Continental TSIO-360-MB1 Cam corrosion

[carusoam]

Ability to machine Ti is spreading further and wider.  Making it lower cost to manufacture parts...

ATI Alleghenies technology... Is my favorite producer of alloys in this arena...

https://www.atimetals.com/markets/aerospace

But if you had the choice to buy Boeing or ATI... Boeing has had better returns...

PP thoughts only. Not an investor, Metals guru,  or financial advisor...

One thing really cool about these pock marks, and the effect they have on the lubricated surfaces...

It depends on how big, percentage wise, the pock marks are, compared to the total surface area being used.

The cam and lifter only have lines that are in contact with each other at one time. These lines of contact are broken by the pocks.  If the pocks are small and spread out, the force of the lifter on the cam is still going to be spread out...  if the pocks are too large, in the wrong place, or too many, the micro film of oil doesn't support the force of the lifter on the cam's lobe. Interruption of the film of oil, or allowing one metal surface to contact the other starts the aggressive wear process.  The metal bits will start showing up if this happens...

See the cam lobes where the track of the lifters leaves a shiny surface. If pock marks are in this shiny surface, this is the bad spot to have them....  

only trying to give a feel for the logic that goes into lubrication of surfaces. Tribologists study the lubrication approximation. This is the theory that pressure builds when oil gets squeezed between two metal surfaces... the closer the surfaces get, the more the pressure builds.  If the oil is missing, or allowed to drain out of the way, the metals will contact each other in a harmful way... pock marks are bad...

PP thoughts blended with ChE theory...

Best regards,

-a-

Let me know if you read this and it made sense.  

[Pissed'Ole-Pete]

6 hours ago, teejayevans said:

Titanium is already used in jet engines and aircraft bodies (maybe only military). I believe the cadmium restriction was referring to bolts, rivets, and other long term exposure. Casual contact from tools was not a problem, it had to be at higher than room temperature. Oh yea, and silver is a problem too, so all you mechanics with silver plated tools, watch it

 

Confucius say "It is better to keep mouth shut, and have whole world believe you dumb, than open same, and remove all doubt."

The air force went to considerable effort and expense in 1974-1975 to keep Cadmium coated tools away from their brand new Titanium F15's that I am inclined to suspect reason and cause. Obviously your advanced degree in Metallurgy allows you to make snide comments, especially to new members trying to share their experience. Did you by chance serve in uniform? If so When? Where? and in what capacity?

 

[carusoam]

Try to be nice in your first posts, Confucius...  

We have several military pilots of record...

We also have pilots in military families...

We also have a few threads that might interest military pilots, like this one...

People have listed when they served, what branch they served in, what planes they flew/supported.

A universal challenge is trying to understand what somebody actually meant when they posted something.

Try to avoid the obvious blow 'em out of the sky response.  Even when it is other-wise the proper response.  There aren't enough wingmen around. We can't afford to lose one.

If you haven't seen the power of MS in action... use the search function.  The guy you just shot at may be the guy holding an answer to YOUR next Mooney challenge.

Show how you can Lead by example... 

MS is on the internet, but it is not the internet...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Pissed'Ole-Pete]

 

41 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Try to be nice in your first few posts, Confucius...  

Best regards,

-a-

I believe I was being very nice, until a snide comment was made. Then I dropped the "very" but still remained nice.

I simply quoted my friend Confucius, I am Pissed'Ole-Pete

 

[carusoam]

I'm glad to have met you Pete,

Who is your guy riding the Rockets?

we have another thread that may be of interest to you...

That one was set up when MS was pretty young... it re-surfaces each year

Best regards,

-a-

[Pissed'Ole-Pete]

28 minutes ago, carusoam said:

I'm glad to have met you Pete,

Who is your guy riding the Rockets?

we have another thread that may be of interest to you...

That one was set up when MS was pretty young... it re-surfaces each year

Best regards,

-a-

My last assignment in the Air Force was with the 35TFW. I was a "Wild Weasel mechanic" the "rockets" are AGM78's (a Navy weapon, adopted for land ops) the "driver" was a "Wild Weasel" He actually looks like a lot of the guys who flew the F105G.

I just fixed them back then. They wouldn't let me brake them.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Pissed'Ole-Pete
typo

[ArtVandelay]

Confucius say "It is better to keep mouth shut, and have whole world believe you dumb, than open same, and remove all doubt."

The air force went to considerable effort and expense in 1974-1975 to keep Cadmium coated tools away from their brand new Titanium F15's that I am inclined to suspect reason and cause. Obviously your advanced degree in Metallurgy allows you to make snide comments, especially to new members trying to share their experience. Did you by chance serve in uniform? If so When? Where? and in what capacity?


 

Wow, I even included a smiley.

First, 1974 was a long time ago, titanium wasn't even used until after WWII, when the very complicated and expensive process was discovered to process it. It's very reactive at higher temperatures and has to be very pure. There was a airplane accident (don't remember flight number) that had one of the engine blades break apart it tore through fuselage. Turn out it was a defect in the casting of the titanium blade, a foreign object the size of a grain of sand.
The SR71 Blackbird I think is the first major use of Ti by the military, we got the Ti from the Soviet Union BTW. Which I believe is where the no cadmium tools thing got started, and either they didn't know the temperature limits or they didn't know how you would use tools (on hot engine parts) so they simply prohibited them.
Now in 2017 we are still working on the chemistry, both making the purification process better and alloys. Heck, we are still working on the science of combustion engines.

And speaking of using the military as source:
Air Force instruction manual teaches throttle (power) is primary means of controlling airspeed, Navy manual teaches it's pitch (AOA).

[tony]

On 8/4/2017 at 9:43 AM, jetdriven said:

Rollers won't prevent corrosion but they eliminate spalling. Spalling is from sliding friction. Rollers don't slide. 

The roller bearings are not worth the extra money you have to pay the factory to install them, and the failure mode sucks. He should just do a field overhaul for the engine he has and put the extra money into flying. 

[jetdriven]

Show me a spalled roller lifter. Show me a roller cam that  failed and required an early overhaul. ONE. They've been in service 12 years now. 

 I can find perhaps 50 owners just on this board (including me)  with spalled flat lifters. At breakfast one day all 4 of us were mooney owners and all 4 had a 1-year old engine because of a spalled cam and lifters.

The theoretical failure mode does suck,  the roller locks up and slides on the cam and eats  It up...   Kinda like cam spalling, except, like retread tires jamming in the wheel well, nobody can seem to find any documented evidence of this ever happening.  The failure mode of a crankshaft snapping in two or a main bearing spinning also sucks, but unlike roller lifters falling, it actually has happened. Don't like something because you don't like it because, well gosh no data to base it on, so let's go on feelings     . I prefer data-driven decisions. The airplane and the engine shop don't care what you feel. 

   It's expensive and the factory is known for being a hassle to deal with, but to say they are not superior technology  or a better solution is willful ignorance. It solves the problem of cam spalling and early overhaul for that reason.  It's almost like fox and sour grapes here. 

Just show me some data

Edited August 7, 2017 by jetdriven

[Marcopolo]

  Does Continental even have roller cam/lifters available as a replacement on the TSIO-360 series engines?

 

Ron

[ArtVandelay]

There simply not enough data on roller lifters, they are outnumbered by 100-1 and 12 years is not even close when comparing against engines 25-35 years old.

I have no data, with that said I'm willing to bet a beer that the roller lifters slide as much as they roll, there is not much friction for the rollers to grip. Furthermore at the speed the cam is rotating I bet the lifters are hydroplaning, so the rollers are only effective at lower RPMs.

Just my opinion, since we have no real data.

 

[Pissed'Ole-Pete]

6 hours ago, teejayevans said:

Wow, I even included a smiley.

 

So I don't speak emogi....

 

[gsxrpilot]

9 minutes ago, Pissed'Ole-Pete said:

So I don't speak emogi....

 

If you appreciate this community and the information here... learn to play nice... or we're happy to add you to the ignored list.

Maybe after contributing to the community with several hundred useful and beneficial posts, you can get away with poor behavior. But unfortunately you're not there yet.

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

There simply not enough data on roller lifters, they are outnumbered by 100-1 and 12 years is not even close when comparing against engines 25-35 years old.

I have no data, with that said I'm willing to bet a beer that the roller lifters slide as much as they roll, there is not much friction for the rollers to grip. Furthermore at the speed the cam is rotating I bet the lifters are hydroplaning, so the rollers are only effective at lower RPMs.

Just my opinion, since we have no real data.

 

Roller lifters slide?  Hydroplane? Dude that's a stretch. He contact area is so small it would destroy itself if it did that and we would be hearing about it. About hydroplaning,  that's valve float, and that wouldn't be allowed in a conforming engine.  Lots of speculation about how bad things are but not a single example of this. Even if it's 100:1,  there should still be roller cam failures, there's enough in service that we would have heard about it  by now  

 Anyways, if they open and close the valves on time and they don't take out the engine, I'd say it's a deal.  

Edited August 7, 2017 by jetdriven

[ArtVandelay]

21 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Roller lifters slide?  Hydroplane? Dude that's a stretch. He contact area is so small it would destroy itself if it did that and we would be hearing about it. About hydroplaning,  that's valve float, and that wouldn't be allowed in a conforming engine.  Lots of speculation about how bad things are but not a single example of this. Even if it's 100:1,  there should still be roller cam failures, there's enough in service that we would have heard about it  by now  

 Anyways, if they open and close the valves on time and they don't take out the engine, I'd say it's a deal.  

If the rings of a piston can hydroplane on the oil (how it's commonly described why the barrels don't quickly wear out), I see no reason the lifters can't hydroplane on oil, so no contact, I'm talking a few molecules thick. Cars hydroplane on water with much lower viscosity than oil, 4 small contact areas, at rather slow speeds.

[carusoam]

I'd buy into the lubrication approximation working, when the roller stops turning...

realistically, one surfaces drives the other. Some slip between the surfaces will occur naturally...

How would we recognize a roller Not operating properly?  It would probably start with a flat spot on the roller before getting destroyed...

I would have gladly opted for roller bearings at the time of OH.  They have the ability to handle tiny imperfections that occur between these two important surfaces.  Not wanting to be a test owner, I would have to wait for other MSers to go first...

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Marcopolo said:

  Does Continental even have roller cam/lifters available as a replacement on the TSIO-360 series engines?

 

Ron

Not that I've ever heard of.  There once were roller rocker arms though.

Clarence

[tony]

On 8/7/2017 at 7:48 AM, jetdriven said:

Show me a spalled roller lifter. Show me a roller cam that  failed and required an early overhaul. ONE. They've been in service 12 years now. 

 I can find perhaps 50 owners just on this board (including me)  with spalled flat lifters. At breakfast one day all 4 of us were mooney owners and all 4 had a 1-year old engine because of a spalled cam and lifters.

The theoretical failure mode does suck,  the roller locks up and slides on the cam and eats  It up...   Kinda like cam spalling, except, like retread tires jamming in the wheel well, nobody can seem to find any documented evidence of this ever happening.  The failure mode of a crankshaft snapping in two or a main bearing spinning also sucks, but unlike roller lifters falling, it actually has happened. Don't like something because you don't like it because, well gosh no data to base it on, so let's go on feelings     . I prefer data-driven decisions. The airplane and the engine shop don't care what you feel. 

   It's expensive and the factory is known for being a hassle to deal with, but to say they are not superior technology  or a better solution is willful ignorance. It solves the problem of cam spalling and early overhaul for that reason.  It's almost like fox and sour grapes here. 

Just show me some data

Byron, you totally missed the point.  

There is nothing wrong with the original lifter design. Although, since the cam is up in the air, the oil will drip off of it leaving it open to oxidation.  So fly often and that wont happen.  I guarantee you, your friends cams didn't corrode  from too much use.  Cams corrode and subsequently spall from lack of use.  We all know that.  

Your roller bearing design is in response to corroded and spalled cams.  You probably paid about twice as much for your factory overhauled engine than I did for my field overhaul.  All I was trying to say was buy gas with the difference and you wont have a problem.  

And the failure mode of your roller bearing engine still sucks  

[thinwing]

On 8/7/2017 at 8:49 AM, Pissed'Ole-Pete said:

So I don't speak emogi....

 

Hey there..welcome to Mooney nuts!...uh just curious..why are you pissed?

[thomas.morley@comcast.net]

What does your cam do? Mine opens and closes the valves, but what do I know?  No mention of measured valve travel, what a shocker.

Edited May 30, 2019 by thomas.morley@comcast.net