Looking for a good pre-buy inspection near Placerville CA

[KLRDMD]

  On 1/15/2018 at 3:09 AM, Pshap31 said:

I read all of the thread on Skywagons. Thank you guys for steering me onto that thread. Mark struck me and my wife as being a "used car salesman." She's South African so she just keeps saying "He's English!"...which apparently is not good. We do really like the plane but I think she and I are both in agreement that it needs to go to Top Gun or Lasar for the pre buy or it will be a no-go. Again I thank you all so much for your input and advice. I've been flying military for almost 13 years but getting into this on my own dime is terrifying/exhilarating. I've literally learned so much in the process though I am feeling less and less anxious for when the right plane does come along.

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I talked to the guy that was going to look at that airplane this weekend. He cancelled the trip and got his deposit back since they refused to allow either Top Gun or LASAR to do a pre-buy on the airplane. He is sending a different Mooney to pre-buy this week that he looked at and flew this weekend at a different broker.

[carusoam]

There are a few brokers that specialize in Mooneys...

All American Aircraft

Lasar

and a couple of others...

You might pay more for the service, but it is a service that may be very valuable your first or second time...

By the time you have Ken Reed's level of buying experience, direct to the seller is probably the best way to go.

Keep in mind, the MSC network maintains many Mooneys.  They are at the front of the line when a customer is thinking of selling a well maintained Mooney.

A broker that doesn't focus on Mooneys isn't going to be able to be helpful getting you past the paypoint...

Mooneys aren't that challenging to know well. Just few brokers want to deal with such a small specialty. 

Keep in mind the lower levels of Mooneys end up in less reputable low margin shops...

Often, the higher level Mooneys end up in the more reputable shops...

This really makes it tough for the first timers using smaller budgets.  The chance of accidently getting a lemon increases nearer the bottom...

Best regards,

-a-

[larryb]

I would encourage you to shop higher up in the food chain if you possibly can. This plane needs a lot of expensive upgrades. In the long run the purchase price of an airplane pales in comparison to the operational costs. So it really doesn't make any sense to scrimp in the purchase.

It would be fine if one were to leave it as-is,  and use it to build hours or as a VFR machine. It is upgrading to a modern IFR traveling machine that is the problem. I guess it all depends on your use and goals with it.

Larry

[Pshap31]

  On 1/15/2018 at 3:12 AM, KLRDMD said:

I talked to the guy that was going to look at that airplane this weekend. He cancelled the trip and got his deposit back since they refused to allow either Top Gun or LASAR to do a pre-buy on the airplane. He is sending a different Mooney to pre-buy this week that he looked at and flew this weekend at a different broker.

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Wow that's a big deal...Thank you!

[Pshap31]

  On 1/15/2018 at 3:38 AM, larryb said:

I would encourage you to shop higher up in the food chain if you possibly can. This plane needs a lot of expensive upgrades. In the long run the purchase price of an airplane pales in comparison to the operational costs. So it really doesn't make any sense to scrimp in the purchase.

It would be fine if one were to leave it as-is,  and use it to build hours or as a VFR machine. It is upgrading to a modern IFR traveling machine that is the problem. I guess it all depends on your use and goals with it.

Larry

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I think we are comfortable up to around 50K if we could get a usable GPS installed with it...What other things would you recommend as must haves...I absolutely want an IFR vehicle to explore the west.  I currently fly 1965 T-38s around that only have a TACAN in IFR so maybe I'm not expecting enough for the money...lol

Edited January 15, 2018 by Pshap31

[larryb]

Have you read the numerous threads on what people spend per year operating their plane? Typically $20,000 to $30,000 +. So 10 years of that, say $250,000, makes the difference between an $50,000 plane and a $100,000 plane relatively small. That was the point I was trying to make.

Regarding other things, so many are of the pay-me-know or pay-me-later category. Take an engine monitor. Most would consider that mandatory. It will be close to $10,000 installed. But if you don't have it, engine maintenance will be a lot harder and more expensive because you won't have the data to diagnose a problem.

Larry

[Pshap31]

 

  On 1/15/2018 at 3:12 AM, KLRDMD said:

I talked to the guy that was going to look at that airplane this weekend. He cancelled the trip and got his deposit back since they refused to allow either Top Gun or LASAR to do a pre-buy on the airplane. He is sending a different Mooney to pre-buy this week that he looked at and flew this weekend at a different broker.

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  On 1/15/2018 at 7:04 PM, Pshap31 said:

 

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So I talked to Top Gun today and apparently Mark flies planes down to them all the time for pre-buys. Makes me wonder what's going on here. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Pshap31

[gsxrpilot]

I think a budget of $50K ought to get you a top of the line C. That's what I spent on my C in 2014. I'll be happy to send you the spec sheet for it just for comparison. Send me a PM if you'd like it.

I would agree with @larryb that an engine monitor is mandatory but I think you could have one installed, an Insight G2 for closer to $3000. So for me that's not a deal breaker. But I'd certainly have the funds set aside to get one installed ASAP after purchase.

[Guest]

  On 1/15/2018 at 8:08 PM, Pshap31 said:

 

So I talked to Top Gun today and apparently Mark flies planes down to them all the time for pre-buys. Makes me wonder what's going on here. 

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Rumour and speculation, a specialty here.

Clarence

[KLRDMD]

  On 1/15/2018 at 8:08 PM, Pshap31 said:

So I talked to Top Gun today and apparently Mark flies planes down to them all the time for pre-buys. Makes me wonder what's going on here. 

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If you're interested in this airplane see if they'll let it go to them for a pre-buy.

[bonal]

  On 1/15/2018 at 10:32 PM, KLRDMD said:

If you're interested in this airplane see if they'll let it go to them for a pre-buy.

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Seems pretty straight forward either they will or they won't problem solved.

[RobertGary1]

  On 1/15/2018 at 8:08 PM, Pshap31 said:

 

So I talked to Top Gun today and apparently Mark flies planes down to them all the time for pre-buys. Makes me wonder what's going on here. 

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It’s just expensive. Mark will hire a pilot to move planes. I’ve used Top Gun. Probably the most expensive annual you can find in The state but they do do good work. I’m down the road from you in Folsom. 

-Robert

[TargetDriver]

PSHap, sorry, a bit late to this thread.  I live in Roseville too !!  I actually went out to Skywagons to look at a J model about 2 years ago when I was shopping. They were nice enough but the particular plane I was looking at needed more work that I could see visually than I was ready to pay his price for. Never got to the hard dickering stage after my second visit to them. I found my K model in Minnesota and it was worth every penny to fly out there to see it.   Mike Wiskus (Turns out he is/was the Lucas Oil airshow pilot-Pitts) was selling the plane for a family friend.

I had them do a full annual after we did a semi-solid inspection and I gave them the go-ahead. Even though I had them do the prebuy, they were more than willing to take it, with me to the shop of my choice for the prebuy.

In hind sight, my plane is all virgin original which means I get to/have to do all the expensive upgrading avionics-wise. My next plane, if there ever is one, will already be updated I think.

Unfortunately I'm deployed right now in AF for another couple months. If your staying in Rville and want, PM me. My planes at L36 tucked in under SMF's Charlie a/s.  When I et back I'm going back to flying L39's and jet targets so looking forward to that.  Mauser Aviation is a smaller FBO at L36 but Coy, the A&P there is great. I'm sure they'd be happy to do a prebuy for you if you're still needing one locally.   Best of Luck in your search.

[47U]

Did Phil Corman (The Mooney Flyer) own this airplane back in the late 2000s?  He might be able to shed some light on its history.

[kortopates]

  On 1/20/2018 at 8:30 PM, 47U said:

Did Phil Corman (The Mooney Flyer) own this airplane back in the late 2000s?  He might be able to shed some light on its history.

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Indeed it was Phil's C model before his Eagle @mooneyflyer

[thinwing]

Ask ragtime aero located at placerville to do the pre buy...he checked out a Baron for me many years ago

[Pshap31]

Thank you all for the advice. I've been away for business the last few days. I am ready to put in an offer, so we will see how it goes

[Pshap31]

  On 1/19/2018 at 10:27 PM, TargetDriver said:

PSHap, sorry, a bit late to this thread.  I live in Roseville too !!  I actually went out to Skywagons to look at a J model about 2 years ago when I was shopping. They were nice enough but the particular plane I was looking at needed more work that I could see visually than I was ready to pay his price for. Never got to the hard dickering stage after my second visit to them. I found my K model in Minnesota and it was worth every penny to fly out there to see it.   Mike Wiskus (Turns out he is/was the Lucas Oil airshow pilot-Pitts) was selling the plane for a family friend.

I had them do a full annual after we did a semi-solid inspection and I gave them the go-ahead. Even though I had them do the prebuy, they were more than willing to take it, with me to the shop of my choice for the prebuy.

In hind sight, my plane is all virgin original which means I get to/have to do all the expensive upgrading avionics-wise. My next plane, if there ever is one, will already be updated I think.

Unfortunately I'm deployed right now in AF for another couple months. If your staying in Rville and want, PM me. My planes at L36 tucked in under SMF's Charlie a/s.  When I et back I'm going back to flying L39's and jet targets so looking forward to that.  Mauser Aviation is a smaller FBO at L36 but Coy, the A&P there is great. I'm sure they'd be happy to do a prebuy for you if you're still needing one locally.   Best of Luck in your search.

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Would love to come check out the L39 sometime... I can hook you up with a mobile ride for the U-2 but I'm guessing you've probably been if you're an Air Force guy in Roseville

[glenn reynolds]

My advice is to NOT do a prepurchase inspection.  If you look carefully at what a prepurchase inspection is:  A third parties opinion on if it MIGHT be an ok plane to purchase.  This is a like knowingly taking off for a flight where the weather MIGHT be ok to land!  The destination weather may be perfect for an instrument pilot where it could easily kill a VFR only pilot.  The cost of a prepurchase inspection is about two thirds the cost of an annual so what are you exactly saving?  is it dollars?  is it time?  is it hassle?  If a thorough prepurchase involves going through all the items of an annual, then the only thing saved dollar wise is the repairs.  I would argue that if a buyer is not ready to pay for an annual then they have not committed to buy that airframe and that is not a bad thing.  But why should you then own this plane for maybe eight months dreading what you will learn when the annual comes due???   When you know an airplane is the right machine for you, then offer to purchase the plane pending an ANNUAL inspection at a shop NOT associated with the seller.   In my opinion it is VERY valuable to use a shop which is familiar with the type, they know where to look first and save thousands by spotting known issues almost immediately.   In your case this means LASAR or Top Gun.  You need to talk to both shops and see who you like, and what their schedule is.  Look at it from the sellers perspective:  a potential buyer says they had a prepurchase done and the seats need work for example so they want to pay less money.  Contrast that with a buyer who has said they will own your airplane if only it passes an annual and the Inspector says that the seats need work and can't be signed off as airworthy.

 

The Mooney I currently fly was purchased with known damage history and I'm thrilled.  I had the Mooney service center do a "super thorough" annual.  They said, oh we use a "Mooney checklist"  I said, nope, I want all items even remotely associated with a prop strike totally investigated.  I plan to pay 20% more than normal for inspection time.  We then made a list (based on what the Mooney service center had observed in prior prop strike repairs as items that they would inspect.  This included the engine mount, the firewall attachment areas, landing gear attachment areas, etc.  Ten days later we had a unacceptable list a discretionary list. The seller paid for the unacceptable list and I paid for the discretionary repairs and the most  expensive item? : it was the heated stall vane (the plane is TKS equipuiped) which it would seem was left on during the ferry flight to the airplane broker so while not really the owners fault, as it happened after he turned it over to the broker, was still a $4,500 repair I didn't have to pay for.  I suspect that the owner found it easier to deduct this repair from my purchase price as he had a signed purchase agreement, down payment and was only $4,500 away from selling the plane, so there was no haggling just a simple agreement.  The extra time that the annual cost me?  Less than $400.  

 

It takes only ten minutes on google to find hundreds of owners lament stories of folks who had a "really good" mechanic look at a plane before they bought it only to get slammed at the first annual. If you start with an annual, you have a year of getting to know your new (to you) machine, figure out who will do the second annual and learn the joys of speed, speed, and more speed (sorry I couldn't resist being an extrovert proud mooney owner) 

 

This purchase is about you getting your head around owning this plane and making sure it fits in two places: 1) Does your spouse fit in the plane and like it?  (a mooney is not a lexus!)  Second does this plane fit in your bank account?  (not the other way around!)  If the answer to those questions is yes, then how do we move the plane from the seller to you?  Understand that far too many buyers show up with 3/4 of the budget for the new plane, or put another way, many smiling buyers are financially reaching and the purchase can/will/should/may fall apart.  Your job is to show the seller that you are willing to pay a fair price for what your getting.   If your buying a non-flying ramp rat, then you should pay pennies on the dollar, but it's fair as your going to sink a lot of time and money into the machine.  I like to make a spreadsheet of all the machines of that make model type with  columns for year, upgrades, engine time, options, damage history etc.  (I personally don't include location as I love the bring it home trip)  Yes this will burn many hours of your evening, combing through trade a plane, but when you find your dream machine, you will know exactly what it is worth and be ready to make an offer now. 

 

good luck.  

[DonMuncy]

  On 1/24/2018 at 4:00 PM, glenn reynolds said:

My advice is to NOT do a prepurchase inspection.  If you look carefully at what a prepurchase inspection is:  A third parties opinion on if it MIGHT be an ok plane to purchase.  This is a like knowingly taking off for a flight where the weather MIGHT be ok to land!  The destination weather may be perfect for an instrument pilot where it could easily kill a VFR only pilot.  The cost of a prepurchase inspection is about two thirds the cost of an annual so what are you exactly saving?  is it dollars?  is it time?  is it hassle?  If a thorough prepurchase involves going through all the items of an annual, then the only thing saved dollar wise is the repairs.  I would argue that if a buyer is not ready to pay for an annual then they have not committed to buy that airframe and that is not a bad thing.  But why should you then own this plane for maybe eight months dreading what you will learn when the annual comes due???   When you know an airplane is the right machine for you, then offer to purchase the plane pending an ANNUAL inspection at a shop NOT associated with the seller.   In my opinion it is VERY valuable to use a shop which is familiar with the type, they know where to look first and save thousands by spotting known issues almost immediately.   In your case this means LASAR or Top Gun.  You need to talk to both shops and see who you like, and what their schedule is.  Look at it from the sellers perspective:  a potential buyer says they had a prepurchase done and the seats need work for example so they want to pay less money.  Contrast that with a buyer who has said they will own your airplane if only it passes an annual and the Inspector says that the seats need work and can't be signed off as airworthy.

The Mooney I currently fly was purchased with known damage history and I'm thrilled.  I had the Mooney service center do a "super thorough" annual.  They said, oh we use a "Mooney checklist"  I said, nope, I want all items even remotely associated with a prop strike totally investigated.  I plan to pay 20% more than normal for inspection time.  We then made a list (based on what the Mooney service center had observed in prior prop strike repairs as items that they would inspect.  This included the engine mount, the firewall attachment areas, landing gear attachment areas, etc.  Ten days later we had a unacceptable list a discretionary list. The seller paid for the unacceptable list and I paid for the discretionary repairs and the most  expensive item? : it was the heated stall vane (the plane is TKS equipuiped) which it would seem was left on during the ferry flight to the airplane broker so while not really the owners fault, as it happened after he turned it over to the broker, was still a $4,500 repair I didn't have to pay for.  I suspect that the owner found it easier to deduct this repair from my purchase price as he had a signed purchase agreement, down payment and was only $4,500 away from selling the plane, so there was no haggling just a simple agreement.  The extra time that the annual cost me?  Less than $400.  

It takes only ten minutes on google to find hundreds of owners lament stories of folks who had a "really good" mechanic look at a plane before they bought it only to get slammed at the first annual. If you start with an annual, you have a year of getting to know your new (to you) machine, figure out who will do the second annual and learn the joys of speed, speed, and more speed (sorry I couldn't resist being an extrovert proud mooney owner) 

This purchase is about you getting your head around owning this plane and making sure it fits in two places: 1) Does your spouse fit in the plane and like it?  (a mooney is not a lexus!)  Second does this plane fit in your bank account?  (not the other way around!)  If the answer to those questions is yes, then how do we move the plane from the seller to you?  Understand that far too many buyers show up with 3/4 of the budget for the new plane, or put another way, many smiling buyers are financially reaching and the purchase can/will/should/may fall apart.  Your job is to show the seller that you are willing to pay a fair price for what your getting.   If your buying a non-flying ramp rat, then you should pay pennies on the dollar, but it's fair as your going to sink a lot of time and money into the machine.  I like to make a spreadsheet of all the machines of that make model type with  columns for year, upgrades, engine time, options, damage history etc.  (I personally don't include location as I love the bring it home trip)  Yes this will burn many hours of your evening, combing through trade a plane, but when you find your dream machine, you will know exactly what it is worth and be ready to make an offer now.  

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You make some good points, but there problem with this approach. First, once an "annual inspection" (FAA definition) starts, the plane is out of commission until signed off or a list of discrepancies is given and rectified. If the seller is very smart, he should never agree to have his plane potentially grounded with the need to spend his money to get it back. So until the ownership has shifted to the buyer, it is smart not to start an annual. In the same vein, if the annual starts, and wing spar corrosion is immediately found, the smart buyer should say "stop right here; deal's off". Do you want to pay for a full annual at that point. 

My belief is that a pre-purchase examination should be done, starting with a short list of "deal killing" items, certainly including corrosion, and perhaps borescope, fuel tank leaks, etc. If it passes, then go on to the next level, with the things that will involve substantial cost. These might include all the major things covered by an annual. You are then in a position of agreeing with the seller as to what things each of you will pay for, or if the deal is cancelled. Then, if the deal is finalized, have the examination flipped to an annual. The price will likely be virtually  the same as an annual.

Perhaps we are saying close to the same thing, but the terminology is important.

 

[gsxrpilot]

  On 1/24/2018 at 4:00 PM, glenn reynolds said:

My advice is to NOT do a prepurchase inspection.

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I'm sorry, but that's some of the worst advice ever posted on MooneySpace.

It might be more relevant for a newish long body in the $300K+ range, but for 5 figure vintage Mooneys, get a pre-buy from a reputable shop.

[kortopates]

  On 1/24/2018 at 4:38 PM, DonMuncy said:

You make some good points, but there problem with this approach. First, once an "annual inspection" (FAA definition) starts, the plane is out of commission until signed off or a list of discrepancies is given and rectified. If the seller is very smart, he should never agree to have his plane potentially grounded with the need to spend his money to get it back. So until the ownership has shifted to the buyer, it is smart not to start an annual. In the same vein, if the annual starts, and wing spar corrosion is immediately found, the smart buyer should say "stop right here; deal's off". Do you want to pay for a full annual at that point. 

My belief is that a pre-purchase examination should be done, starting with a short list of "deal killing" items, certainly including corrosion, and perhaps borescope, fuel tank leaks, etc. If it passes, then go on to the next level, with the things that will involve substantial cost. These might include all the major things covered by an annual. You are then in a position of agreeing with the seller as to what things each of you will pay for, or if the deal is cancelled. Then, if the deal is finalized, have the examination flipped to an annual. The price will likely be virtually  the same as an annual.

Perhaps we are saying close to the same thing, but the terminology is important.

 

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Don nailed it up above. The key thing is that the pre-purchase inspection, which is not a legal inspection like an annual, should not be flipped to an official annual inspection until the buyer is the new owner since until that point, the buyer has no say in the annual inspection process - only the owner of record does.  @glenn reynolds though has the right idea to do a through pre-purchase inspection in order to make an informed buying decision and be in a position to negotiate about the seller correcting all airworthy issues and also building a discretionary list to realize additional maintenance items he might be paying for if seller doesn't want to pay for these. But its all about execution and all of this must take place before flipping the inspection from pre-purchase to annual in case buyer decides to back out. Otherwise both party's could loose dearly, including the seller if the buyer backs out and and now the seller is responsible for an unexpected annual cost The buyer can loose when the owner only approves the mandatory airworthy items be completed with the annual while the owner is financially accountable for the annual bill - not the buyer. Leaving the buyer to pay to do his discretionary items after the bill of sale at likely additional expense.   At Savvy Aviation we've seen these attempted pre-purchase annuals go sideways and manage them as suggested above to avoid these issues.

Edited January 24, 2018 by kortopates

[marooneypilot]

  On 1/24/2018 at 6:53 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I'm sorry, but that's some of the worst advice ever posted on MooneySpace.

It might be more relevant for a newish long body in the $300K+ range, but for 5 figure vintage Mooneys, get a pre-buy from a reputable shop.

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Paul, I agree with you - but couldn't help remembering your comment when I was in pre-buy for 231DH 

Ok, I realize that is a different situation, but couldn't resist poking a bit of fun 

 

[jrwilson]

Hangtown Aviation in Placerville does my maintenance.  Not a service center, but Mooney Knowledgeable.  They're not affiliated with Skywagons and do relatively little business with them...

[RobertGary1]

  On 1/24/2018 at 8:15 PM, jrwilson said:

Hangtown Aviation in Placerville does my maintenance.  Not a service center, but Mooney Knowledgeable.  They're not affiliated with Skywagons and do relatively little business with them...

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Is Stancil’s still up there? They did an annual for me years ago. Was only so-so. Flew home before I realized they never signed off to the annual.  Had to remove the belly and reattach my antennas. 

-Robert