NJMac

Family pressures?

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2 hours ago, Andy95W said:

It does seem to be a Catch 22 scenario.  How to gain experience without going out and getting it?

This is the situation in all aviation. Especially weather. The only way to learn about weather is to fly in or near it. Naturally, I recommend slowly easing into it, but it has to be done. Otherwise you will only fly on severe clear days for the rest of your flying career.

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Yep, that was me in 2007. Bought the Mooney five weeks after my PPL checkride, paid 3 AMU insurance the first year. With 100 hours, it was cut in half. Getting IFR cut it another third. Going with Falcon saved another 20-25%. So in ten years' time, my insurance premium has fallen by 70% or more.
Less than two weeks post-PPL, I took my wife across the Appalachians from WV to AVL. The day after finishing my insurance dual in the Mooney (15 hours including 5 hours actual or simulated IMC), we flew the length of WV to eat lunch at Morgantown. Three days later we crossed the Appalachians to see her family in central NC. 
If I'd been told that I needed an Instrument rating and several hundred hours to do that, I'd have walked out of the FBO and never gone back. Our airport trained many people to fly; are you saying that doing so is dangerous, foolish, and all of their VFR pilots are too risky? Why don't we just close all the FBOs in mountainous areas,  and restrict airport access to IFR pilots with 500 Total Time and 100 Time in Type? While we're at it, lets close all Alpha, Bravo and Charlie airspace to everyone without IFR, CPL and 1000 hours total, 250 Time in Type? Who wants GA pilots clogging the airspace with their little planes that keep crashing?
Idiots . . . . .


Who are you and what have you done with Hank?


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1 hour ago, Hank said:

Yep, that was me in 2007. Bought the Mooney five weeks after my PPL checkride, paid 3 AMU insurance the first year. With 100 hours, it was cut in half. Getting IFR cut it another third. Going with Falcon saved another 20-25%. So in ten years' time, my insurance premium has fallen by 70% or more.

Less than two weeks post-PPL, I took my wife across the Appalachians from WV to AVL. The day after finishing my insurance dual in the Mooney (15 hours including 5 hours actual or simulated IMC), we flew the length of WV to eat lunch at Morgantown. Three days later we crossed the Appalachians to see her family in central NC. 

If I'd been told that I needed an Instrument rating and several hundred hours to do that, I'd have walked out of the FBO and never gone back. Our airport trained many people to fly; are you saying that doing so is dangerous, foolish, and all of their VFR pilots are too risky? Why don't we just close all the FBOs in mountainous areas,  and restrict airport access to IFR pilots with 500 Total Time and 100 Time in Type? While we're at it, lets close all Alpha, Bravo and Charlie airspace to everyone without IFR, CPL and 1000 hours total, 250 Time in Type? Who wants GA pilots clogging the airspace with their little planes that keep crashing?

Idiots . . . . .

That’s not what they’re saying. What they are saying is that a newly minted pilot who, at 70 hours is barely past solo, should not fly their daughter. They have every right to be concerned and intervene.

What he should not do is push the issue. He should respect their feelings. Build time and experience. At this stage he doesn't know what he doesn’t know! 

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That’s not what they’re saying. What they are saying is that a newly minted pilot who, at 70 hours is barely past solo, should not fly their daughter. They have every right to be concerned and intervene.
What he should not do is push the issue. He should respect their feelings. Build time and experience. At this stage he doesn't know what he doesn’t know! 
PSSST! Im still here reading. Didnt die in a crash this weekend... yet

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2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

You know up until a few years ago 70 hour pilot couldn’t even get insurance for a complex traveling machine like a Mooney or a bonanza. It took a minimum of 300 or 500 hours to even get insurance. A friend of mine had 150 hours in the cardinal RG his insurance was three grand a year.Since it’s become more competitive in the insurance market, they’ve managed to lower the eligibility now and somebody who has a wet private pilot ticket and an airplane that can travel a thousand miles a day.

I would say fly the airplane and get experience, locally at first. . the real experience doesn’t even start till a few hundred hours. And somebody who has a few hundred hours would be able to look back on that and say that’s true. So just gradually expand your envelope and be cautious and always be learning. This board is full of people who crashed their planes because they got in over their head.   You are an informed pilot and you know the risk profile. As you gain experience you’ll be able to realize there are a lot of unseen risks that you didn’t see coming. But your passengers, such as your wife or your kid don’t have that informed opinion or that decision making set they are strictly relying upon you. 

Personally I had 8,000 hours before I owned an airplane, my wife had about 400, our rhjrd partner had 100 hours. It was a full year before we actually got everybody up to speed wjere they can operate it in VFR  conditions with a high level of safety and make very few errors. 

^^^^ This is wisdom.

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51 minutes ago, NJMac said:

PSSST! Im still here reading. Didnt die in a crash this weekend... yet

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Don’t take it personally. You need to mature and accept the fact that your experience is very limited. And don’t become defensive because there’s nothing wrong with that! 

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...The most dangerous part is the drive to the airport....

The biggest myth in aviation!


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3 hours ago, Hank said:

Sure, let's advise all new pilots to fly solo all the time until they have IFR and 500 hours!! The barriers to entry just aren't high enough already . . . .

I cannot express in a family setting how incredibly arrogant, insulting and stupid this idea is!! 

Brought to you by the same pilot who left the east coast, breaks down, gets it fixed and flys on to a Caribbean island only to land in the dark, all made extremely safe because of AoA!

Clarence

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22 hours ago, NJMac said:

Mind spelling it out a bit more for me? Are there any waypoints or vors to use as reference points?

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I just flew over your field an hour ago.  I know the terrain well.  If you just want to go by pilotage, I would take off and get some decent altitude and go on about a 180-190 from your field.  There is a gap and then you will see some lakes.  Head straight for TYS from there.   Before getting into C airspace you will see a ridge with several very tall towers.  Go just north of there north of the interstate about 5 miles.   Join the R-231 VXV and ride it to Chattanooga (choochoo VOr). It goes directly over several airports on the way. Then turn direct ROme VOR from choochoo.   That is a pretty simple way to clear the Cumberlands and stay in the valley the whole way down there.   ;)

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At the risk of being a party pooper I think the inlaws might be right this time. At 70 hours you haven't even had the chance to reach the apex of the statistical danger curve. You are not experienced enough to judge if you are experienced enough. With more experience you'll understand that. You'll also look back and say, wow I can't believe how inexperienced and confident i used to be and what risk i put my passengers in. 
The more argumentative/defensive you get about your flying only the more inexperienced it makes you look. I think most of the experienced pilots I know would be less reluctant to scrap a flight if necessary. The ability to be indifferent or at least less enthusiastic about the necessity of making a flight makes us better pilots. Gettheritis comes from the other side. 
Personally, I would suggest doing 200-500 hours of airplane flying and get an instrument rating before worrying about convincing people of your qualifications. When you're genuinely qualified, you won't have to. Then if the in laws are still grumbling, then they're being unreasonable.

+1 - my sentiments exactly but I’d want to see the full 500 hrs going places with an instrument rating. It takes a lot of time to gain the experience necessary to learn to even see all the inherent risks let alone how to mitigate them and we’re always learning to do a better job of it.



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+1 - my sentiments exactly but I’d want to see the full 500 hrs going places with an instrument rating. It takes a lot of time to gain the experience necessary to learn to even see all the inherent risks let alone how to mitigate them and we’re always learning to do a better job of it.



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What do you all think about starting a list of what you've seen and how you've overcome it? Wouldn't that make the entire community of general aviation safer?

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I just flew over your field an hour ago.  I know the terrain well.  If you just want to go by pilotage, I would take off and get some decent altitude and go on about a 180-190 from your field.  There is a gap and then you will see some lakes.  Head straight for TYS from there.   Before getting into C airspace you will see a ridge with several very tall towers.  Go just north of there north of the interstate about 5 miles.   Join the R-265 VXV and ride it to Chattanooga (choochoo VOr). It goes directly over several airports on the way. Then turn direct ROme VOR from choochoo.   That is a pretty simple way to clear the Cumberlands and stay in the valley the whole way down there.  
Much appreciated

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15 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

Actually statistically , it is not...

Please enlighten us with the holiday travel statistics.  I have no idea what those stats are, but I know it sure feels pretty bad out there, especially with weather.

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Don’t take it personally. You need to mature and accept the fact that your experience is very limited. And don’t become defensive because there’s nothing wrong with that! 
Just like years don't give you wisdom, I don't necessarily buy the statement that hours give you wisdom.

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15 hours ago, NJMac said:

Much appreciated

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Sorry, for some reason I thought you were in middlesboro.   Actually, from Your field, I would probably go direct over jacksboro and continue south until you start seeing farm fields, then join the r-231 vxv.    But it depends on what kind of climb performance you can achieve..   I’ve only gone over your area a few times via LOZ due to weather.     I usually go via AZQ. 

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22 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Just like years don't give you wisdom, I don't necessarily buy the statement that hours give you wisdom.

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“Mature” has the wrong connotation and I can understand offense to what he said.    I think the better choice of words would be give some time to “season” as a pilot.    It’s not the hours per se...   it’s how decision making, habits, and attitudes change over those hours than can make or break you.    Everyone here cares about you and your family and desire to help make sure you grow OLD, not BOLD.   As the saying goes, there are few old bold pilots.  It is a challenge for us low timers to stay vigilant!

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Being a safer pilot means learning how to be a little bit flakey with your schedule.  I'll be there if...the weather is fine.  I might come early.  I might come late.  I might not come at all!

Or...if you are flying somewhere not toooo far away - for me that means like 6 to 8 hours, then yeah I will say I will be there when I promise - but darned I might end up driving.

Practice watching the weather on a daily basis to a favorite destination thats maybe an 8 hour drive away, and practice that every day for like two weeks, and saying that stuff I said above...you will be a safer pilot.

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38 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Just like years don't give you wisdom, I don't necessarily buy the statement that hours give you wisdom.
 

I used to think the same.  300 hours later I scared the shit out of myself and didn't fly my Mooney for a month.  1,000 hours after that, I couldn't believe how stupid I was 500 hours before.  10,000 hours after that, and I realize I still do dumb crap that I oughta know better.  Etc, etc.

BTW, I am not one of the people who are advocating that you not make the trip.  But hours do matter, at least to a point.  Just look at insurance rates as your hours go up- and the insurance underwriters aren't stupid, their profits depend upon statistics that predict mistakes.

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5 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I used to think the same.  300 hours later I scared the shit out of myself and didn't fly my Mooney for a month.  1,000 hours after that, I couldn't believe how stupid I was 500 hours before.  10,000 hours after that, and I realize I still do dumb crap that I oughta know better.  Etc, etc.

BTW, I am not one of the people who are advocating that you not make the trip.  But hours do matter, at least to a point.  Just look at insurance rates as your hours go up- and the insurance underwriters aren't stupid, their profits depend upon statistics that predict mistakes.

And by the time I got to 50,000 hours....

Well - I'll never get to 50,000....or 10,000.  I am at 1,100.

When I was at about 125 I read a really good book by a fellow who had 50,000 hours, largely in GA, who just mostly told stories and tried to impart some of his wisdom.  I found it to be an enjoyable read and for $9.95 its like hiring Yoda-the-CFI.  I highly recommend:

Beyond The Checkride: What Your Flight Instructor Never Taught You 1st Edition

by Howard Fried  (Author)

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47 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I used to think the same.  300 hours later I scared the shit out of myself and didn't fly my Mooney for a month.  1,000 hours after that, I couldn't believe how stupid I was 500 hours before.  10,000 hours after that, and I realize I still do dumb crap that I oughta know better.  Etc, etc.

BTW, I am not one of the people who are advocating that you not make the trip.  But hours do matter, at least to a point.  Just look at insurance rates as your hours go up- and the insurance underwriters aren't stupid, their profits depend upon statistics that predict mistakes.

This is widsom speaking.  We've all scared the shit out of ourselves in an airplane and for a few of us, like Patrick, it ended with a crash and lights out. I'm no exception. I had an experienced pilot pull power on short final for a short field landing, and we got so far behind the drag curve we hit hard enough to bend a landing gear door and I was almost certain we hit the prop. Things you didnt see coming, bite you in the ass.   Experience, usually measured in hours, and time in type, which is defiantly measured in hours, really matters.  Ive read articles which show this, and a few airline pilots have managed to find the ground or a mountainside the hard way, but its the low time in type that get them.  Not all airplanes are the same.

Edited by jetdriven
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3 hours ago, Marauder said:


Who are you and what have you done with Hank?
 

 

It pisses me off when people get on their high horses and start preaching that it takes 300-500 hours and an instrument rating to be "safe enough" to take your family on a 200nm VFR trip. Put that in the "You Too Can Be a Pilot" brochures, and there won't be any more student pilots.

We all earned our PPLs so we can fly places, and the traffic pattern and local practice area don't count as going anywhere. Condemn me to 200 hours of that before I can do anything else? And you wonder why aviation is struggling! It's because of attitudes like this!

Earn your PPL, rent or buy an airplane, and go places. My wife would have had a hissy fit if I'd told her she couldn't fly anywhere with me in our plane for three years . . . From my initial checkride to 300 hours, I doubt I had 20 hours solo (I'd have to dig out my first logbook to be sure).

And as for Byron's 8000 hours before he felt safe enough to buy a plane, few non-professional pilots accrue that many hours in their lifetimes. How much transfers from flying 747s to flying a Mooney anyway? Comfort and familiarity with IFR procedures, and talking on the radio, not much else. Airline pilots have accidents in little planes all the time, that's why so many of them are unwilling to fly single engine at night, over water, in IMC and a host of other conditions that GA-only pilots routinely fly in.

@NJMac, if i can misquote an old song, "get in your plane and fly!" And it needn't be solo, it needn't be around the pattern or just to the practice area. My oft-stated goal during initial training was "to take this plane to Asheville," and none of the CFIs or the FBO owner (CFI, CFII, MEI) had any problems with the thought of a brand new VFR pilot taking their 172 without GPS on a flight 197nm due south along the spine of the Appalachians to KAVL and back. (The other 172 had a 430, but only 150 hp, and I didn't like how it handled.)

Quit badgering the new pilots, and encourage them instead. If it takes me badgering you into it, so be it. Go rain on someone else's parade, outside of aviation. We don't need any more dream killers, there's enough of them around already. Like njmac's inlaws . . . .

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4 minutes ago, Hank said:

And as for Byron's 8000 hours before he felt safe enough to buy a plane, few non-professional pilots accrue that many hours in their lifetimes. How much transfers from flying 747s to flying a Mooney anyway? Comfort and familiarity with IFR procedures, and talking on the radio, not much else. Airline pilots have accidents in little planes all the time, that's why so many of them are unwilling to fly single engine at night, over water, in IMC and a host of other conditions that GA-only pilots routinely fly in.

Enroute, the same. Terminal environment and approach, a lot. The M20J is a numbers airplane. Just like a jet. Get 8 knots slow from your Vref number (begins with a 7), and you pay.  Landing, not much. Theres not much overlap there. 77' eye height vs 7', is a shift.  Airline pilots do crash little planes but much less so than 70 hour private pilots in travelling airplanes.  If you take out the crashed with low time in type, its a lot less.  Thats why my insurance is half or a third  the cost.  Don't rush the process, it comes with time.

Edited by jetdriven
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14 hours ago, NJMac said:

Just like years don't give you wisdom, I don't necessarily buy the statement that hours give you wisdom.

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Try to follow the logic:

We acquire knowledge through experience. We need knowledge before we can acquire wisdom.

Therefore we must possess experience in order to have wisdom. Cannot have wisdom without experience. 

Now let's apply the logic to flying:

Experience is acquired through hours in type in the left seat. 

Therefore hours do give you wisdom.

Elementary my dear Watson, elementary!

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Its only low time pilots who say "hours don't mean shit".   Think about that.

Edited by jetdriven
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Not all hours are equal. A 6 hour flight cross country teaches you very little about stick and rudder skills. But 6 hours in the pattern teaches you very little about flight planning, weather, communicating with ATC, IFR procedures, etc.

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