ICON A5: A Great Airplane With a Deadly Appeal

[Shadrach]

On 11/9/2017 at 2:12 PM, bradp said:

additional video for context of what type of maneuvering was being performed in the pilots plane prior to the crash:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5066865/amp/Roy-Halladay-practiced-crazy-low-stunts-plane-wife.html

I'll be the voice of opposition. Certainly low level flight presents added risk and reduced margin. That being said, the only thing I can infer from the video is that he's flying low over the water. There is no maneuvering in the video. Daily mail is sensationalizing a low level run up the coast. That video shows nothing out of the ordinary for amphibious operations. He was just close enough to the beach to be recorded.

 

Edit- Now that I've seen the whole clip, there is certainly some low level maneuvering going on. Odd that DM chose that benign 7sec of footage over the rest. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Shadrach

[aviatoreb]

52 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I'll be the voice of opposition. Certainly low level flight presents added risk and reduced margin. That being said, the only thing I can infer from the video is that he's flying low over the water. There is no maneuvering in the video. Daily mail is sensationalizing a low level run up the coast. That video shows nothing out of the ordinary for amphibious operations. He was just close enough to the beach to be recorded.

Looks like some low level maneuvering going on to me.

[Mooneymite]

Has this already been posted?

 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Looks like some low level maneuvering going on to me.

I saw maneuvering in the first clip and some of the pics. My only point is post accident, every image of Roy in his plane anywhere near the ground is labeled as dangerous, low level, hot dogging.   I think that the current informations suggests that low level maneuvering was the cause of the accident, but that doesn't mean that every image captured was Roy cheating death.

[Shadrach]

29 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I thought I saw him push the nose over from maybe 500 feet AGL in what had to have been a significantly less than 1 g dive down to right on the deck, where he leveled off, in one of the videos.  Also probably 45 degree bank angles at what appeared to be no greater than 100 feet AGL. Of course these aren’t meant to be accurate numbers. Just estimates.  At altitude, fine, but I know if I saw someone flying like that that low to the ground or water, not to mention with nearby spectators, I would be thinking that it was just a matter of time before he bought the farm. 

I was only speaking to the 7sec clip imbedded in the DM article. After watching the full video, there is quite a bit of low level maneuvering.

As to the negative G noseover towards water, I can't fathom what would be fun about that. I have made low alt runs down the coast and over large lakes. It has some short term appeal but not a place to spend a lot of time.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Shadrach

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

I saw maneuvering in the first clip and some of the pics. My only point is post accident, every image of Roy in his plane anywhere near the ground is labeled as dangerous, low level, hot dogging.   I think that the current informations suggests that low level maneuvering was the cause of the accident, but that doesn't mean that every image captured was Roy cheating death.

I agree 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Jester: "That was some of the best flying I've seen to date — right up to the part where you got killed."

[aviatoreb]

On 11/10/2017 at 1:18 PM, Jerry 5TJ said:

Jester: "That was some of the best flying I've seen to date — right up to the part where you got killed."

I was thinking about this crash this weekend.

I bet the pilot was a superbly skilled pilot.  I mean here is a superbly physically talented guy who was literally one of the best pro athletes in the world in his chosen sport.  That takes balance, strength, and courage.  Sometimes those sort of skills can be dangerous in other areas, like flying which in a different way rewards the modest to know when to make certain kinds of decisions.  I bet he was able to make those low pass wave runner moved 99 times out of 100 with no problem.

Sort of a nonsequeter but also about talented people - I remember once seeing a certain neurosurgeon I know of regionally at a local airport doing a pre flight on his airplane.  He was walking around his airplane with a dictaphone in his hand dictating details of an upcoming surgery, I could tell by over hearing him as this was next to my tie down at that airport.  So see he was giving only half attention to each.  I am not sure if I was more not wanting to be a passenger in that flight, or the guy who's surgery he was only giving half attention while doing his preflight.  Either way you see it really stuck out in my memory as that was maybe 7 or 8 years ago.

[steingar]

On 11/9/2017 at 1:42 AM, Aviationinfo said:

Whoever made that video wasn't of much use, was he?  Wow.  He made his youtube video to show all his friends but it appears he forgot about trying to see if the poor guy flying it might have survived somehow.  Not impressive.

I doubt I would have made a rescue attempt.  Lots of things to snag underwater, and I've no training in water rescues.  I'd rather drown than endanger others trying to rescue me.  Plenty of folks have perished trying to rescue people from the water.

[ArtVandelay]

36 minutes ago, steingar said:

I doubt I would have made a rescue attempt.  Lots of things to snag underwater, and I've no training in water rescues.  I'd rather drown than endanger others trying to rescue me.  Plenty of folks have perished trying to rescue people from the water.

News report that it was in 4’ of water, which is probably around 75°, in daylight...not exactly what I would consider a high risk situation. But I wasn’t there, maybe there is other factors like avgas floating on top of water, or something else that raised the risk level.

[Marauder]

I suspect that with only 4 feet of water, there was a high likelihood of blunt force trauma if he caught a wing and went inverted. 

[bradp]

Plus there may have been an injury pattern that was observed to be "incompatible with life."  We weren't there.  All we have is the video of the fisherman in the canoe looking skiff and the idiots filming.

 

[Aviationinfo]

6 hours ago, steingar said:

I doubt I would have made a rescue attempt.  Lots of things to snag underwater, and I've no training in water rescues.  I'd rather drown than endanger others trying to rescue me.  Plenty of folks have perished trying to rescue people from the water.

That's a fair point.   

I would guess however that you probably have the decency not to circle a crash site and shoot video in the first place.  This young voyeur just really, really disappointed me.

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Aviationinfo said:

That's a fair point.   

I would guess however that you probably have the decency not to circle a crash site and shoot video in the first place.  This young voyeur just really, really disappointed me.

It’s the modern world where everyone wants to post their sh*t on “Brag Book”  

Common decency and thoughts for the people involved in an accident don’t even register anymore.

Clarence

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

It’s the modern world where everyone wants to post their sh*t on “Brag Book”  

Common decency and thoughts for the people involved in an accident don’t even register anymore.

Clarence

Maybe some or even many people didn’t have such common decency in the past only they didn’t used to have the technologies to post a selfie of themselves dancing in front of a dying man.

Edited November 15, 2017 by aviatoreb

[Danb]

Clarence and Erik, this appears to what we or they have become. Such a shame.

[PTK]

Let’s not be so quick to criticize. I don't see someone dancing around a dying man. That’s ridiculous! 

On the contrary I see someone extremely distraught and shocked. He inquired about calling 911 as was done. He most likely felt he didn’t know what else to do if anything and how to help. If he did something wrong he could’ve been found liable if he failed to do the right thing and caused more harm than good. Also maybe he was afraid of an explosion risking his own life. Who knows what was going through his mind? I certainly don’t know because I wasn’t there.

I do agree it’s a shame that's so easy for some to criticize. That's the real shame.

[Marauder]

Let’s not be so quick to criticize. I don't see someone dancing around a dying man. That’s ridiculous! 
On the contrary I see someone extremely distraught and shocked. He inquired about calling 911 as was done. He most likely felt he didn’t know what else to do if anything and how to help. If he did something wrong he could’ve been found liable if he failed to do the right thing and caused more harm than good. Also maybe he was afraid of an explosion risking his own life. Who knows? I certainly don’t lnow because I wasn’t there.
I do agree it’s a shame. It’s so easy for some to criticize. 

Maybe I was brought up a little differently. I was taught to help those in distress. Whether it was a soon to be fatal automobile accident where you can offer only words of support & care or diving in and pulling the drowning kid out of the deep end.

Either way, I would have been in the water. That is the way my parents brought me up.

I would really hate to hear that he survived the initial crash only to have drown. Wouldn’t you?


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[PTK]

On 11/15/2017 at 1:35 PM, Marauder said:

 

Maybe I was brought up a little differently. I was taught to help those in distress. Whether it was a soon to be fatal automobile accident where you can offer only words of support & care or diving in and pulling the drowning kid out of the deep end.

Either way, I would have been in the water. That is the way my parents brought me up.

I would really hate to hear that he survived the initial crash only to have drown. Wouldn’t you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

I don't know what I woul've done if anything because I wasn't there. Were you? Maybe I would or maybe I wouldn’t. And being in health care I’m fully aware that the good samaritan law is geared towards protecting health care personnel from being sued. However if I felt my own life would be endangered I wouldn’t. My family and children are much more important to me and I to them. Aren't yours? That's how my parents brought me up.

Sometimes all you can do is call 911 and pray for them. You want to do more but just can’t. How many times have you heard of an SAR being called off? 

[ArtVandelay]

However If I felt my own life would be endangered I wouldn’t. My family and children are much more important to me.

Too bad he didn’t have the same feelings, that said...

It was 4 feet of relatively calm and clear 75° water, not the North Atlantic, on the video I saw I never saw him express a fear of it exploding. But maybe that was edited out.

In the end it appears PIC decided to hot dog it and in return left his family to deal with the aftermath. I feel for his family, my feelings for him are less sympathetic.

Not to stereotype but it sounds like an ex athlete who was trying to recapture the adrenaline rush he had playing baseball.

 

[Guest]

I’m not criticizing the people who arrived at the crash site for what they didn’t do.  As none of us were there we don’t know the circumstances.

My point is the posting to the internet.  My feelings would be different if the person who filmed the accident had simply passed the video to the NTSB to further the investigation, instead of posting it.

Clarence

[rpcc]

I do think there is room for criticism.  The "Dude's" video establishes a timeline of only about 30 seconds until they were on site after the crash.   Given the conditions described at the site, I'm sure all of you posters here would have been in the water trying to help.   If he didn't die from impact injuries, he most likely drowned probably right near the cockpit in 4 ft of water with 6 people watching from two boats..  

TMZ, likely paid the "Dudes" for this video and broadcast it.  Not sure how any editor approve the end of this footage.  It's one thing for the Dudes to make the video, it's completely different for it to be broadcast nationally by a network - but what can you expect these days..

 

[DaV8or]

Wow. A lot of high horses around here. I bet every single one of us participating in this thread watched that video in it's entirety at least once. Some of you more than once. Who's the sick voyeur again? We all knew before we clicked on the play button that Roy was dead. Why did we watch it then? Once there was no more flying in the video and it was all cussing by the four letter bro, how many of you then turned it off? I bet none. We all wanted to see the sorry wreck. What in the world were we hoping to "learn" from this video??

It's great to know that we have so many natural born 1st responders around here. You guys would have been like a school of piranha swarming that wreck to find the dead body. Look at that wreck. You know he was dead.

The thing is, the rest of humanity is not like you guys and it never was. It's not a failure of society, or just the horrible people of today, it's always been this way. Psychologists have studied this phenomenon and it turns out a small percentage of us will run into a burning building, no questions asked, but the larger majority of us will not. Again, this is a human variation thing, not a societal thing.

Face it, YouTube videos like this is where we get our news footage now. In the past, they used to pay professionals to rush to the scene of a crash to film/tape footage of a crash so that we could watch it at home. Now they just don't have to keep a guy on staff so much.

During the burning of the Hindenburg footage we have all seen, did any of you criticize the camera man and reporter for not throwing down the camera and microphone and rushing to help the victims of that tragedy? At least in the case of the Hindenburg, there were survivors and some can be seen jumping from the burning craft. Other than the cussing and mindless blather, there is little difference between the coverage of the Hindenburg and coverage of the Icon crash.

In fact, we should all be thanking the Bro. Without his video, this thread likely would never have been posted and we would have missed out on all this entertainment.

[aviatoreb]

22 minutes ago, DaV8or said:

Wow. A lot of high horses around here. I bet every single one of us participating in this thread watched that video in it's entirety at least once. Some of you more than once. Who's the sick voyeur again? We all knew before we clicked on the play button that Roy was dead. Why did we watch it then? Once there was no more flying in the video and it was all cussing by the four letter bro, how many of you then turned it off? I bet none. We all wanted to see the sorry wreck. What in the world were we hoping to "learn" from this video??

It's great to know that we have so many natural born 1st responders around here. You guys would have been like a school of piranha swarming that wreck to find the dead body. Look at that wreck. You know he was dead.

The thing is, the rest of humanity is not like you guys and it never was. It's not a failure of society, or just the horrible people of today, it's always been this way. Psychologists have studied this phenomenon and it turns out a small percentage of us will run into a burning building, no questions asked, but the larger majority of us will not. Again, this is a human variation thing, not a societal thing.

Face it, YouTube videos like this is where we get our news footage now. In the past, they used to pay professionals to rush to the scene of a crash to film/tape footage of a crash so that we could watch it at home. Now they just don't have to keep a guy on staff so much.

During the burning of the Hindenburg footage we have all seen, did any of you criticize the camera man and reporter for not throwing down the camera and microphone and rushing to help the victims of that tragedy? At least in the case of the Hindenburg, there were survivors and some can be seen jumping from the burning craft. Other than the cussing and mindless blather, there is little difference between the coverage of the Hindenburg and coverage of the Icon crash.

In fact, we should all be thanking the Bro. Without his video, this thread likely would never have been posted and we would have missed out on all this entertainment.

From what dark place did you conjure that nasty rant?

[carusoam]

It takes a lot of bystanders to save the life of a guy in need.

The first step was these guys going to the scene.  If they were lame or do nothing kind of people, their video would be from afar with statements of 'what should we do next?'

Saving a life can be as simple as dialing 911 and reporting what you see...

 

I have seen this process at work, up close.  A  'save' started with a mom seeing a jogger fall next to the road. She had a cell phone... the next person to arrive started CPR. A bus driver stopped to help. It took a while for an ambulance to arrive... no videos were taken... 

The odd thrown together team saved the jogger's life. Fortunately for him, he is still with us today... probably wouldn't be if the phone toting Mom didn't arrive. Or the CPR starting next person. Or the pro EMT. Or the......

Not everybody has the current skills to save a life.  You just do what you can, even if it is standby and wave to the next helper... The Good Samaritan law covers everybody, so I have been told.... 

Keep in mind, I See life from a brighter side than most...

Best regards,

-a-