Virginia Accident

[KSMooniac]

Thanks for your candor here, and as others already said, we're so glad you and your family are around to give us the story!

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

Finally in agreement !!

Solar eclipses do happen, but not often. 

[Alan Fox]

16 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

Thank you for sharing.......Glad everyone is Okay.....

Curious if the insurance company will pay out being that you have admitted that it is your fault in such detail.....

Who is responsible to pay for the home repairs etc......is it fair to make the insurance pay?

If they do pay out I wonder if your premiums will go up on the next airplane if you decide to get one......not sure I would have shared so much of the details before the lawyers got done eating....

It will affect future insurance rates , As I have been rated for a hail claim (ground)  

[Alan Fox]

18 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

Thank you for sharing.......Glad everyone is Okay.....

Curious if the insurance company will pay out being that you have admitted that it is your fault in such detail.....

Who is responsible to pay for the home repairs etc......is it fair to make the insurance pay?

If they do pay out I wonder if your premiums will go up on the next airplane if you decide to get one......not sure I would have shared so much of the details before the lawyers got done eating....

The insurance will pay as long as it was not intentional , and his medical , and certificates are current ,   That's why they call it an accident , and not an "on purpose "   Can we please keep the conversation to the actual accident , and not concern ourselves with things that are NONE OF OUR BUISNESS ..... 

[EricJ]

54 minutes ago, Cooperd0g said:

I shared the story here because I wanted other people to learn and I didn't want to hide anything. That is they way we do mishap reporting in the Navy. I gave the exact same information to the NTSB duty officer and the FAA inspector at the scene after I was out of the hospital. I showed the FAA inspector all of my flight planning, take off performance data, weight and balance, etc. 

Thanks tons for letting us know what happened and for your candor and openness.  And most of all I'm glad that you and your family came out of it okay, that's the main thing.

I hope you're able to get back in the saddle soon and everybody recovers better than ever.

[gsxrpilot]

Thanks for posting here and letting us in on the details. As others have said, we all really admire your willingness to open up about this accident.  Personally as a pilot with a descent number of Mooney hours, but without nearly the training, ratings, or total time that you have, I'm looking much further back up the decision chain so I can ensure I don't do the same.

My first thought is that for a GA pilot like myself, I probably shouldn't go into a field that short unless I'm solo and light. But certainly before going into that field...

1. I need enough hours in my specific Mooney to know my take off distances, climb performance, etc, at different weights to the point that I know the plane better than the POH that might have been more accurate when the plane was new
2. If 500 ft of runway makes the difference between success and failure, that's not enough margin for my level of training/expertise/experience. 

My second thought is that if I did go into a short field, I should try to mitigate that decision by taking on less fuel and giving myself an additional margin of safety and increased performance with a lighter load.

My third thought is to certainly use the entire runway including any available displaced threshold.

And lastly, once lifting off, a route over the shortest obstacles and out over the water would give more room to climb.

I did a trip around the western US in my M20C a summer ago and went into many high altitude airports. There were several times I bypassed more convenient airports in favor of longer runways because of high DA. And anytime I was arriving to a new airport where high DA and rising terrain or obstacles would be in play, I would try to get as much info on the airport environment from pattern altitude before landing. This way I'd know where to go if I had a problem on take off. 

Just the musings of a low time GA pilot trying very hard to become a high time GA pilot.

As with everyone else, I'm so glad you and your family are still around to tell the story. It certainly benefits all of us and especially those of us who haven't benefitted from the excellent training and experience that you have as a Naval Aviator.

 

[steingar]

Something I don't get in all this and am open to the wisdom of the community.  I'm pretty certain my C could get out of 2K feet, I've gotten in and out of 2.8K over trees with tons room to spare.  I might try and get it into 2K feet if I were feeling brave, but I honestly don't think I myself am up to that.  I think someone better on the stick than I could get my C into 2K feet.  I don't have the POH in front of me, but even loaded I think there's still some room.  So why is anyone saying we've no business landing a 2K foot strip?  

[DonMuncy]

1 hour ago, Alan Fox said:

I don't think a "nasa" report applies here..

Why not. I was under the impression that unless it was intentional, was a criminal violation, or you had taken advantage of the process in the last 5(?) years, you could do it. Am I wrong?

[Hank]

12 minutes ago, steingar said:

Something I don't get in all this and am open to the wisdom of the community.  I'm pretty certain my C could get out of 2K feet, I've gotten in and out of 2.8K over trees with tons room to spare.  I might try and get it into 2K feet if I were feeling brave, but I honestly don't think I myself am up to that.  I think someone better on the stick than I could get my C into 2K feet.  I don't have the POH in front of me, but even loaded I think there's still some room.  So why is anyone saying we've no business landing a 2K foot strip?  

Before moving back to Alabama, I used to visit a 2000' grass strip on the riverbank in my C. Getting in and out wasn't hard, mostly because I was based at an obstructed 3000' paved field [and am now at a paved 3200' field with a parallel taxiway], but I never went in or out heavy--my personal limit was 2 people and half tanks.

Ground roll should be ~800-1000' for a loaded C at seal level. The question becomes how tall were the trees, and how close to the departure end of the runway?

And of course, "personal limits" are personal, not written or regulated . . . It is perfectly fine for your personal limits to not match mine.

[ArtVandelay]

Something I don't get in all this and am open to the wisdom of the community.  I'm pretty certain my C could get out of 2K feet, I've gotten in and out of 2.8K over trees with tons room to spare.  I might try and get it into 2K feet if I were feeling brave, but I honestly don't think I myself am up to that.  I think someone better on the stick than I could get my C into 2K feet.  I don't have the POH in front of me, but even loaded I think there's still some room.  So why is anyone saying we've no business landing a 2K foot strip?  

My J requires 2000' to clear 50' obstacle on a hot day. I would add 500 just because of my skill level is less than the test pilot, so my minimum would be 2500', and I would try to schedule takeoff for early morning to increase my margin of error.

 

[DanM20C]

Just now, steingar said:

Something I don't get in all this and am open to the wisdom of the community.  I'm pretty certain my C could get out of 2K feet, I've gotten in and out of 2.8K over trees with tons room to spare.  I might try and get it into 2K feet if I were feeling brave, but I honestly don't think I myself am up to that.  I think someone better on the stick than I could get my C into 2K feet.  I don't have the POH in front of me, but even loaded I think there's still some room.  So why is anyone saying we've no business landing a 2K foot strip?  

I don't think it was unreasonable to go into this airport in a C.  My 1969 C manual says 1760ft (@gross weight) to clear a 50ft obstacle at sea level @ 100F.  A few years ago our main runway was closed for the summer while it was being extended. Our "Short" runway (2500ft) was shortened even more to 1950 and left open.  I operated off it all summer with my C, but it certainly decreased safety margins.  There were a few times I opted to not fly due to unfavorable winds or high DA's.  I found the TO performance to match the book very closely. 

The issue with this accident is the intersection departure. CooperDog has been very candid about that. 

I'm always leery of intersection departures.  Leaving the Mooney Summit this year I declined a intersection departure on taxiway S rwy 16.  The King Air behind me took the intersection.  I figured 10Kft is better than 6.5Kft. 

Cheers,

Dan

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

The older Mooneys do NOT have a release on the interior of the baggage door , like our J models do....

Easily added.

[Seth]

6 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

The older Mooneys do NOT have a release on the interior of the baggage door , like our J models do....

There is a kit to add it, this is a good point for a situation just like this.  Not all situations would have the baggage door clear, but it’s a potential life saving option.

-Seth

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Cooperd0g said:

I shared the story here because I wanted other people to learn and I didn't want to hide anything. That is they way we do mishap reporting in the Navy. I gave the exact same information to the NTSB duty officer and the FAA inspector at the scene after I was out of the hospital. I showed the FAA inspector all of my flight planning, take off performance data, weight and balance, etc. 

Thank you for posting the details Cooper.  If it can happen to someone with your training and experience, it can happen to anyone.  I hope that you find another Mooney that suits your needs. Be well!

Edited October 9, 2017 by Shadrach

[DXB]

Best I can tell from Google Earth, the pilot left about 2000 ft to the tree line by choosing to depart from the intersection past rwy 01.  The performance chart indicates he needed about 1600ft to clear 50ft trees at gross weight in calm winds.  That margin goes away awfully fast with a less than perfect plane, a tiny shift to a tail wind, and/or any other little pilot error.  If a Top Gun grad can't execute this takeoff safely, then there's probably no one else here who I would count on doing so reliably, irrespective of their Mooney experience.  

Thanks so much to Cooperd0g for sharing.  It makes me rethink how I approach a little 1981 ft strip where I land occasionally for practice.  

[Seth]

1 hour ago, Alan Fox said:

I don't think a "nasa" report applies here..

I’d file it anyway.  Just in case something does apply and he can “walk away” from that element.

-Seth

[gsxrpilot]

The purpose of my post was not to say that a C can't go into a 2000 ft strip, but that my skills might not be up the the level of the guy who wrote the POH.  After 400 hours in my M20C, I was very comfortable with less than 2000 ft and pretty much any surface. But it wasn't until quite a number of hours that I was confident in the combination of my skills and the performance of my 50 year old Mooney.

It looks to me like the intersection takes off 500 feet. At my skill level and experience with the specific Mooney, I'd want more margin than that. And that would have to come from more runway or less weight or both.

[Seth]

CooperDog-

Thrilled you and your family are safe.  I have two kids in car seats now and we flew the Mooney on vacation last month.  I can only imagine the thoughts going through your mind when trapped in the airplane on the ground with fuel leaking.  

Thank you for sharing your first hand account - it will help others.  

-Seth

 

[steingar]

36 minutes ago, DanM20C said:

...The issue with this accident is the intersection departure. CooperDog has been very candid about that. 

Yeah, I get that.  My C could get out of 2K feet loaded.  Out of 1500, not so much.  There was just a comment about how a J shouldn't take off from 2K feet.  Thought perhaps there was something I didn't know.

I don't think I have 100 hours on my C, and I won't be going into anything as small as 2K anytime soon.  I might some day.

[Bart Chilcott]

Holy cow that paint is identical to mine! 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Whiskey Charlie

[Gary0747]

The footwell crushed around my legs, but I was able to pull them out on my own only with minor abrasions. My plexiglas windshield was shattered and I have some lacerations on my head and bruising on my right arm. My wife was in the back seat next to our 13 month old son, who was in his car seat. My wife has a fair amount of bruising and soreness. My son has minor rash from his car seat restraints. Fortunately the home was unoccupied. We are very fortunate

 

I wonder where was the CG?  It looks like two pasangers in back and an empty seat in front?  Full luggage?  Rear CG makes it easer for departure stall.

[Cooperd0g]

CG was towards the rear, but within limits. 

[exM20K]

Lots of good advice in the thread.  Let me add another suggestion: be mindful of the winds aloft.  Light & variable at the surface may be a significant tail wind just over the tree line - exactly where you don't want a push or loss of IAS.  If 3000' winds are, for example, 230@20, I'm not taking off to the north.  Glad you and family are well.

[cliffy]

You know, CD is a stand up guy. I'll fly with him anytime he gets another airplane. I'd volunteer to be the first to go with him. Not many would openly talk of a mistake just for the possibility that it might help someone else in the future. I think his posting has done just that with several here. His integrity is beyond reproach. 

We all have made mistakes in airplanes (even me:-). Some of us are alive just by luck. I've been around this business for over 50 years and the best education I've had has been reading of others misfortunes. I've done it since I was a Student Pilot. My first instructor got me interested in doing just that. 

As I have posted several times before I'll say it again-

One is never a safe pilot until one becomes "tempered". One doesn't become tempered until one makes a mistake in an airplane that scares the living crap out of you and YOU know you made the mistake. Once tempered, flying takes on a completely different perspective. 

CD, if we ever meet dinner is on me. It would be my honor.

[Bob_Belville]

Several here have cited their Owners Manual's performance charts.

It is probably appropriate to remind ourselves that our 50 year old airframes being pulled along by engines rebuilt or overhauled many hours and years ago and being flown by someone other that Bill Wheat or Mikey Miles might have lost a step or two along the way and that in addition to allowances for DA, runway slope, air in tires, wind gusts, bugs on wings, ... a significant GOK factor should be applied to "distance to clear 50' obstacle".