Family pressures?

[Browncbr1]

8 hours ago, 201er said:

At the risk of being a party pooper I think the inlaws might be right this time. At 70 hours you haven't even had the chance to reach the apex of the statistical danger curve. You are not experienced enough to judge if you are experienced enough. With more experience you'll understand that. You'll also look back and say, wow I can't believe how inexperienced and confident i used to be and what risk i put my passengers in. 

The more argumentative/defensive you get about your flying only the more inexperienced it makes you look. I think most of the experienced pilots I know would be less reluctant to scrap a flight if necessary. The ability to be indifferent or at least less enthusiastic about the necessity of making a flight makes us better pilots. Gettheritis comes from the other side. 

Personally, I would suggest doing 200-500 hours of airplane flying and get an instrument rating before worrying about convincing people of your qualifications. When you're genuinely qualified, you won't have to. Then if the in laws are still grumbling, then they're being unreasonable.

All he needs is to install an AOA and show the in laws.   Problem solved!    JK.  

There is truth to what you’re saying.   I actually told my wife that I wasn’t ready to have her or kids aboard I think until I had about 150 hours or so. Now that I have a little over 300 hours, Instrument and commercial ratings, the inlaws don’t seem to squirm as much.   Even though, I still feel green and catch myself doing no-no’s from time to time.  Live, learn, enjoy.   

[NJMac]

Here's the metars on the map from ForeFlight. It looked the exact same way on Friday when we would have came down. Is there something I'm missing that should cause me more fear?

[NJMac]

Here's the second leg. Some stations reporting mist that will most likely leave as it burns off this morning.


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[mccdeuce]

I fly all over with my fiancé. She loves it. In fact she hates it when we have to drive now.  

Her father was nervous for sure when we first started. I am a professional pilot - but I chose much  ore conservative numbers for everything to build his confidence as well as mine (while I have 2000 hours total I only had 10 in Mooney when I started).

I also recommend removing additional stressors. Thanksgiving is a stressor for them - and you. Get there itis - even if you don't think it does it does. So I recommend you start small. Use the in laws as "flight Plan" filing with lots of short trips. if you have any big trips just give them a call and let them know of some risks you have identified and how you plan to mitigate (that one may sound counter intuitive but knowing that you have thought of these things will help them keep their mind at peace).

as for your last question - just because it forecasts cavu in mountains doesn't mean it stays cavu.  (Even short mountains can cause weird weather systems) 

and finally some people may not be familiar with Mooneys.  You say they are pilots of old. They may be thinking of some other aircraft that would really struggle to climb as needed above 4000 AGL.

it will get better. 

[flight2000]

I flew Friday morning from South Bend, IN to Richmond, VA and the weather was perfect along the entire route.  Nice tailwind, but nothing out of the ordinary.  Lot's of traffic out there that morning too.  I don't see any cause for concern with your route. 

BUT....just have a back-up plan in case the weather isn't what's reported or expected.  There was no forecast for rain (or snow) along our route when we left early Thursday morning for KSBN, but sure enough, we ended up between layers and it rained a little just north of Fort Wayne, IN.  We were IFR so it was a non-issue for us, but could have been if I hadn't been through that many times before and was current.  Popped out the other side and it was clear at South Bend.

Not going to give any family advice since everyone is different.  Lot's of other solid advice has already been given IMHO... 

Cheers and good luck!

Brian 

 

[Browncbr1]

41 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Here's the metars on the map from ForeFlight. It looked the exact same way on Friday when we would have came down. Is there something I'm missing that should cause me more fear?

Rather than fly direct,   I would go down the valley all the way to Choochoo before turning south.    No reason to go direct over rough terrain

[NJMac]

Rather than fly direct,   I would go down the valley all the way to Choochoo before turning south.    No reason to go direct over rough terrain

Mind spelling it out a bit more for me? Are there any waypoints or vors to use as reference points?

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[Jerry 5TJ]

54 minutes ago, NJMac said:

..... Is there something I'm missing that should cause me more fear?

Not to my eyes, no:

A widespread high pressure system with clear skies.  Excellent GA day VFR flying conditions.  

It’s only about 195 nmi along the direct route.  

Direct to Chattanoga then direct destination would keep you over lower terrain and only add 5 nmI total. 

In those clear weather conditions I’d have flown it at 8500 in any of my Mooneys.  

Aside:  With the ability to easily move a flight plan from iPad to the panel I’d have filed IFR along the ATC preferred route KBYL JELLO V333 GQO V243 FELTO KCTJ.  I’d likely get “cleared as filed” and it’s 209 nmi total.  

The preferred route is west of the higher terrain, too.  

 

 

[NJMac]

Not to my eyes, no:
A widespread high pressure system with clear skies.  Excellent GA day VFR flying conditions.  
It’s only about 195 nmi along the direct route.  
Direct to Chattanoga then direct destination would keep you over lower terrain and only add 5 nmI total. 
In those clear weather conditions I’d have flown it at 8500 in any of my Mooneys.  
Aside:  With the ability to easily move a flight plan from iPad to the panel I’d have filed IFR along the ATC preferred route KBYL JELLO V333 GQO V243 FELTO KCTJ.  I’d likely get “cleared as filed” and it’s 209 nmi total.  

The preferred route is west of the higher terrain, too.  
 
 

This info is golden. Thank you. My wife actually asked if we should vear West instead of East when we bend around certain airspace. This answers that and helps explain the why. Thanks!

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[Hank]

Just now, NJMac said:

Mind spelling it out a bit more for me? Are there any waypoints or vors to use as reference points?

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He's suggesting you stay west of Chattanooga and swung back towards Atlanta further south. It's a large, wide valley, easily visible from the air. Not sure why he's suggesting it.

I got my license in WV, my student solo was all over the coal fields of E. KY. I flew my wife to see my parents in Asheville less than two weks after my checkride, in a rental 172 without GPS, and from far western WV to her parents in central NC in my Mooney with less than 100 hours. I went VFR at 7500 to have at least 2000' clearance over the hills and antennas of southern WV.

[Hank]

9 hours ago, 201er said:

At the risk of being a party pooper I think the inlaws might be right this time. At 70 hours you haven't even had the chance to reach the apex of the statistical danger curve. You are not experienced enough to judge if you are experienced enough. With more experience you'll understand that. You'll also look back and say, wow I can't believe how inexperienced and confident i used to be and what risk i put my passengers in. 

The more argumentative/defensive you get about your flying only the more inexperienced it makes you look. I think most of the experienced pilots I know would be less reluctant to scrap a flight if necessary. The ability to be indifferent or at least less enthusiastic about the necessity of making a flight makes us better pilots. Gettheritis comes from the other side. 

Personally, I would suggest doing 200-500 hours of airplane flying and get an instrument rating before worrying about convincing people of your qualifications. When you're genuinely qualified, you won't have to. Then if the in laws are still grumbling, then they're being unreasonable.

YGBSM!! You really think it's so irresponsible and risky to actually fly a small plane? How's he supposed to get several hundred hours experience without actually using his plane to travel? You don't learn anything about weather out in the practice area . . . . 

Go fly your plane responsibly. It's fine to leave the pattern, turn your back on the practice area and disappear over the horizon, it's what Mooneys were built for, and is why we all bought one.

I am frequently surprised by the elitist "you can't do what we do" attitude that surfaces here when a new pilot asks questions, or God forbid, wants to fly his airplane . . . . . 

[Hank]

6 minutes ago, NJMac said:

This info is golden. Thank you. My wife actually asked if we should vear West instead of East when we bend around certain airspace. This answers that and helps explain the why. Thanks!

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NJ, he's not suggesting that complicated IFR route due to any airspace issues. He's suggesting it because he thinks it's dangerous for you to fly direct over the hills . . . For reasons that baffle me. Don't know how anyone calls this the "preferred route;" the one you showed initially (i.e., GPS Direct) would be my preferred route. 

[NJMac]

NJ, he's not suggesting that complicated IFR route due to any airspace issues. He's suggesting it because he thinks it's dangerous for you to fly direct over the hills . . . For reasons that baffle me. Don't know how anyone calls this the "preferred route;" the one you showed initially (i.e., GPS Direct) would be my preferred route. 

Understood. His route did get west into the valley though, correct? If that is a simple risk reduction move then id be wise to include it

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[N601RX]

Don't discuss how you will be traveling with them ahead of time.  Fly the plane to your airport of choice in Atlanta and then get a rental car and drive to their house. If they still don't want to let it go when you get there then you always have the option of getting back in the car and leaving. 

[Andy95W]

9 minutes ago, Hank said:

YGBSM!! You really think it's so irresponsible and risky to actually fly a small plane? How's he supposed to get several hundred hours experience without actually using his plane to travel? You don't learn anything about weather out in the practice area . . . . 

Go fly your plane responsibly. It's fine to leave the pattern, turn your back on the practice area and disappear over the horizon, it's what Mooneys were built for, and is why we all bought one.

I am frequently surprised by the elitist "you can't do what we do" attitude that surfaces here when a new pilot asks questions, or God forbid, wants to fly his airplane . . . . . 

It does seem to be a Catch 22 scenario.  How to gain experience without going out and getting it?

My prediction is that the in-laws won't give you any grief a few years, a few hundred hours, and a few long cross country flights from now. But for now, they're a little nervous.

[201er]

24 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

It does seem to be a Catch 22 scenario.  How to gain experience without going out and getting it?

SOLO

[NJMac]

SOLO

Crude analogy comes to mind... sure doing it solo is fine. Much more satisfying doing it with the one you love.

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[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

NJ, he's not suggesting that complicated IFR route due to any airspace issues. He's suggesting it because he thinks it's dangerous for you to fly direct over the hills . . . For reasons that baffle me. Don't know how anyone calls this the "preferred route;" ....

No, that’s not what I was thinking, Hank.

It is ATC that calls it the preferred route.   

I suggested the route because it’s easy given modern tools, because following IFR routes and altitudes guarantees terrain clearance, and because it does follow more populated, level terrain.  

ForeFlight provides the preferred route, I push “send to panel” and all the waypoints are populated into the GTN750.  

If I were flying VFR in a more basic plane I’d use my iPad or portable to follow along.  No data entry required.  

As for rocks below — if you can avoid them and thus allay fears while adding a few extra miles that is a pretty good tactic.  

I would fly the route as I suggested; it was not gratuitous advice to a new pilot.  

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

SOLO

Sure, let's advise all new pilots to fly solo all the time until they have IFR and 500 hours!! The barriers to entry just aren't high enough already . . . .

I cannot express in a family setting how incredibly arrogant, insulting and stupid this idea is!! 

[201er]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

Crude analogy comes to mind... sure doing it solo is fine. Much more satisfying doing it with the one you love.

You're the PIC. They're your loved ones, not mine. Whatever floats your boat.

[MIm20c]

Just now, 201er said:

You're the PIC. They're your loved ones, not mine. Whatever floats your boat.

Some might say that flying long distance over open water is putting loved ones at risk.  I’m not one who believes this but viewpoint is everything. 

[jetdriven]

You know up until a few years ago 70 hour pilot couldn’t even get insurance for a complex traveling machine like a Mooney or a bonanza. It took a minimum of 300 or 500 hours to even get insurance. A friend of mine had 150 hours in the cardinal RG his insurance was three grand a year.Since it’s become more competitive in the insurance market, they’ve managed to lower the eligibility now and somebody who has a wet private pilot ticket and an airplane that can travel a thousand miles a day.

I would say fly the airplane and get experience, locally at first. . the real experience doesn’t even start till a few hundred hours. And somebody who has a few hundred hours would be able to look back on that and say that’s true. So just gradually expand your envelope and be cautious and always be learning. This board is full of people who crashed their planes because they got in over their head.   You are an informed pilot and you know the risk profile. As you gain experience you’ll be able to realize there are a lot of unseen risks that you didn’t see coming. But your passengers, such as your wife or your kid don’t have that informed opinion or that decision making set they are strictly relying upon you. 

Personally I had 8,000 hours before I owned an airplane, my wife had about 400, our rhjrd partner had 100 hours. It was a full year before we actually got everybody up to speed wjere they can operate it in VFR  conditions with a high level of safety and make very few errors. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by jetdriven

[Hank]

10 minutes ago, 201er said:

You're the PIC. They're your loved ones, not mine. Whatever floats your boat.

Glad you see it that way. Multi-hour overwater flights are insane, to say nothing of flying over the icy fields of nkrthern Canada, inhabited by more polar bears than people.

Nice of you to post that there are Mooney accidents. The Gilliland Foundation is reaching out to the family of a Mooney pilot who perished on Thanksgiving while flying solo. The number of people in the plane rarely contributes to an accident; don't think I've ever seen that even as a contrubuting factor in an NTSB report.

[Hank]

Just now, jetdriven said:

You know up until a few years ago 70 hour pilot couldn’t even get insurance for a complex traveling machine like a Mooney or a bonanza. It took a minimum of 300 or 500 hours to even get insurance. A friend of mine had 150 hours in the cardinal RG his insurance was three grand a year.Since it’s become more competitive in the insurance market, they’ve managed to lower the eligibility now and somebody who has a wet private pilot ticket and an airplane that can travel a thousand miles a day.

 

Yep, that was me in 2007. Bought the Mooney five weeks after my PPL checkride, paid 3 AMU insurance the first year. With 100 hours, it was cut in half. Getting IFR cut it another third. Going with Falcon saved another 20-25%. So in ten years' time, my insurance premium has fallen by 70% or more.

Less than two weeks post-PPL, I took my wife across the Appalachians from WV to AVL. The day after finishing my insurance dual in the Mooney (15 hours including 5 hours actual or simulated IMC), we flew the length of WV to eat lunch at Morgantown. Three days later we crossed the Appalachians to see her family in central NC. 

If I'd been told that I needed an Instrument rating and several hundred hours to do that, I'd have walked out of the FBO and never gone back. Our airport trained many people to fly; are you saying that doing so is dangerous, foolish, and all of their VFR pilots are too risky? Why don't we just close all the FBOs in mountainous areas,  and restrict airport access to IFR pilots with 500 Total Time and 100 Time in Type? While we're at it, lets close all Alpha, Bravo and Charlie airspace to everyone without IFR, CPL and 1000 hours total, 250 Time in Type? Who wants GA pilots clogging the airspace with their little planes that keep crashing?

Idiots . . . . .

[DonMuncy]

2 hours ago, Andy95W said:

It does seem to be a Catch 22 scenario.  How to gain experience without going out and getting it?

This is the situation in all aviation. Especially weather. The only way to learn about weather is to fly in or near it. Naturally, I recommend slowly easing into it, but it has to be done. Otherwise you will only fly on severe clear days for the rest of your flying career.