. It takes Knowing when following instructions will lead to tragedy... a recent cirrus tragedy occurred when a Cirrus pilot followed the control tower’s advice to keep within a boundary... too much bank, too little speed... fatal accident... Around here, many people have reported starting with their private pilot license, near 100hrs experience, and then acquiring an M20C, F or J... then move up to their preferred next level... A few have purchased a Mooney to train in for their PPL. This skips some of the broader experience that is afforded by a trainer. At least one has purchased a Long body to train in... Everyone finds a level where the fun of flying gets removed... a powerful traveling machine can get you to that level quicker than anything else.... As a younger guy... I looked out with dissapointment... It looked like it would take ten years to get to the level I wanted to be at right then... Now, it’s been 20years... Went from renting Cessnas to owning an M20C for a decade... now an Ovation... To avoid getting overwhelmed... take it in steps... keep both eyes open... be ready to turn 180° Using a low bank angle, and get more fuel... check the weather again... practice telling people you are unable to be there until tomorrow... PP thoughts only. Sharing only a single life of experience. Not a CFI or statistician... Best regards, -a- 3 Quote
carusoam Posted May 13, 2018 Report Posted May 13, 2018 Plot your progression against some other MS pilots.... Many MSers include the chain of airplanes they have owner flown, or fly for work or have in the hangar next door... right in their avatar... There is a thread around here that includes all the military aircraft that Some MSers have flown.... it’s inevitable... Some people graduate out the top of MS... they move onto six seaters, or twins, a couple have gone turbine..... Some graduate, but stay here and continue to share experience.... Go MS! And Stay MS! Best regards, -a- 2 Quote
Warren Posted May 13, 2018 Report Posted May 13, 2018 Allow me to add to my statement. I bought a 231 with 80 hours in Cessnas. But,... I did the transition training, asked lots of questions, was diligent about studying and educating myself on the airplane and did lots of landings and approaches. I only flew extreme VFR as a new Mooney pilot and did not attempt short runways. I very quickly started my IFR and basically learned a huge amount with lots of instruction and supervision while learning to fly IFR and learning to fly my plane. Now with my IFR rating and over 250 hours I am very comfortable with the plane. Still not super comfortable in IFR but that is another topic and I need a lot more experience. In the end, I had 60-70 hours of time flying with an instructor as I learned to fly the plane and went through the steep learning curve. I bought the plane with the intent of getting IFR rated in my own plane. It is a huge step up (yours will be bigger than mine). If you get lots of instruction and treat it with respect you can do it. Be ready to invest the time and the money to keep yourself safe. I like the above post about treating it like a job. I flew 2-3x per week with my instructor and this really helped me get comfortable with checklists and as well as the constant discussions about emergencies and “what if.” You have to judge if you have the discipline and caution to become a safe pilot in.a high performance airplane. It can very quickly get away from you as it is really fast and takes a lot more planning. It can also get you up high where you run into all kinds of new challenges. There are some 17 yr olds that shouldn’t ever get a Mustang at 17 or anytime in their life. However, there are some that are responsible and respect performance. It is a very person dependent thing. Be brutally honest with yourself about how you learn, your ability to be conservative and your reactions to unplanned excitement. Your life depends on your ability to keep yourself safe. Good luck with your decision and be safe. 3 Quote
TWinter Posted May 13, 2018 Report Posted May 13, 2018 FWIW.. I have a E model. I'm a VFR guy working on my IFR. I now have a little over 400 hrs in my E. As a old pilot who only had about 80 hrs when I got back in the saddle after 20+ years layoff the E was plenty of bird for me to handle and took time to get warm and fuzzy with. I'm now shopping again and have been looking at light twins or stepping my game up in the Mooney world. I also have my eye on a Rocket (not the one you are looking at..lol). Even with 400 hrs in my E I think it will take a lot of transition time for me to feel as good in the Rocket as I do in the E. I'm raising the bar for myself....you are really raising the bar. I'm sure you can do it..just take your time and plan well ahead. I wish you luck, I don't know your ability and skills, but really think it over, that's a lot of plane to jump into. I figure it will take me 30-50+ hrs to get that warm and fuzzy feeling in the Rocket and that is being on the conservative side with lots of practice. I fly weekly even if it's just around the pattern a few laps. Sometimes it's a hassle to drive to the airport, get the plane out, fueled up etc. for just a few laps, but practice, practice and more practice. Much more than 10 days lay-off and I feel I get sloppy. -Tom Quote
aviatoreb Posted May 13, 2018 Report Posted May 13, 2018 (edited) Hi Redskyflyer. Some were referring here to Houman, who had gotten into a rocket as a relatively new pilot. And the outcome was eventually tragic, but in part it was perhaps too much of a handful of an airplane for him, and in part perhaps it was bad decision making on that last short hop of a flight, which also comes with experience but also attitude. Houman was my friend, lived relatively close by, and as a fellow rocket owner we exchanged emails often, besides having met. Probably the transition you intend can be made, but as many have said, must be done in a fully professional manner if you wish to use the military example as a standard. That said, Job please speak up, doesn't the military have a standard of difficult performance checks and if you cannot pass at each stage you "wash out"? I had a friend and fellow faculty member when I was at USNA, who was a Marine officer, who had started in the Navy flight program but was unable to master carrier landings sufficiently well, so he was transitioned to other activities in the Marines. Also in general, for all pilots, I had a real eye opener flight just shy of just two weeks ago. I had a very serious emergency, and knock on wood, I handled it well with no one hurt and no bent metal even. It is not just how you can handle the airplane when things are going well, on a perfect vfr day, but how you can handle the airplane when things are going badly. I had an engine out - ugh! - but happily I found and landed on a runway dead stick. Thank goodness that did not happen when I was a newbie in this machine. The idea is not to fall to pieces in your flying when things are going bad, and somehow everything is happening very fast in your mind with adrenaline dumping into your heart and your head is spinning but you must concentrate to stay on task and carrying out in a deliberate manner every single thing that must happen and still also fly the airplane properly. But I did transition to the rocket with already 350 hours in my previous airplane, the Diamond DA40, and an IFR ticket for some time, and even still, I remember the first several hours thinking to myself, ghee whiz what the heck did I get myself into this thing is a handful. Insurance required 15 hours of transition flying with a CFI. Now flying round in the old bird it feels like an old pair of sneakers familiar. Not to say that every flight is not a serious business and to stay attentive, as my experience two weeks ago has reminded me and I think about every day right now... I had a lovely flight this weekend with my son - so serene and beautiful. I have owned my rocket for a little over 9 years. The rocket is a really beautiful machine. The one you are looking at looks especially nice. If you can afford it, and you like that particular one, then by all means, I would not suggest not to get it but the advice here is good. Edited May 13, 2018 by aviatoreb 1 Quote
donkaye Posted May 13, 2018 Report Posted May 13, 2018 The Rocket is an interesting airplane. I've trained numerous pilots in them. They climb better than the Bravo. Really it is a 2 person airplane. It has a screwy weight and balance envelope that makes flying 3 or more people impractical legally, since the fuel capacity is greatly reduced to stay within the envelope. With proper training a low time pilot can transition to the higher performance airplanes reasonably easily. I have found it easier to transition low time pilots because they are more willing to listen to experience than higher time pilots who think they know it all--but don't. The plane does go fast but sucks up a lot of fuel in doing so. Having had a Bravo for almost 26 years now, I prefer that airplane and the other long body planes over the Rocket. The above comments (for what they're worth) are the results of 11,000 GA hours flying time 9,200 of which are in all types of Mooneys and over 6,000 hours of instruction given over the past 25 years. 6 1 Quote
PTK Posted May 13, 2018 Report Posted May 13, 2018 A "conversion" does not hold its value as well as a factory Mooney. Also it has to be an exceptional airplane to even consider it over a factory airplane. I'm not certain that the Rocket is that exceptional for reasons already mentioned. Considering your mission, have you considered an Ovation2? Quote
aviatoreb Posted May 13, 2018 Report Posted May 13, 2018 23 minutes ago, PTK said: A "conversion" does not hold its value as well as a factory Mooney. Also it has to be an exceptional airplane to even consider it over a factory airplane. I'm not certain that the Rocket is that exceptional for reasons already mentioned. Considering your mission, have you considered an Ovation2? An ovation is a superb airplane. Watching Bravo prices, which seem surprisingly low, I would say that for the age of the airframes, that Bravos and rockets seem comparable for holding value. That said, I don't think any airplanes hold much value. We buy them to use and enjoy rather than as investments. Operating expenses are so high that one should in my opinion buy the one they want rather than thinking of holding value. Also, re an airplane like a rocket, or anything else, presumably when you buy it today the market has already hit the value of that plane so that when/if you want to sell it you loose value relative to whatever you bought it for. E.g., I see rockets today selling for exactly the same sticker price on controller as they were selling for when I purchased my rocket 9 years ago. Quote
aviatoreb Posted May 13, 2018 Report Posted May 13, 2018 1 hour ago, donkaye said: The Rocket is an interesting airplane. I've trained numerous pilots in them. They climb better than the Bravo. Really it is a 2 person airplane. It has a screwy weight and balance envelope that makes flying 3 or more people impractical legally, since the fuel capacity is greatly reduced to stay within the envelope. With proper training a low time pilot can transition to the higher performance airplanes reasonably easily. I have found it easier to transition low time pilots because they are more willing to listen to experience than higher time pilots who think they know it all--but don't. The plane does go fast but sucks up a lot of fuel in doing so. Having had a Bravo for almost 26 years now, I prefer that airplane and the other long body planes over the Rocket. The above comments (for what they're worth) are the results of 11,000 GA hours flying time 9,200 of which are in all types of Mooneys and over 6,000 hours of instruction given over the past 25 years. Don, your knock that it is a nose heavy airplane is correct, but it can be corrected - my rocket has a very balanced w&b now that I have had the MT prop on the nose for about 3 years. It saved 35lbs off the nose. For fun, check out what such a change does to a w&b. It is now an honest light in pitch airplane and I would swear I am flying a lighter airplane. The change is dramatic. 2 Quote
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