After inspection issues

[Ario]

A reputable shop in our town did a 100 hour inspection on my Mooney very recently. When I got my aircraft back, I discovered a number of unscrewed bolts around the engine cowling, under the engine belly, and the fuselage by doing pre-flight walk arounds. A friend of mine also discovered a loose fuel injector line's nut when he did a quick inspection, although the shop fixed that. But the other issues I discovered in the past few days worry me a lot.   
I am very disappointed with the work this shop did for me and I cannot trust them anymore. I would like to know what are my options now. I have already sent them an email and explained and am waiting for their reply. But even if they say they will fix the issues, should I trust them? What if there are issues that cannot be discovered by a walk around? Can more experienced pilots please help me about what I should do now?

[ArtVandelay]

Are they the only shop? Do they have more than 1 mechanic? Do you know which one worked on it? Do they do a lot of Mooney work?

[Tom]

Even good people can have a bad day.  I'm concerned, though, that there were several discrepancies.  Perhaps they let the new guy loose on your plane but didn't provide enough oversight? 

3 hours ago, Ario said:

I cannot trust them anymore.

For me, this is all that matters. 

If you have other options, I'd see if this shop tried to earn back your trust.  If so, follow your instincts and conscience.  If not, exercise your options.

Otherwise--if you have a hangar, or can find an A&P/IA with a hangar, I'd highly recommend doing your own owner-assisted work and learning everything about the plane.  No matter how much maintenance people like you and your plane....you like you and your plane even more. 

[Guest]

As a shop owner I can tell you that things do got wrong and get missed.  The fuel injection line is serious, they obviously aren't using a torque wrench or inspectors lacquer or paint as they complete tasks.  One or two loose screws can happen, considering how many there are in a Mooney.  It really speaks to lack of oversight and quality control.

How the shop deals with the issues will tell you what you should do next.

Clarence

 

[Bob_Belville]

I am a big fan and user of email. It permits the receiver to investigate and provide an informed answer. But in this case I think I'd call the shop manager and describe what you've found. I'd be listen carefully to his/her answers. Any hint of denial or excuse would be a red flag. As Clarence points out "stuff" happens. A shop manager who does not admit that possibility is dangerous.

[1964-M20E]

I have missed screws myself doing owner assisted annuals.  It happens.  If you have been getting good service from them in the past and they have resolved the issues without excuses or blame game I would not throw them out just yet but I would keep a closer watch over them.

 

 

[RobertGary1]

In 20 years of ownership I've found much worse. Aileron bellcrank replaced without the securing nut, missing cotter pin on main gear, nut securing rear empernnage finger tight, antennas reconnected at random on belly, etc, etc. 

Now I no longer let anyone do anything on my plane without my direct supervision. I do all the wrenching on my plane and the IA comes and does the look over but I do the wrenching. Since then I've had no issues.

Some people think you save money by doing your own work. That may be but the main reason is you can control the quality. Much of the hands on work done at shops isn't even done by A&P's. 

-Robert

Edited June 5, 2017 by RobertGary1

[rbridges]

Even if you don't go back, I'd let them know why.  As a business owner, I always want to know if someone is dissatisfied.  Customers are the backbone and should be treated that way.

[OR75]

10 hours ago, Ario said:

A reputable shop in our town did a 100 hour inspection on my Mooney very recently. When I got my aircraft back, I discovered a number of unscrewed bolts around the engine cowling, under the engine belly, and the fuselage by doing pre-flight walk arounds. A friend of mine also discovered a loose fuel injector line's nut when he did a quick inspection, although the shop fixed that. But the other issues I discovered in the past few days worry me a lot.   
I am very disappointed with the work this shop did for me and I cannot trust them anymore. I would like to know what are my options now. I have already sent them an email and explained and am waiting for their reply. But even if they say they will fix the issues, should I trust them? What if there are issues that cannot be discovered by a walk around? Can more experienced pilots please help me about what I should do now?

probably best to find another shop if trust is gone.

A few items bother me though:

- there should not be any bolts around the engine cowling (all are camlocs if I can recall)

- under the belly should all be screws

- why would a friend open the cowling to see the fuel lines ? (I am glad he did !! ... I personally do it as well one in a while, mostly to visually check for anything loose or chaffing)   

[Immelman]

Mistakes happen - you broke the chain by your inspection.

Are they reputable? In my opinion it depends on how they proceed from here...

Before I took that thing in the air I would settle no less for having every access panel, cowling, and piece of baffling etc that was removed for the annual opened back up, and everything they touched during the annual checked for security. If they cop to it and agree to that that would be a good sign. No charge, of course. Anything less... not a reputable shop anymore.

They can do it (with your supervision), or you can do it. Anything less and you're taking a chance when you take that thing  the air.

And this is a grave situation. Its one thing to miss a belly screw.. those are backed up by many, many buddies. A loose fuel injector... oh my lord. What else is going on in that thing?? I would very closely examine what they did and what they had to touch to access whatever they worked on.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Immelman

[ArtVandelay]

- under the belly should all be screws

FYI
Some of us with the 1 piece belly retrofit have camlocs.

[bradp]

Would agree  that any system or hardware that was manipulated by the shop needs to be reinspected.

Firewall forward in addition to correct torque of your fuel injector nuts, you should ensure that all spark plugs are torqued  properly, as well as their leads.  I'd also be concerned about you fuel screen  

I would place a phone call to the director of maintenance of this particular shop, follow up with an email.

See how they respond - if they blow you off file a service difficulty report if it is an FAA repair station. This will get the FSDO on their rear ends with regards to quality assurance practices and supervision. Make sure you document your findings.  

[Dream to fly]

As a shop owner this is how I HAVE handled this very problem.  First I'd figure out which employee did the work and have them be aware of the issue.  Second I would refund all money that was paid.  Then offer to make it right, and make a formal apology with the employee to show good faith.  I'd also offer back a service plan that would eliminate issues in the future with hopes of keeping the customer.  I've had this happen 3 times in 12 years and won two of the customers back and have never had ill feelings.  The one was absolutely terrible and I lost big.  That one was a stupid mistake a screwdriver in the back pocket.

[Alain B]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

In 20 years of ownership I've found much worse. Aileron bellcrank replaced without the securing nut, missing cotter pin on main gear, nut securing rear empernnage finger tight, antennas reconnected at random on belly, etc, etc. 

Now I no longer let anyone do anything on my plane without my direct supervision. I do all the wrenching on my plane and the IA comes and does the look over but I do the wrenching. Since then I've had no issues.

Some people think you save money by doing your own work. That may be but the main reason is you can control the quality. Much of the hands on work done at shops isn't even done by A&P's. 

-Robert

My very first job after schooling was in the quality assurance dept . of a very well know military avionics manufacturer . I have seen so many discrepancies and mistakes made by the production dept . over the years that i have difficulties trusting a shop that would make even a single tiny mistake. You " @#$#@ " is on the line . Would you trust a surgeon doing mistakes ? I cannot supervise a surgeon , however i can supervise a mechanic , most likely he will not like for me to look over his shoulders , so i would find one who will accept that , and answer my questions along the way . 

[Ario]

Thanks everyone for the advice and help. Totally appreciate that. I am still waiting for the shop's reply. They are one of the largest shops in our town and I have sent the email to a few people there who were part of our conversations during the inspection, which includes the directors of maintenance and inspections.

Sorry for the mistake when I called  camlocs bolts. Yes they are all camlocs. The two camlocs under the engine belly are right in front of the nose gear assembly. They are there to tighten the cowling to the body. When I tried to lock them, I noticed one of the camlocs don't reach the hole because the hole is about one inch back towards the nose gear. Either the body part is in a wrong position or the cowling is not properly fitted there. I doubt the cowling is not properly fitted as all other camlocs are at the right places and locked. This should be inspected. 

I understand that mistakes happen, but when the same mistakes happen after you discovered similar ones and notified them, is kind of unacceptable. 

Let's wait and see what they tell me. They have other mechanics in their shop. I will get a day or two off to watch them inspect the aircraft again if they offer to do so. If not, I have to think what else I should do before taking it up again. 

 

 

[Tom]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I have been doing owner-assisted annuals...each individual screw is inspected, cleaned, and lubrucated every year...

Are you available for owner-owner-assisted annuals?  What might you charge?

[RobertGary1]

14 minutes ago, Tom said:

Are you available for owner-owner-assisted annuals?  What might you charge?

I do the same. It only takes an annual or two to figure out it saves time in the end. All screws should be treated with love and tenderness because if not they bite back. Not much worse that putting the 999'th screw into a panel and finding the backing is broken and you have to remove the panel and start again.

 

-Robert

[Tom]

It's a very touchy subject that deserves a lot of conditions and qualifiers, but I'm nearly as concerned about maintenance induced failures as I am about complying with certain types of disassembly/inspection practices. 

On a related note, we've known for a while that doing routine health checkups for people doesn't seem to help them live longer, but this doesn't stop physicians from encouraging the practice or dissuade people from seeking such exams.  Superstition and folklore over science.

 

 

 

[Yetti]

The shop has already been notified of some missed steps. "Had to retighten fuel lines"

They should have called a safety stand down.   Uncowl the engine and have several mechanics go through everything and I mean everything on the engine.  Every hose, spark plug every connection that can be found. Torque everything that should be torqued.  All safety wire should be checked.   You should take pictures and let the peanut gallery here look at them.  About 3 or 4 a side should do.

Then the two mechanics should stand by the plane for 15 minutes with flashlights inspecting everything.  They should give you an explanation of all the work they did and how they have put it into a safe to fly manner.

Then the team should go over every inch of the plane doing the most through preflight you have ever done.

You should ask them if they are OK to fly their wife and children in the plane with you.

 

[Yetti]

OH and there is an AD on the fuel lines so that should have given them special attention.  Someone should have gone through and checked the clamps and then fingered the nuts. on a second pass through.   Just good work practice.

[HRM]

10 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Some people think you save money by doing your own work. That may be but the main reason is you can control the quality. Much of the hands on work done at shops isn't even done by A&P's. 

 

There is so much uncertainty when it comes to annuals that it is mind-boggling. I am developing your philosophy as I and my E age--I want us both to go longer. I also subscribe to Mike Busch's philosophy about maintenance, which is along the same lines.

[Ario]

Here are a few pictures of the camlocs under the engine belly. It's under the firewall. Both had been left open. I tightened the one on the right side. But the fastener on the left side is about one inch forward of the hole on the firewall. The shop changed the nose gear truss because of a small dent due to over turn. They told me that the deep of the dent should be less than 1/32 of an inch or it is unairworthy. So, I had to replace the truss. I guess the problem in the pictures might have happened when they changed the truss.

 

[cliffy]

Camlocs can pop even after they "seem" fastened. That's why I always tap the panel all around to see if they do. Sometimes they do.

As I grow older I find that when I get done working on the plane I go around and re-look at everything I did and then I do it again. I touch every item I worked on and really look at each one. All before I cowl or close panels. As I'm the only one looking most of the time- I really look to make sure I didn't forget something. Age has a way of growing caution.

To the OP, anyone can make a mistake its all in how they recover that counts. Their approach to you is what you need to look at. 

[carusoam]

Thanks to the MS mechanics for your replies to this topic.

+1 for the owner assisted annual.  

You really get to know the mechanics that are going to work on your plane.

They get to know you.

I think this is called rapport.  When something isn't right it is a whole lot easier to go back and ask them about it.  

Sometimes the problem is in your imagination, and the mechanic you know is generous about letting you know.

The young buck mechanic that worked on my C, 17 years ago.  Is the same guy, all grown up working on my O.

Same shop owner too...

Emails are used to document the phone discussions...I like to walk into their shop and talk about the work I'm going to get done. Visit it while it is going on. Unfortunately, not able to owner assist any longer...

Can't get this attention related to my cars, even though it is still the same shop for the last 20 years. The young manager is not so young anymore...  time in the shop for a car... about one hour per year...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited June 6, 2017 by carusoam

[jaylw314]

39 minutes ago, Ario said:

Here are a few pictures of the camlocs under the engine belly. It's under the firewall. Both had been left open. I tightened the one on the right side. But the fastener on the left side is about one inch forward of the hole on the firewall. The shop changed the nose gear truss because of a small dent due to over turn. They told me that the deep of the dent should be less than 1/32 of an inch or it is unairworthy. So, I had to replace the truss. I guess the problem in the pictures might have happened when they changed the truss.

 

Holy spit!  Does the rest of your cowl line up?  What the heck is going on there?