Look what I found!

[StevenL757]

On 5/22/2017 at 6:56 PM, Antares said:

...in my oil screen. 

 

Hate to say this, but you're ready for a factory rebuilt (personal choice, but highly-recommended vs. an OH).

Obviously, this is an individual choice, and you need to run the numbers re: how much value add a rebuilt engine will reap versus selling it with a run-out engine (if you're truly planning to sell it), and then make your decision.  Personally, I wouldn't fly that airplane in that condition much more (now that you know what you know).  Doing so is asking for certain trouble.

Forget individual cylinder replacements and more "discovery" work.  There is no point throwing new cylinders or a top overhaul kit (between $8k and $10k) on top of a 20+ year-old engine core.  Get your ducks lined up and get a factory rebuilt engine on this ASAP.  As others have mentioned, your engine has spoken.  It is now yelling louder.  Listen to it and take the right action...whether you plan to sell or not.

We are here for you.  Let us know what you decide.

Steve

[jetdriven]

4 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

What is interesting to me is that technology today is building better stronger alloys for engine parts and the big two engine companies are still working with yester year technology.  The only time I see this kind of failure is when a customer doesn't do maintenance.  Plane owners are way far more astute to maintenance and even some go over board.  There is no reason for bearings to wash or cams to fail.    

We have oil pump gears getting rusty and cams spalling on engines with 400hrs  built a year ago.  Perhaps the relentless outsourcing and globalization which has led us to cheap inferior metals which don't meet the spec of the older stuff. 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Antares said:

Wow!  That is really messed up.  Where are the oil holes in the bearing shells?  What are they filled with?

Clarence 

[Dream to fly]

4 hours ago, jetdriven said:

We have oil pump gears getting rusty and cams spalling on engines with 400hrs  built a year ago.  Perhaps the relentless outsourcing and globalization which has led us to cheap inferior metals which don't meet the spec of the older stuff. 

agreed

[Guest]

The only engine I've seen with similar bearing damage had the suction screen blocked, it would make oil pressure but not enough volume of oil flowed to the bearings.  

Clarence

[carusoam]

Why do the two on the right look like a different design than the two on the left...?

The right has an oil supply groove. (?)

The left doesn't. (?)

Is it possible these parts have been mixed... before or after they came out?

Just PP observations, not actual experience...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

13 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Why do the two on the right look like a different design than the two on the left...?

The right has an oil supply groove. (?)

The left doesn't. (?)

The set on the left has an order of magnitude more wear. Zoom in, you can see part of the groove on the far edge of the upper one. The wear goes completely through the plating and well into the base metal--that's what he found in the oil screen . . . One on the right is in better shape than the other, but it's not good. The ones on the left are garbage.

[carusoam]

I see...

The one on the left failed miserably, the one on the right is probably suffering from collateral damage...

Thanks, Hank.

Best regards,

-a-

[FloridaMan]

10 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

What is interesting to me is that technology today is building better stronger alloys for engine parts and the big two engine companies are still working with yester year technology.  The only time I see this kind of failure is when a customer doesn't do maintenance.  Plane owners are way far more astute to maintenance and even some go over board.  There is no reason for bearings to wash or cams to fail.    

There's a touch of the invulnerability hazardous attitude in this post. I purchased the plane in 2012 with ~1100 SFOH. I flew between 200 and 300 hours per year since then and the engine had just made TBO. The plane was maintained by IA/A&P/MSCs of the highest reputation. At one point I had an engine failure on takeoff at 200ft leaving a reputable MSC; I don't know whether the failure was the result of maintenance that had just been performed or if it was coincidental, but either way, I stuck to preplanned decisions on maintenance and operation and still experienced an engine failure; my point being that even if the big names maintain your bird, it doesn't mean bad things can't still happen. I still declined an intersection departure that day, which likely saved the airframe and possibly our lives.

I performed oil changes every 25 hours and filter changes either every change, or every other change, and I inspected the filters each and every time. I pulled the filter this time and inspected it as I noticed a couple psi drop in oil pressure that had been trending downwards for months. If I did not have a graphic engine monitor, I would likely have not even noticed it. The oil pressure was still in the green and had dropped 5-8 psi in cruise over the course of around 100-150 hours or so. In the last 20 hours, I noticed another 1-2psi drop and inspected the filter. Aside from a one-time even with a few small specs at annual 100 hours prior, there was no sign of metal in any previous oil change. 

The center main bearing spun. A friend who has a Cardinal mentioned that a number of Cardinal owners have had bearings spin after a cylinder has been replaced, believed to be the result of the torque across the case halves being relieved. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Antares

[MIm20c]

Thank you for sharing your experience. I'll be pushing hard to fly 100-200 for the next few years and it will be helpful to know what to look for. 

[Dream to fly]

8 hours ago, Antares said:

There's a touch of the invulnerability hazardous attitude in this post. I purchased the plane in 2012 with ~1100 SFOH. I flew between 200 and 300 hours per year since then and the engine had just made TBO. The plane was maintained by IA/A&P/MSCs of the highest reputation. At one point I had an engine failure on takeoff at 200ft leaving a reputable MSC; I don't know whether the failure was the result of maintenance that had just been performed or if it was coincidental, but either way, I stuck to preplanned decisions on maintenance and operation and still experienced an engine failure; my point being that even if the big names maintain your bird, it doesn't mean bad things can't still happen. I still declined an intersection departure that day, which likely saved the airframe and possibly our lives.

I performed oil changes every 25 hours and filter changes either every change, or every other change, and I inspected the filters each and every time. I pulled the filter this time and inspected it as I noticed a couple psi drop in oil pressure that had been trending downwards for months. If I did not have a graphic engine monitor, I would likely have not even noticed it. The oil pressure was still in the green and had dropped 5-8 psi in cruise over the course of around 100-150 hours or so. In the last 20 hours, I noticed another 1-2psi drop and inspected the filter. Aside from a one-time even with a few small specs at annual 100 hours prior, there was no sign of metal in any previous oil change. 

The center main bearing spun. A friend who has a Cardinal mentioned that a number of Cardinal owners have had bearings spin after a cylinder has been replaced, believed to be the result of the torque across the case halves being relieved. 

That is my point.  I didn't say it couldn't happen but it happens way to often.  These engines are not being taxed or overworked they are being used and most like yourself use them routinely and keep tight maintenance schedules.  The engine companies can build it better.  I was sick when I saw those pictures and I bet you were too.  There is no reason for that kind of failure especially when oil changes are routine.  Some component lost its hardness.  Now the option as an owner whether you rebuild or buy new is really no different.  You'll likely spend 25K+ and it'll be a crap shoot whether or not it stays together.  My point is that this should not be.  The technology is there to build it better and we as owners should demand it.  If car engines did this we'd flip out.  And before someone blasts me  the engines that do fail in cars are far and few between and usually driver caused.   I'm all about making a profit as a shop owner I understand the bottom line but I also know that a quality product can and should be produced.  There is no reason the engine companies don't know of the technology.  Especially on the rotating assembly.  Cases crack, and electronics fail, and everything has a life span.  But the rotating assemblies should not be failing like this in such a small market.  I'm sorry that this happened and you have to deal with it but it did open my eyes wide to realize that every time an engine is started the likely hood of it being its last is very real.

[jetdriven]

Have you recently put any cylinder s on? Bearing shift is a possibility if the through studs are untorqued and the crank is turned 

Unforfunately a factory engine won't be an option as it's disassembled. And a rebuild is going to be hellishly expensive as well because the crank is likely bad and one or both case halves as well. I wish you had more symptoms of progressive failure beforehand, so you could have stopped running it before the damage got so severe. Having been in a similar situation, I feel for you. Keep us posted. 

[preinke]

Was there any camshaft / follower damage ? This seems like the root cause of the oil passage plugging in my engine. I had significant damage - case, cam ,cylinders, crank ? and Lycoming accepted disassembled but complete engine.on a reman. . The age of the engine was what they used as a disqualifier for the overhaul but I was also told the disassembled engine may have forced the reman requirement.

Paul

'77 J, KIKV

[Dream to fly]

Asking a question...  So if one disassembles an engine finds all this wrong, can that owner take good yellow tagged components and send them out to make them stronger.  Like sending the crank to Crowler for hardening and truing with Teflon impregnated matched black bearings,  Lunati to grind a cam and lifters that can rotate without peeling.  Pistons that are ceramic coated. ETC.  Or does that then damage the type rating of the aircraft and put it in the experimental category?

[MB65E]

The major engine machine facilities in Oaklahoma only have a few approval processes. Nitrating cams and cranks is about all they can do. 

I don't think they can do those things you mentioned. Bummer I know...

-Matt

[FloridaMan]

59 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Have you recently put any cylinder s on? Bearing shift is a possibility if the through studs are untorqued and the crank is turned 

Unforfunately a factory engine won't be an option as it's disassembled. And a rebuild is going to be hellishly expensive as well because the crank is likely bad and one or both case halves as well. I wish you had more symptoms of progressive failure beforehand, so you could have stopped running it before the damage got so severe. Having been in a similar situation, I feel for you. Keep us posted. 

I suspect there's a possibility that the crankshaft may have been moved with the cylinder off. The reason is that the cylinder that was last replaced was the one that had the FOD go through it when I had the engine failure (both spark plugs were destroyed some time between runup and 10 seconds after I started my climb). I suspect that the IA who recovered the airplane spent a lot of time looking around for the cause. I never saw the parts that came off that engine and am only going off of what I was told. 

Thus far it seems that selecting Aero Engines of Winchester, VA was a good decision for the overhaul. They're swapping cases with me and solong as the old case comes back, they said they won't charge me for it. Air Power said that if I ordered a factory overhauled engine from them, that there would be no surprises if they found anything in the engine, but, frankly, I didn't believe them. Too many maintenance shops, not just engine shops, said that if I went with a factory overhaul and they found a bad crank, that I'd get charged for it, and I've heard builders say that dealing with Air Power for cylinder warranty has been a nightmare at times. The large flight school that referred me to Aero Engines specifically mentioned that they're pretty good about helping customers save money on the big ticket parts that many of the other shops won't do. 

Another thing that's unbelievably fortunate: Out of nowhere, right as this all started, a colleague that I've worked with over the past 15 or so years comes to me with a fixed price project to pay me an extra chunk of money to write an app for the iPhone and Android for a major chain of restaurants, which should offset a good part of this. I'm like the Winston Wolf of software development: I get things done and occasionally I get a call. It would've been nice to put that towards a Rocket, but I also would have felt horrible handing off my old F to someone who had a budget for an M20F: likely, a first time buyer like I was, and at the time I bought my F, weathering an engine would've been difficult, but part of the reason I bought an F and not a J or K was that I could afford the plane and, if I had to buy an engine, I wouldn't like doing it, but I could swing it. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Antares

[jetdriven]

Lycoming's core policy spells it out pretty specifically, the core must be complete and operable. Once you disassemble it, you own it. Hopefully the crank comes back serviceable. It's another 5 grand. Supposedly the A3B6D cranks are like 8k

[FloridaMan]

I am strongly of the opinion that something historically went very wrong when it comes to powerplant and propulsion for light aircraft -- sortof like how supposedly American aircraft design had stagnated prior to WW1. 

[jetdriven]

I see a lot of this in GA. Organizations just coasting on their 20-30-40-50 year old devices and no product improvement. They just raise the prices of their product to the captive market every year. The cost to produce goes up slightly but there is zero r&d or improvement to their product. That works well until a new entrant takes them out, but this only works for high volume things. Till then we live with 1800$ Dukes fuel pumps, 1500$ King roll servo overhauls,  5500$ Shaw fuel caps, 27,000$ Lycoming engines, etc. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by jetdriven

[peevee]

16 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

1500$ King roll servo overhauls,

$1500 would be a bargain on what I saw when researching a few weeks ago!

[Dream to fly]

28 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I see a lot of this in GA. Organizations just coasting on their 20-30-40-50 year old devices and no product improvement. They just raise the prices of their product to the captive market every year. The cost to produce goes up slightly but there is zero r&d or improvement to their product. That works well until a new entrant takes them out, but this only works for high volume things. Till then we live with 1800$ Dukes fuel pumps, 1500$ King roll servo overhauls,  5500$ Shaw fuel caps, 27,000$ Lycoming engines, etc. 

So how do people like us force their hands.   If somebody wants to join forces I'm in.  I'll buy the machines I like tools!!!

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

I see a lot of this in GA. Organizations just coasting on their 20-30-40-50 year old devices and no product improvement. They just raise the prices of their product to the captive market every year. The cost to produce goes up slightly but there is zero r&d or improvement to their product. That works well until a new entrant takes them out, but this only works for high volume things. Till then we live with 1800$ Dukes fuel pumps, 1500$ King roll servo overhauls,  5500$ Shaw fuel caps, 27,000$ Lycoming engines, etc. 

IMHO this is one consequence of an over-regulated environment that keeps the barrier to entry unproductively high.   If the door were open to innovation and competition, it'd be there, especially given what the community has been trained to pay for things.

[Dream to fly]

19 minutes ago, EricJ said:

IMHO this is one consequence of an over-regulated environment that keeps the barrier to entry unproductively high.   If the door were open to innovation and competition, it'd be there, especially given what the community has been trained to pay for things.

Better to ask for forgiveness than permission

[Guest]

If a bearing spun as a result of rotating the crankshaft during a cylinder change there was something wrong with the pins which lock the bearings in place.  The TBO of these engines changes with the compliance with certain factory bulletins.  I would be looking there first.

Clarence

[FloridaMan]

7 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

If a bearing spun as a result of rotating the crankshaft during a cylinder change there was something wrong with the pins which lock the bearings in place.  The TBO of these engines changes with the compliance with certain factory bulletins.  I would be looking there first.

Clarence

It was a factory overhaul