Lost Mooney M20D - Search with Magnetometer?

[Stacey]

My cousin's Mooney M20D went down near Revekstoke BC, Canada, on November 25, 2017. The military has stopped the search and the family is left to do everything we can to bring my cousin (the pilot) and his girlfriend home.  We are hearing mixed stories about whether or not a magnetometer may help locate the aircraft.  I have read that the Mooney did have steel components.  I am looking for opinions regarding the viability of this search option.  We have a couple of high probability search areas that we are interested in using this equipment on, if we can get confirmation that search efforts as such are worth while.  Rotary and fixed wing, visual searches, haven't been helpful.  The high probability areas have been defined using cell phone pings, foreflight information, and last known radar position.

Thanks in advance for your insight.

[KSMooniac]

  On 12/13/2017 at 9:07 PM, Stacey said:

My cousin's Mooney M20D went down near Revekstoke BC, Canada, on November 25, 2017. The military has stopped the search and the family is left to do everything we can to bring my cousin (the pilot) and his girlfriend home.  We are hearing mixed stories about whether or not a magnetometer may help locate the aircraft.  I have read that the Mooney did have steel components.  I am looking for opinions regarding the viability of this search option.  We have a couple of high probability search areas that we are interested in using this equipment on, if we can get confirmation that search efforts as such are worth while.  Rotary and fixed wing, visual searches, haven't been helpful.  The high probability areas have been defined using cell phone pings, foreflight information, and last known radar position.
Thanks in advance for your insight.

Mooneys have a structural steel cage that surrounds the cabin (like a roll cage in a race car) as well as tubular steel landing gear components, and a steel crankshaft and other parts in the engine. I'm not familiar with search technology, but perhaps with that info you can get an answer from an expert. It sounds like a daunting task.

I'm sorry for your loss. Not having closure is awful.

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[Stacey]

Thank you, KSMooniac.  I will log that information.

[KSMooniac]

Forgot to specify that the steel is magnetic, not stainless, so it could be possible.

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[Stacey]

  On 12/13/2017 at 9:33 PM, KSMooniac said:

Forgot to specify that the steel is magnetic, not stainless, so it could be possible.

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Thanks again!

[Cruiser]

Sorry for your loss.

I use magnetometers in submerged searching and have some experience with them .

In general the magnetometer measures a change in the earths magnetic strength. Any concentration of magnetic material (iron/steel) will cause a localized change in signal strength. The problem is that the strength of the signal is extremely weak and the change will be very, very small based on the amount of material you are looking for. My guess is you would be close enough to see the plane before you would sense it with a magnetometer. 

[BKlott]

First of all let me say how very sorry I am for your loss, Stacey. I do have a suggestion to offer. You may consider contacting some  local people who actually reside in the vicinity of your high probability search areas to see if the conditions on the ground are likely to improve between now and the summer months. That may help to improve your chances for success.

[RLCarter]

Isn't there private company's that offer satellite imagery,? Seem to remember a website you could go to when Malaysia Airlines (MH) #380 went down and help with the search

[DanM20C]

  On 12/14/2017 at 2:56 AM, RLCarter said:

Isn't there private company's that offer satellite imagery,? Seem to remember a website you could go to when Malaysia Airlines (MH) #380 went down and help with the search

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That’s what I was thinking. 

Stacy, you may want to contact these guys. https://www.tomnod.com/

I don’t know how successful their searches have been but it is worth a shot. 

I think there are other sights too.  A few years back I searched a few hours for a missing plane on tomnod.

Im Terribly sorry for your loss. I hope you can find them soon.

Dan

[carusoam]

Stacey,

Sorry to hear about your situation...

Are you able to share the tail number of the missing Mooney?

This may open a box of public information that may be helpful for somebody looking to help.

On another note...  one of the technologies used for finding objects that have settled on the sea floor is called 'side scanning sonar'.  Essentially a torpedo dragged by a boat using a form of echo-location.  Lots of sensors looking for unusual echoes...

An example of this high tech solution can be found here... https://woodshole.er.usgs.gov/operations/sfmapping/sonar.htm

Searching 'side scanning sonar' might lead you to some ideas...

An example of somebody using this technology to find a private plane in a deep lake can be found here...  http://www.shipwreckworld.com/articles/sunken-aerostar-aircraft-found-seneca-lake

Use this information to see if it can fit your situation.  I don't have any experience with it personally.

I hope you find your answers...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[carusoam]

@mike_elliott

An invitation for mike to be aware and possibly join this thread if able...

-a-

[Mooneymite]

Terribly sorry to hear about your loss.  May God bless your search efforts.

Are you asking about the magnetometer for use searching the numerous lakes, or are you still concentrating on a land search?  As you may know, the US Navy used a magnetometer on the tail of the P-3 to search for submarines, but even given the mass of a submarine, the magnetometer had to be pretty close to the target for detection.  I seriously doubt such would be very effective given the metallic mass of a Mooney.

[steingar]

I am inordinately sorry for the OP's loss.  The one down side of aviator is sometimes things don't go well, and sometimes they go spectacularly wrong.  That area looks vast and inhospitable.  I would only caution the OP not to endanger the living trying to repatriate the dead.  I can only wish for all the luck in the world.  

[carusoam]

Is this the area...?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revelstoke,_British_Columbia

Not being familiar, I see a spelling difference...

Seems to be more of a mountain search, than an ocean search...?

Best regards,

-a-

[mike_elliott]

  On 12/14/2017 at 2:16 PM, carusoam said:

@mike_elliott

An invitation for mike to be aware and possibly join this thread if able...

-a-

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PM to Stacey sent. Stacey, We are so very sorry. We will be in contact.

[bonal]

Really sad to learn of your loss and of the uncertainty you are facing. Good luck and prayers to you with whatever efforts you make.

[tigers2007]

Here is a link to the story: CBC News http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/edmonton/bc-missing-plane-edmonton-pilot-military-search-1.4433844

 

I have actually seen specially modified aircraft used for performing aerial surveys of underground metals. All of them I saw were based out of Canada.

 

I don’t know the names of the firms but they don’t seem unobtainable for your mission - they were single or twin Piper’s. If I find anything I’ll PM you.

 

 

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[carusoam]

Possible point of departure...?   https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penticton_Regional_Airport

 

Possible destination...? http://www.linearair.com/airport/Revelstoke-in-Revelstoke-BC-YRV/

 

posible VFR Route...? https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Penticton,+British+Columbia,+Canada/Revelstoke,+British+Columbia,+Canada/@50.2522253,-118.9810698,8z/data=!4m8!4m7!1m2!1m1!1s0x54826277ad3c38b5:0xf46e92d07191569!1m2!1m1!1s0x53793705fa6adda5:0x4f3c647db9d6efca!3e0?hl=en-us

 

Google search... ( pilot Dominic Neron )  reveals a few news stories of the missing people/plane...

 

This is a collection of ideas that came to mind of a private pilot... shared...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[kortopates]

Revelstoke is where I was assuming. Its a beautiful area as is Penticton which I've visited as well on a Mooney trip.
@stacey sorry for your loss. I have a friend that specializes in these kind of searches. She is a fellow colleague at Savvy and she and her company have been involved in many high profile searches. CNN used her many times when they were discussing the lost MH370. I can put you in touch if you PM me.


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[Yetti]

I am guessing here, but the chance for finding the plane digitally would be using High definition LIDAR gear.  If by chance there has been oil exploration in the area or pipelines, it might be possible to compare the before and after and "see" a plane.   There are also some pretty smart people on this site.   If you post the positions and data you have people hear could take a look and find a mostly likely position.

Sorry for your loss.

 

[kortopates]

Since you bring it up, Stacey mentioned they have cell phone ping data. If so and that was after the crash, that should take them directly to the site. We've seen that to be case a numerous times over the last few years. This was also how a local downed Mooney pilot friend was found after I gave his cell phone to the gal I mentioned above involved in the search. The coordinates took the team directly to the site. I assuming in this case they haven't been able to follow up because of assessility issues given its winter.

 

 

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[Jerry 5TJ]

Sure wish the plane had a 406 MHz ELT with GPS that had sent out their final position.   

This event makes me realize that even if the 406 ELT doesn’t save you, it may save your family weeks of anguish of wondering if you survived.  

[Guest]

  On 12/16/2017 at 12:34 AM, Jerry 5TJ said:

Sure wish the plane had a 406 MHz ELT with GPS that had sent out their final position.   

This event makes me realize that even if the 406 ELT doesn’t save you, it may save your family weeks of anguish of wondering if you survived.  

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In Canada we were supposed to go to 406 ELT’s many years ago, but our national pilots group COPA fought the requirement and it was scraped.  Many still have old types but more are upgrading.

Clarence

[Stephen]

Here is a site with pics of the missing plane. 

https://www.revelstokemountaineer.com/family-missing-pilot-passenger-create-gofundme-account-keep-search-going/

Here is the Go Fund Me site for SnR; they are $36K of $40K to goal:

https://www.gofundme.com/bring-dom-ash-home 

C-FESN Flight Aware Link (no history in last 15 days but links to aircraft reg).

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CFESN/history 

 

 

[kortopates]

  On 12/16/2017 at 1:27 AM, Stephen said:

Here is a site with pics of the missing plane. 

https://www.revelstokemountaineer.com/family-missing-pilot-passenger-create-gofundme-account-keep-search-going/

Here is the Go Fund Me site for SnR; they are $36K of $40K to goal:

https://www.gofundme.com/bring-dom-ash-home 

C-FESN Flight Aware Link (no history in last 15 days but links to aircraft reg).

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CFESN/history 

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The article mentions the cell phone ping data placed them by Rogers Pass. I hope they have a better idea than just the vicinity of the pass, but that makes sense. The pass would make sense for anyone following the main highway traversing the range since it goes through at about 4400' in Glacier National Park. But right at the pass, the highway and lower terrrain jogs to the north to get around 3 high peaks just further east of the pass  from 9400' to almost 10,800 with the higher one being Mt Sir McDonald which is just a little south of the pass. Wiki says even the pass gets an average November snowfall of about 65" and December gets another 85". Looks like searches will have the same challenges they had finding Steve Fossett due to the snow which preventing his discovery till the the following September - a year later. Of course we all hope the missing couple and plane are found soonest.