Raptor

[ChrisV]

8 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I feel for the guy, but I think he's in over his head on this one.

I had real high hopes for this aircraft even though I have no skin in the game.  But after watching all of his flights, I don't think he is a capable enough test pilot or engineer for this.  THIS WAS SCARY TO WATCH!   The lack of stability is crazy.  I wonder if a longer fuselage would help.  And what are they doing to counter the engine torque?  I haven't heard of anything, but I haven't watched every video.

Damn I wish they would get this right.

 

[afward]

7 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

if you aren’t telling him what he wants to hear, he isn’t listening. There have been a few knowledgeable people I’ve heard that can’t deal with him.

I think Elliot Seguin nailed it: To get a from-scratch project to that level of completion requires a personality that is very independent and ignores the nay-sayers.  To have it be successful requires a balanced approach of knowing to heed the nay-sayers' advice.

The implication of course being that Peter doesn't have enough of the latter.

[afward]

5 hours ago, carusoam said:

I send nearly 50% more FF through my 310hp engine near 29gph 100LL than the Raptor was burning, 21gph...

Sure diesel has a higher energy density than gasoline does... a few percentage points... to get great fuel mileage out of a Diesel engine it takes a team of engineers working extra hours... And even the VW guys couldn’t do it like they said they could... (oops)

21 gph of diesel (roughly the same weight as JetA) and 400 hp works out to a BSFC of .350 lb/hp-hr.  That's pretty much in-range (slightly high) for a modern diesel, so I don't doubt the numbers are correct (or at least reasonably close).

By comparison, your 310 hp engine has a BSFC of .555 lb/hp-hr at full power (std conditions).  Turns out using fuel to cool the cylinders is quite inefficient...  Compression ratio also has a massive role to play there.

[steingar]

He's got a Velocity with a car engine conversion.  Nothing out of the box or revolutionary.  I hope he doesn't kill himself with this thing, but I suspect he will.  Those stability problems aren't going to go away by raising the gear.  And the airport surroundings looked awfully unforgiving.

[carusoam]

There was a change of Ian into the mix...

The latest one, where they are doing the test flights from is way more realistic than The original one selected...

Still people didn’t like the idea of planning to use the highway as a good idea...

There is a bit of hopeful wishful thinking going on... or just for the presentation?

 

Looks like he is looking into another round of test pilot involvement and possibly financing to cover the additional costs...

The Wasabi team seemed too far away to make things economical...
 

This is a shoe string budget compared to other projects...

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[Guitarmaster]

That video was pretty hard to watch. If you remember back when the model was flying, it had a bad dutch roll tendency at slow speeds. Peter attempted to solve this with vortilons and stretching the fuselage. From what I saw in the video, the airspeed never reached above about 125, so to me, the airplane is acting very much like the model.

As I was watching this, I could not help but think I was watching a canard stall. The fact that the airplane is considerably heavier than projected design weight and the slow speed that he flew it at, lead me to believe this. Last week I got to fly my first canard and did several stalls. That's exactly what it looked like to me. On his YouTube channel, there are many comments about the size and shape of the canard and how sensitive that actually is. Personally, I think the problem is in the canard design. More than likely, it's too big.

I have been following this project from the beginning and I'm number 540 on the list. I'm an entrepreneur, dreamer and tinkerer by nature, so this project is right up my alley, but I'm 50 years old and I have no doubt that I will never see this aircraft on my ramp as i think he's going to have some major redesign to make the aircraft stable.

It has been very cool to watch the progress from idea, to CAD, to producing parts, to Flying aircraft. That in and of itself is something that very few can say they accomplished. So to that, I say congratulations Peter! I sincerely hope you can get this thing operating as you first dreamed it!



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[jetdriven]

regarding stability, It can be a lot of things, like canard incidence.   or the canard airfoil. But he has several grave issues such as being overweight, underpowered, overheating....it's just this guy has pursued this project way too far. And seldom does the guy who engineers everything posses  the right test pilot skills to actually fly it as well, there's a different skill sets and I do not know how many people actually have that.

All these guys with auto engine conversions,  and every damn one of them seems has overheating and other serious issues. Maybe we can just admit and be honest with ourselves that aircraft engines are designed for aircraft, and auto engines are designed for automobiles, and without basically a complete redesign,  those two are different requirements and different designs and have no overlap.

 

We should call this aircraft Mizar 2.0..  or Bonney Gull 2.0...It's going to end the same or in a similar way. That thread on Beechtalk said this 4 years ago..  Physics and math are hard, but not that hard. there is no way to deliver 230KT on  7GPH and 130K.  pick any one, but not two and certainly not all three.

[Jim Peace]

You guys suck....at least he is trying....who on here has designed, built and flown your own airplane?  Who?

This is the process and how it will be unless any of you engineers want to quit your job and do this work for free.....

I know it goes against the grain here but I hope he succeeds and you all sell your Mooneys for a raptor someday....

I am sure every plane in history never had first flight test issues....

rant off...going swimming.....

[jetdriven]

Well, if you believe in fairytales, then preach on about how an airplane that bigger than other currently flying aircraft and has a smaller engine, but somehow  will be pressurized and fly much faster and much further on less gas. It’s simple physics here and the reason why none of us attempted it before is because it’s not possible with today’s technology.  Now go look at the Mizar and the Bonney Gull and even the Bugatti 100P, you’ll see some striking parallels here. They don’t end well, but there is still time for him. I would say probably the first thing to do is change test pilots, because this guy is too emotionally invested in it and when the time comes to bail out of it or cowboy it in, or whatever, he’s gonna think about how much money is going to cost him, and how far back to project is getting setback. Hesitation kills. And I’m not even sure if he has that good of a background in test pilot flying.   To the real professional test pilot it’s just a job...they  are separate specialties here, and he needs the best of each.  No no, I suck because I’m a Debbie downer, I’m here telling you that night follows day

[DanM20C]

3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

downer

I misread that and thought you said "owner".  For a minute I thought you lost your mind and jumped ship to brand B. 

I was hoping better for Peter and the Raptor program.  But I didn't have high expectations.  I could never understand why he would pursue a clean sheet air-frame and power plant together.  Either be an aircraft designer/builder or engine designer/builder.  Very few (if any) in history has been able to pull both off.  At least at a level of complexity like the raptor.

Peter has done the impossible getting it this far.  It's damn admirable.  But I hope he enlists help for the next phase of testing and remains objective without emotion getting in the way.  I do have my doubts that the engine will ever be a success. 

Cheers,

Dan

 

 

 

[Niko182]

The raptor went down this mornong. Peter is alive but the plane looks pretty beat up.

[exM20K]

Another issue with the auto engine use:  auto manufacturers change and evolve their engine design, and when they do, you’re SOL.  Example is the 1.7L Thielert, which definitely had its share of problems (piston cooling nozzles and case cracks most prominently).  When Mercedes went to the 2.0 L architecture, these problems became basically un-fixable.

-dan

[carusoam]

Full grown corn makes a tough landing environment…

One wheel has been torn off…

Expect gear up, in corn, to be the best of two weevils….

 

Fortunate to not be upside down in the weeds… typical of a Mooney in corn…  the corn grabs  the gear, the corn is firmly anchored in a few pounds of soil… it doesn’t take many corn plants to slow the momentum of  the bottom of the plane, but not the tail….

Peter isn’t afraid to follow up with the good, the bad, and the ugly… of developing a plane singlehandedly…. Expect another YT video to follow…

Best regards,

-a-

[Niko182]

I think at this point, its worthwhile taking the insurance money, and calling it quits. Im not one to give up a project, but its a matter of time until someone gets hurt. That aircraft lacks overall stability in general. Add that to an unreliable engine, an obese aircraft, and the inability to actually complete any of the intended advertising points.

 

This was one of the better outcomes in my opinion.

[chriscalandro]

It was only a matter of time. Quite honestly I’m surprised it lasted as long as it did. 

[hammdo]

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/08/raptor-aircraft-n352td-incident.html

-Don

[EricJ]

15 minutes ago, hammdo said:

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/08/raptor-aircraft-n352td-incident.html

-Don

The comments are awesome.

 

[carusoam]

3 hours ago, EricJ said:

The comments are awesome.

 

I was once writing Peter a comment… about HP, acceleration, and T/O distances for Mooneys.

As he was comparing his ship’s performance to an M20J(?) he was using to keep current…

I don’t know if he was intentionally sand bagging…. Or if he wasn’t developing nearly enough HP to get his heavy plane off the ground… weeks and months went by…  it wasn’t sand bagging…

The fuel flow he was showing… wasn’t close to what he was describing for output… based on Mooney 200 and 310hp engines…. And FFs we discuss every day.

 

Then I ran into @mike_elliott who was also giving input from a different angle… about engine building and safety related issues… from car racing days.

Very big cooling related issues, HP issues, oil containment issues…

 

Not enough capital coming in to cover the multitude of iterations that are needed…

 

It is a great demonstration of how hard it is to develop a new plane… Even though it is a very similar design of somebody else’s plane…

 

How many times does a person play this game…?

Engine issues are easy to see and deal with over time…

I didn’t see any aerodynamics testing normal to a flight test…. Slow flight, or stalls….

 

PP thoughts only, not a airplane development guru…

Best regards,

-a-

[Niko182]

2 minutes ago, carusoam said:

It is a great demonstration of how hard it is to develop a new plane…

I can honestly agree with this a lot, however if you're not willing to learn or not going to take advise from knowledgable people, its you're own fault. He downplayed a lot of issues the plane had, and simply ignored them instead of fixing them. For example, cooling issues. Theres a reason he was flying it at 1000agl  to boise.

[carusoam]

Being a one man band…

Defines being in over one’s head…

Every cut corner…

Every skipped exercise…

Every opportunity overlooked…

Every employee not hired or let go…

 

Somebody has to do this kind of thing…

It helps to be smart and lucky… and have a bicycle shop that pays the bills while you experiment…. 
 

Is there success at the end of this long tunnel?

Best regards,

-a-

[J Bird]

I wish he had started the project with a Lycoming or Continental engine and worked the Audi engine in as an alternative after getting things worked out on the airframe. 

[Yetti]

We should probably wait for Dan G. to let us know what happened before we speculate.   I mean it was a corn field and everything.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Yetti

[Brandontwalker]

I saw this post pop up and completely forget I started it 3 years ago. Sadly, I pulled my deposit on the Raptor sever months ago. Another Mooney is in my near future.


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[Brandontwalker]

So… Peter is abandoning all of the original Raptor except the fuselage (kind of). Add a wholly new experimental power set up and you have the Raptor NG. I wish he would have learned from the past and not tried so much at once. We will see how it does.

https://raptoraircraft.medium.com/raptor-ng-the-next-generation-cf3e4719b2d3


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[carusoam]

Raptor is dead!

Next Gen has begun…

Electric, twin, ducted fan, canard, bi plane… fits in your garage…

Almost as believable as Audi powered, pressurized, Canard, that you build yourself….

 

 

I now have three more years of YT entertainment to watch!

-a-