How cheap are you?

[smccray]

Not directed at anyone in particular-

I see this as bad form.  If you empty the hose, the next buyer pays to fill up the hose, and if he or she doesn't empty the hose, then they're the individuals paying for the gas in your tank.  True- the next buyer could choose to empty the hose as well and then they don't get screwed out of the deal- but if you universalize it then no one is in any better position.  If everyone empties the hose, then everyone is in exactly the same position as if no one empties the hose.  I consider this to be part of the social contract of flying.  

You can do it, and I assume it's legal, but I don't want to be that guy. 

 

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Oh to be so young again!

 

That was my exact thought when Alex posted that pic.

As for draining the hose, I always dip my tanks and decide how much to put in. The pump shuts off just before the tanks are full and I hold the lever until it stops draining. I suppose I am missing out on the bit that is in the hose below the wing level.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I was very annoyed by whomever got fuel before me in St George on Memorial Day. Did the usual routine, ground plane, dip tanks, swipe card, set amount of fuel to buy, pull hose to wing while it is authorizing, go back to switch on pump... no switch... How the heck do you turn on the pump there? Oh, there was just a sign to not lift the lever before it resets. What does that mean? I've never seen that before. Oh wait, there is a place to put the handle and in the bottom of it is a metal plate which acts to turn off and on the pump. I go back and pick up the handle, take it back and put it in the hole which "turns off the pump" and also prints off a receipt charging me $0.81 for 0.170 gallons of gas that was never pumped... All because someone didn't put the handle back where it belonged, and I didn't think anything of it because when I pulled up it was hanging from the reel like everyplace else I've ever gotten gas. After a few words shared with nobody in particular except the 95° wind about the lazy punk that got fuel before me, I swiped my card for a new authorization and then filled my plane.

[Hector]

I think I need to be nominated president at the next board meeting.

Red line dictates my daily routine when I go flying and I need gas. Pull plane out of hangar....

and continue pulling it all the way to the pump. By hand.

Alex,
You need to get something like a used riding lawn mower (that someone has discarded of course) and use it to tow your plane. Regardless, I hereby nominate you as president of the CB club


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[201er]

44 minutes ago, smccray said:

If you empty the hose, the next buyer pays to fill up the hose, and if he or she doesn't empty the hose, then they're the individuals paying for the gas in your tank. 

This also makes the fuel pump readout inaccurate. Both for the con pilot as well as the poor sucker after.

For a bunch of guys flying machines costing tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars, nickel and dimeing a couple quarts of gas out of the hose is just pathetic. Especially because it is essentially stealing it from the next guy. What if the next guy got in a situation that forced him to fly to the last gallon and didn't have it because the last guy deliberately drained the hose out?

If someone starts with a full hose and leaves with an empty hose, that is essentially stealing gas. Taking more than was paid for.

I'm a bit dismayed that there are members of the aviation community that may sink so low. Only one step away from siphoning gas out of planes.

Edited June 6, 2017 by 201er

[MooneyMitch]

I never thought about draining the hose.  I doubt I will start.

I sure am enjoying reading all the posts! 

[carusoam]

The younger you are the more you remember how to squeeze every penny...

You have a certain amount of time to build enough wealth to make this amount not matter...

when you get to the point you don't remember all the money saving tips, you have a few more decisions to make...

 

There are two levels of this question...

1) when the pump shuts off... do you let the pressure abate and take the fuel that is coming while you hold the handle valve open...

2) you are running back to the pump, holding the hose high, and draining as much as you can...?

 

There may be an important part of this question... accuracy is important...

1) The amount that you have delivered to the plane depends on the reading at the pump.

2) what is in the hose before you start is unknown... maybe there is some, none or a full hose...? (@201er, listen up...you are missing a very important part here)

3) the pump delivers the known amount.

4) to get all of the known amount requires emptying the hose after the pump shuts off...

5) As a CB draining the hose, you now have a solid reason to do so.

6) because it is technically the right thing to do, you might not make many friends in the line behind you.

7) and the guy with the Barron wants the spot you are in and doesn't care about your CB issue.  

 

8) To really know how important this issue is, a real CB would measure how much fuel is in the hose.

9) an engineering CB, would calculate the volume, read the ID from the numbers printed on the hose itself. Calculate the area of the tube and measure the length of the hose, do the math and convert that number to gallons.

10) the practical CB, would measure this excess into a container he has back at the hangar...

11) the Mooney proficient CB, does none of the math, but he has those CIES floats attached to his JPI 930 and allows the system to tell the difference from before to after emptying the hose into the tank...

You have to be really proficient to have the CIES digital floats... but your status in the CB club is starting to waver... a  tad...

+1 for being young and flying around in a Mooney.  You have done something right.

 

For the record, I usually wait for the pressure to abate, and the flow to stop.  Unwinding the hose to go through the gravity exercise... too messy at my home drome... accuracy for my tanks is measured with the mechanical wing mounted fuel gauges.

PP thoughts only.

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by carusoam

[201er]

6 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Con pilot?  A little strong, Mike. But I am learning to expect as much from you. 

What's the opposite of sucker? Swindler? Is that better? 

I understand the desire to economize. I'm the first to fly to airports with cheaper fuel. But why would you want to have a different amount of fuel in the tanks than expected? Especially at the expense of someone else having less than expected. I think knowing exactly how much fuel you have is worth more than the fuel itself.

Edited June 6, 2017 by 201er

[carusoam]

Mike,

I agree with you ethically.  

 

I disagree with you technically.

 

I have given you the reason in my list above. I put a tag there to make it easier to find

 

briefly this time...

The known amount comes with draining the hose after you fill.

The unknown amount is in the hose before you fill.

Just the laws of physics, nothing else.

This may be a challenge for some people to grasp.  Mostly because I have challenges writing. Let me know if I can clear up the details...

 

Best regards,

-a-

Edited June 6, 2017 by carusoam

[201er]

Just now, carusoam said:

Mike,

I agree with you ethically.  

 

I disagree with you technically.

I had never even given this dilemma a single thought before. Never thought of it. I have never done it and I had never seen anyone do it. Perhaps I am foolish in making the presumption that the pump goes from a full hose to a full hose and the amount pumped is offset for each plane getting fueled. 

On the flip side, the thing I tend to rely on most is topping th tanks rather than reading the pump. This is probably the most reliable way to know how much gas you've got. If I stop pumping when the tanks are topped, even if I were a super-CB, I wouldn't have anywhere to put it. I don't bring 5 gallon tanks around with me just in case I come across some gas to steal.

[carusoam]

let us start the new day on a new foot.

Even when we are right doesn't give us the liberty to be abrasive with everybody.

Happy Tuesday, 

-a-

Edited June 6, 2017 by carusoam

[201er]

3 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I am just learning that like my teenaged children you don't always think before you speak, Mike. They are good kids and don't mean anything by it either. It is just a little immaturity showing itself. 

Jim, you admitted to taking more fuel than you paid for. You know the next guy will end up receiving less than paid for. And you're calling me immature... 

[smccray]

37 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I always find it interesting how reasonable and well intentioned minds can vary, whether it is politically, socially, or otherwise.  This is a great example. I had never once even given draining the hose a second thought. Why wouldn't you?  In my mind at least kind of like picking up a lost coin on the street, or eating all of your meal at a restaurant. It is just interesting to me to see other perspectives I had never even considered. Especially when I can see their merits. 

Not that intend to change, mind you, but this has been a fascinating discussion to me never the less.

Jim

Well said Jim.  Different perspectives keep life interesting.

 

 

[carusoam]

11 minutes ago, 201er said:

Perhaps I am foolish in making the presumption that the pump goes from a full hose to a full hose and the amount pumped is offset for each plane getting fueled. 

You are abrasive to yourself, not required.  -a-

1) You can't make this assumption and rely on it.  What is in the hose when you get to the pump is not measured.  

2) The pump zeroes out, not knowing what is in there.

3) the pump has it's final reading when it shuts off.

4) that number includes the fuel that is delivered, and remains, in the hose.

5) to get that amount into your plane, you would need to empty the hose.

Just a technicality of accuracy.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited June 6, 2017 by carusoam

[201er]

Just now, carusoam said:

1) You can't make this assumption and rely on it.  What is in the hose when you get to the pump is not measured.  

2) The pump zeroes out, not knowing what is in there.

3) the pump has it's final reading when it shuts off.

4) that number includes the fuel that is delivered, and remains, in the hose.

Just a technicality of accuracy.

Best regards,

-a-

If accuracy and not thievery is the goal, then drain the hose out before and after every fueling. This discussion seems to be more concerned with a walking away with a buck or two of gas than decency or accuracy.

That said, I usually fill up at Central Jersey and see the last plane rushing to fill to make room for me as I will for the next one. So if I saw the last guy fuel up and set down the hose, without any of these lift the hose shenanigans, I think my presumption should lead to a fairly accurate reading for me as for the next guy. What am I missing?

[bonal]

I wouldn't do it but it's not about the extra fuel but the fuel opening is not a secure fit like we have in our cars and I would not leave the nozzle stuffed in the wing and go back and start trying to lift the hose and milk the fuel out which could cause the nozzle to come out uncontrollably and damage the airplane or possibly cause a fire. I think fueling an airplane is a very serious activity and one should do it with great care.

[RLCarter]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Oh to be so young again!

 

I was NEVER that young, Alex! You da man!!!

[carusoam]

So many different fuel necks in all the various Mooneys.

The O1 is the perfect length to catch on the standard nozzle's ring. This ring is there to keep the hose from falling out...

Check to see how well that ring matches your Mooney's fuel neck.  My C's would catch the ring pretty well too. But probably not enough to stay in place while jockeying the hose.

So much detail to know about your plane...

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

I may have on occasion used the tug to pull the plane to the pump.  Then used the extra in the hose to fill the tank on the tug.

[Raptor05121]

7 hours ago, Hector said:

 

Alex,
You need to get something like a used riding lawn mower (that someone has discarded of course) and use it to tow your plane. Regardless, I hereby nominate you as president of the CB club


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

I have been browsing Craigslist like a hawk. It seems like you have running/cutting models for $400+ or broken models that don't even run for $50. I'm trying to find that golden egg "runs fine but needs new deck" for like $150 and doesnt look like a bomb went off next to it. Its mowing season so they are few and far inbetween.

[prflyer]

10 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

I think I need to be nominated president at the next board meeting.

Red line dictates my daily routine when I go flying and I need gas. Pull plane out of hangar....

and continue pulling it all the way to the pump. By hand.

And you save on your gym membership since you get your workout at the airport! I second your nomination.

[cnoe]

It's a skill/habit he picked up while working for FedEx.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[orionflt]

9 hours ago, Hector said:

 

Alex,
You need to get something like a used riding lawn mower (that someone has discarded of course) and use it to tow your plane. Regardless, I hereby nominate you as president of the CB club


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

don't be so quick on the nomination, we need to know if it is up hill or down hill first

Brian

[cnoe]

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

Even when we are right doesn't give us the liberty to be abrasive with everybody.

Happy Tuesday, 

At the risk of becoming a pariah for defending our AOA guru I didn't find his comments to be offensive at all.

In fact, I'd say that if you're self-confident enough to stand in front of a waiting aircraft draining the fuel hose of its last 1.5 gallons of fuel then you likely won't be offended by what some guy with a parrot on his shoulder says about you on the internet.

8 hours ago, 201er said:

I have never done it and I had never seen anyone do it. Perhaps I am foolish in making the presumption that the pump goes from a full hose to a full hose and the amount pumped is offset for each plane getting fueled. 

From our current unscientific poll results 85% of us operate in this manner, but as I recently discovered there are a fair number who are gaining a slight advantage over the rest of us (the FBO comes out even no matter what).

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

Just a technicality of accuracy.

There are 2 ways of dispensing fuel. 1) program the pump to shut off after a fixed amount/value of fuel passes the metering device. 2) program the pump to continue running until you physically turn it off. I'm in group 2 and either fill to the neck, or to the tabs. I have nothing to gain and everything to lose by draining the hose.

9 hours ago, Skates97 said:

prints off a receipt charging me $0.81 for 0.170 gallons of gas that was never pumped.

You'll notice that when the pump first starts (before any fuel is dispensed) the pump-display will often indicate that some fuel has been purchased as Richard points out. This amount can vary greatly depending on what kind of pilot preceded you. If you follow a true hose drainer that number can be well above the 1 gallon mark which can be a source of aggravation. But I can guarantee you the FBO isn't going give a rat's ass if you complain about it.

But for all our woes pity the poor Cessna CB who has to move his/her ladder the entire length of the hose to attain the level of cheapness that a Mooney driver can accomplish with both feet planted firmly on the ground. 

[MyNameIsNobody]

9 hours ago, 201er said:

This also makes the fuel pump readout inaccurate. Both for the con pilot as well as the poor sucker after.

For a bunch of guys flying machines costing tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars, nickel and dimeing a couple quarts of gas out of the hose is just pathetic. Especially because it is essentially stealing it from the next guy. What if the next guy got in a situation that forced him to fly to the last gallon and didn't have it because the last guy deliberately drained the hose out?

If someone starts with a full hose and leaves with an empty hose, that is essentially stealing gas. Taking more than was paid for.

I'm a bit dismayed that there are members of the aviation community that may sink so low. Only one step away from siphoning gas out of planes.

Laughing at not with you parrot man.  Is it cheap?  Yup.  Is it "stealing from the "next guy"?  Nope.  Your comparison to siphoning, (Literally stealing from someone else that has paid for something, that is THEIR possession is patently absurd.)  I reject your indignation and the premise.

Yes indeed, there are different "strokes and blokes" to make up the world.  I would rather be amused than offended by your remarks.  You do realize that your remarks are offensive, right?  If you do and did it anyway that kind of makes you, well offensive.  If you don't realize they are offensive, I feel sorry for you and you probably should think this stuff quietly, but not really verbalize as it lets people know what is going on in there.

Have a nice day.

 

To fellow squeeze to pleaseers, I hope I get to the pump before you...and parrot man.

[MyNameIsNobody]

8 hours ago, 201er said:

If accuracy and not thievery is the goal, then drain the hose out before and after every fueling. This discussion seems to be more concerned with a walking away with a buck or two of gas than decency or accuracy.

That said, I usually fill up at Central Jersey and see the last plane rushing to fill to make room for me as I will for the next one. So if I saw the last guy fuel up and set down the hose, without any of these lift the hose shenanigans, I think my presumption should lead to a fairly accurate reading for me as for the next guy. What am I missing?

A clue Mike.  You are missing a clue.  Get one.  They are cheap and better than being a bastard, but not better than being a cheap bastard...