'64 M20C crosswind limitations?

[ShuRugal]

Doing a bit of research into crosswind limits, can't seem to find any good numbers, and the manual does not mention nary a peep...

Doing my transition training with Lee 2 weeks ago, he commented that I seemed to be needing an awful lot of left rudder for the amount of crosswind we had (I don't remember the xwind component that day, but overall winds were ~6G12 IIRC, and wind was probably not more than 45 degrees off to the right).  Now, his bird is a 201, and I understand that the newer Mooneys have both a longer rudder and greater throw than the older ones, so maybe that accounts for why it seemed excessive to him?

 

Flying with my regular CFI this past Saturday, on the first landing, which had some nice swirly gusts to play with, I noticed that I was using a great deal of left rudder, probably 80% of what my leg would reach.  Once we got within 20 feet of the ground, it smoothed out and i relaxed to about half that amount for touchdown.  AWOS claimed "variable at 6 kts", but with as much deflection as I needed, i'm thinking there must have been a fair amount of low-level wind shear...

 

Either way, got me thinking, how do these birds hold up in a crosswind?  what'll they take before hitting full stop?  it seems like RH crosswinds are worse than LH crosswinds, but that's just my gut and I don't have any actual numbers to compare.

[steingar]

I tend to let the aircraft crab until I hit the runway environment.  That seems to work better for the Mooney.  Did it differently in the Cherokee, but it was a different airframe.  One problem I'm likely to have in the Mooney is if the crosswind exceeds my rudder authority.  In my Cherokee I'd just bring it in that much faster, give the controls more authority and slow down in ground effect.  I do that in the Mooney I might wind up floating to Pittsburg.  In the Mooney I think I'll probably go find a runway lined up better with the prevailing winds.  Thankfully my home airport has crossed runways, and if its that bad there's a 12K foot strip nearby.

[FloridaMan]

Make sure you're using both feet with your rudder input (think of it as lifting one and pushing with the other). People tend to tense up when things get uncomfortable and one leg fights the other allowing delayed or limited maximum control input. Getting a little behind will require even more input to correct; I suspect this may be what you experienced. I think of it like my feet are doing amplitude modulation with a carrier frequency when I'm landing in gusty conditions. 

[ShuRugal]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

Make sure you're using both feet with your rudder input (think of it as lifting one and pushing with the other). People tend to tense up when things get uncomfortable and one leg fights the other allowing delayed or limited maximum control input. Getting a little behind will require even more input to correct; I suspect this may be what you experienced. I think of it like my feet are doing amplitude modulation with a carrier frequency when I'm landing in gusty conditions. 

could be, but one of my landings with Lee, I was using so much pedal he had to move his feet for me.  If i was doing this, it wasn't much.

 

That said, it's definitely something I need to watch out for.  the pedals in the Mooney are half as high from the floor as the ones in the Tecnam, and I have to use a completely different foot arrangement, and I could see what you describe being a result of that.

[Hank]

I've yet to find too much crosswind, but my C has the full length rudder. There is no "limitation" for iur planes, because Mooney didn't write one for us.

Practically speaking, pilot ability is more of a limit than the airplane. You're at your crosswind limit when you can't keep the nose aligned with the runway centerline.

[Yetti]

Gusty crosswind I have had to switch from crab line up get shoved around, crab line up shoved around to a one wheel landing.   Gusty crosswind I will just go for the onewheel landing it keeps the wing down and from getting picked up.  I have done 14 gusting to 28.  The mooney is great crosswind plane.

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Gusty crosswind I have had to switch from crab line up get shoved around, crab line up shoved around to a one wheel landing.   Gusty crosswind I will just go for the onewheel landing it keeps the wing down and from getting picked up.  I have done 14 gusting to 28.  The mooney is great crosswind plane.

Sounds like my visit to KRAP, gusty like that and from 50° left of the runway. Guys at the FBO said I should come back on a windy day . . .

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, ShuRugal said:

Doing a bit of research into crosswind limits, can't seem to find any good numbers, and the manual does not mention nary a peep...

Doing my transition training with Lee 2 weeks ago, he commented that I seemed to be needing an awful lot of left rudder for the amount of crosswind we had (I don't remember the xwind component that day, but overall winds were ~6G12 IIRC, and wind was probably not more than 45 degrees off to the right).  Now, his bird is a 201, and I understand that the newer Mooneys have both a longer rudder and greater throw than the older ones, so maybe that accounts for why it seemed excessive to him?

 

Flying with my regular CFI this past Saturday, on the first landing, which had some nice swirly gusts to play with, I noticed that I was using a great deal of left rudder, probably 80% of what my leg would reach.  Once we got within 20 feet of the ground, it smoothed out and i relaxed to about half that amount for touchdown.  AWOS claimed "variable at 6 kts", but with as much deflection as I needed, i'm thinking there must have been a fair amount of low-level wind shear...

 

Either way, got me thinking, how do these birds hold up in a crosswind?  what'll they take before hitting full stop?  it seems like RH crosswinds are worse than LH crosswinds, but that's just my gut and I don't have any actual numbers to compare.

There are no "limitations", only the capabilities of man and machine. I've not maxed a short rudders short body. The long ruddered mid bodies will handle in excess of 20kts without too much drama.

[carusoam]

Practice full rudder authority at altitude...

This will give you a feeling of how much travel there is with the rudder pedals.

In a good cross-wind, you will probably be using nearly all of it while you modulate the input...

Try to get a feel for how much braking you also get when you deflect the rudder fully.

It isn't hard to run out of rudder with the 65C.

near the ground, you really want to be aware of the airspeed...power settings and flap positions... as the extra induced braking bleeds off significant amounts of energy...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[M20F]

7 hours ago, ShuRugal said:

I noticed that I was using a great deal of left rudder, probably 80% of what my leg would reach.  Once we got within 20 feet of the ground, it smoothed out and i relaxed to about half that amount for touchdown.  

You are using too much right aileron. 

[RLCarter]

The 2 things that I'm almost guaranteed when I fly is a X-wind for takeoff & landing and a headwind at cruise. My POH does not have a demonstrated X-wind, but I generally use a combination of rudder and dropping the wing with the winds we get here

[carusoam]

@ShuRugal Does your leg not reach the pedals when they are fully depressed?

I ask, because with your description, you might not have full rudder authority... could be a seat setting, or could be a rudder pedal extension...

My plane came with pedal extensions... so I don't run out of rudder pedal authority.

Something that can be tested on the ground.

 

Another thing to consider is the footwear that you are using...  There is a thread around here that covers that too...

 

I’m a Sperry driving moc guy... used to use the deck shoes before... no teak on my Mooney, anywhere... 

These things improve what you are feeling at the end of your leg.  Some footwear keeps you in the dark of wether you are on the pedals or not.  

Best regards,

-a-

[ShuRugal]

You are using too much right aileron. 

That makes sense, I had not considered the effect the interconnect would have.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[ShuRugal]

[mention=16465]ShuRugal[/mention] Does your leg not reach the pedals when they are fully depressed?
I ask, because with your description, you might not have full rudder authority... could be a seat setting, or could be a rudder pedal extension...
My plane came with pedal extensions... so I don't run out of rudder pedal authority.
Something that can be tested on the ground.
 
Another thing to consider is the footwear that you are using...  There is a thread around here that covers that too...
 
I’m a Sperry driving moc guy... used to use the deck shoes before... no teak on my Mooney, anywhere... 
These things improve what you are feeling at the end of your leg.  Some footwear keeps you in the dark of wether you are on the pedals or not.  
Best regards,
-a-

That might be a concern. I've found that to avoid accidental manipulation of the toe breaks on touchdown, I need to have the arch of my foot in the rudder bar, and press from my heels. Even with the seat fully forward, this makes the last little bit of the pedal difficult to reach, since I cannot get my toes involved.

I did run into a problem where one pair of boots that I have is so thick in the soles that I cannot tell what I am doing with the pedals. I now wear my super worn down Rockies to fly, I can feel gravel through the soles of that pair, much better.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

You might look up rudder pedal Extensions.... around here.

They can be purchased through an MSC.

There are some drawings around here as well for building your own (?)

Best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

Yeah, my POH has no cross wind limitations either.  Fine by me.

 

[Mooneymite]

If you're going to land in a strong crosswind, land on wet grass.  The tires don't complain at all when you land crabbed 30 degrees off runway heading.  

However, the "rollout" could be pretty exciting.  

[MyNameIsNobody]

17 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

If you're going to land in a strong crosswind, land on wet grass.  The tires don't complain at all when you land crabbed 30 degrees off runway heading.  

However, the "rollout" could be pretty exciting.  

Been there...Done that.

[Shadrach]

On 11/8/2017 at 4:59 PM, Skmoore63 said:

My 65C has a 13 mph recommended crosswind limit. The older Cs' have a smaller rudder area than the newer ones; reaching the stops on a landing does happen regularly. I've done some 20+ knot landings, it's busy!

Could you post a link or pic? I've never seen a "recommended crosswind limit" only demonstrated crosswind.

[Shadrach]

On 11/8/2017 at 4:25 PM, ShuRugal said:

Doing a bit of research into crosswind limits, can't seem to find any good numbers, and the manual does not mention nary a peep...

Doing my transition training with Lee 2 weeks ago, he commented that I seemed to be needing an awful lot of left rudder for the amount of crosswind we had (I don't remember the xwind component that day, but overall winds were ~6G12 IIRC, and wind was probably not more than 45 degrees off to the right).  Now, his bird is a 201, and I understand that the newer Mooneys have both a longer rudder and greater throw than the older ones, so maybe that accounts for why it seemed excessive to him?

 

Flying with my regular CFI this past Saturday, on the first landing, which had some nice swirly gusts to play with, I noticed that I was using a great deal of left rudder, probably 80% of what my leg would reach.  Once we got within 20 feet of the ground, it smoothed out and i relaxed to about half that amount for touchdown.  AWOS claimed "variable at 6 kts", but with as much deflection as I needed, i'm thinking there must have been a fair amount of low-level wind shear...

 

Either way, got me thinking, how do these birds hold up in a crosswind?  what'll they take before hitting full stop?  it seems like RH crosswinds are worse than LH crosswinds, but that's just my gut and I don't have any actual numbers to compare.

I don't think you're discribing low level wind shear. Winds diminish as one gets closer to the ground because of surface friction. It is very common to find the need for less and less wind correction input as the aircraft enters ground effect.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Shadrach

[ShuRugal]

I don't think you're discribing low level wind shear. Winds diminish as one get's closer to the ground because of surface friction. It is very common to find the need for less and less wind correction input as the aircraft enters ground effect.

That could be what I was experiencing, but the difference seemed both more abrupt and of greater magnitude than what I am used to.

Of course, 40hrs in the Tecnam vs 8 in the Mooney, could easily be a problem in the seat-to-yoke interface.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, ShuRugal said:

Of course, 40hrs in the Tecnam vs 8 in the Mooney, could easily be a problem in the seat-to-yoke interface.
 

Your Mooney is both heavier and more aerodynamic than your LSA was, resulting in you being blown around much less by the wind.

[cctsurf]

Note that demonstrated crosswind component is a number of things which are somewhat unhelpful.  First of all, it is, as has been said earlier in this thread, the measure of the maximum wind that was recorded during the flight (possibly that day).  Second, it is without the benefit of rudder input.  Third, it is a measure of how far they took it in testing, how brave the test pilot was, it is not a calculated number from the strength of the airplane.

In my transition training, one day I had scheduled turned out to be immensely windy with a 35 gusting 45mph 90 degree cross wind.  I was ready to cancel, however, my instructor said that the Mooney can easily handle it and wanted me to experience it.  (short rudder, short body)  I was dubious, but it was his airplane.  He's flown mooneys almost exclusively.  We went up and flew the pattern a bit faster than normal and didn't use flaps on landing.  When I was flying low over the runway as a test for the next pattern when I would set it down, he noted that I was using too much rudder.  We did a couple of patterns and called it a day because it was quite bumpy, but we made a number of acceptable landings (some better than I sometimes make without a crosswind).  I think we limit ourselves with all this worry about personal limitations instead of practicing to perform to a standard.  Practice flying in crosswinds and challenge your abilities.  To quote my dad, "If you can't fly in a cross wind, you can't fly in South Dakota..."  I've personally gotten wimpy more recently...I need to go out and do some practice.

[Queue the safety nazis...]

[cctsurf]

16 minutes ago, daver328 said:

35G45 @ 90° .... sure buddy

Took a second to find it, it was 8/1/2012...  Here's the weather report from Yankton, SD.  I was ~12 miles SE in Vermillion.  I can post a picture of the logbook entry if you want...

https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KYKN/2012/8/1/DailyHistory.html?req_city=KVMR&req_state=SD&req_statename=South+Dakota&reqdb.zip=57069&reqdb.magic=4&reqdb.wmo=99999

[Hank]

1 hour ago, cctsurf said:

Took a second to find it, it was 8/1/2012...  Here's the weather report from Yankton, SD.  I was ~12 miles SE in Vermillion.  I can post a picture of the logbook entry if you want...

https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KYKN/2012/8/1/DailyHistory.html?req_city=KVMR&req_state=SD&req_statename=South+Dakota&reqdb.zip=57069&reqdb.magic=4&reqdb.wmo=99999

Yankton is a nice airport, 2 runways and everything! Full service fuel,  and a free tow to the pump and back. Now I need to find the pictures, it was pre-cell phone camera . . .