Mooney Down in Texas

[rbridges]

2 minutes ago, N6758N said:

So would you ditch in the ocean with the gear down? I would much rather have the gear up to 'slide' as much as possible on anything other than a smooth, hard surface. Wearing the instrument panel is no fun...

at the mooney summitt, they said gear down in an off airport landing.  The exception would be a water landing.

[RobertGary1]

4 minutes ago, N6758N said:

So would you ditch in the ocean with the gear down? I would much rather have the gear up to 'slide' as much as possible on anything other than a smooth, hard surface. Wearing the instrument panel is no fun...

As I said I didn't rule it out but it would be an unsual situation.  You're suggesting a field in which you want to extend your slide by making the plane slide more smoothly. Not sure I'd take that risk. I have shoulder harnesses though. I guess without a harness your risk calculus would be different as you mentioned with the horizontal deceleration sans harness panel/face interface.   

-Robert

Edited January 5, 2017 by RobertGary1

[mooniac15u]

22 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Looks like a gear down? As an engineer I'm not coming up with very many cases where gear up would be good. The gear provides not only drag but life saving vertical energy absorption. Because of the low CG of a Mooney I think the worst case of a wheel digging in would just result in the gear sheering off, dissipating more deadly energy in the process. A high CG Cessna would be a wild ride for sure off field though. 

Fortunately in my engine out I was able to make it to a runway that was designed a space shuttle alternate landing spot. although with not much to spare.

-Robert

Are you an aerospace engineer?  Do you have data to back that up?

[peevee]

33 minutes ago, thinwing said:

Oh oh...bet he hated to hear about that!

good news boss! I figured out where this bucket of bolts belongs! Er, belonged?

 

Nah, I doubt it.

Edited January 5, 2017 by peevee

[ArtVandelay]

It depends, the gear is pretty strong and will cause the plane to lurch foward, whether the nose digs depends on how soft the ground is. With lower center of gravity and low nose height I'm betting you would just plow the ground, and would not flip unless ground is soft. Having the gear extended protects against rocks and tree stumps. Another engineers opinion FWIW.

[Bennett]

In a water landing I would keep the gear retracted in all circumstances. A friend landed his 231 in a lake in an emergency, left his gear up, and "skipped like stone" across the water. When the aircraft stopped, he and his passenger (her first flight in a GA aircraft) stepped out on the right wing and waited until a boat came out and rescued them. He told me that he just landed it like we taught to do with sea planes- hold a slight nose high attitude and let it settle on its own. He said the 231 floated for quite a while before it filled with water and sank. Didn't stop him from flying. He bought another 231. The first 231 had just come out of annual, and shortly after takeoff from that FBO, the airplane was seen to have been trailing white smoke before the engine quit. I know the pilot to be a very conscientious person who always used his check lists, so the stoppage must have been mechanical.


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[flyboy0681]

2 minutes ago, Bennett said:

In a water landing I would keep the gear retracted in all circumstances. A friend landed his 231 in a lake in an emergency, left his gear up, and "skipped like stone" across the water. When the aircraft stopped, he and his passenger (her first flight in a GA aircraft) stepped out on the right wing and waited until a boat came out and rescued them. He told me that he just landed it like we taught to do with sea planes- hold a slight nose high attitude and let it settle on its own. He said the 231 floated for quite a while before it filled with water and sank. Didn't stop him from flying. He bought another 231. The first 231 had just come out of annual, and shortly after takeoff from that FBO, the airplane was seen to have been trailing white smoke before the engine quit. I know the pilot to be a very conscientious person who always used his check lists, so the stoppage must have been mechanical.


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I watched Sully just last night. 

[Piloto]

Mooneys do float. To increase flotation time close the vents, pilot window and cabin door. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Piloto

[aggiepilot04]

3 minutes ago, Bennett said:

In a water landing I would keep the gear retracted in all circumstances. A friend landed his 231 in a lake in an emergency, left his gear up, and "skipped like stone" across the water. When the aircraft stopped, he and his passenger (her first flight in a GA aircraft) stepped out on the right wing and waited until a boat came out and rescued them. He told me that he just landed it like we taught to do with sea planes- hold a slight nose high attitude and let it settle on its own. He said the 231 floated for quite a while before it filled with water and sank. Didn't stop him from flying. He bought another 231. The first 231 had just come out of annual, and shortly after takeoff from that FBO, the airplane was seen to have been trailing white smoke before the engine quit. I know the pilot to be a very conscientious person who always used his check lists, so the stoppage must have been mechanical.


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Out of curiosity, do you know what his flap setting was?

[Bennett]

One that scares me here in California is all those "fields" that look flat and inviting from altitude may be grape vines strung along wires, with sturdy posts to hold them up. I would think they would act like a cheese slicer. Does anyone know of a Mooney landing in grape vines?


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[Bennett]

Out of curiosity, do you know what his flap setting was?

He told me that he left the flaps in takeoff position. He had his passenger open the door and wedged in a jacket before they touched down. They had left the door open, which is why the airplane filled with water and ultimately sank.

On a very personal note, I wish he had stopped flying after that water landing. He died flying his second 231 in a horrible stall / spin accident on a missed approach in IMC. Even good experienced pilots can become disorientated and make mistakes.


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[thinwing]

11 minutes ago, Bennett said:

One that scares me here in California is all those "fields" that look flat and inviting from altitude may be grape vines strung along wires, with sturdy posts to hold them up. I would think they would act like a cheese slicer. Does anyone know of a Mooney landing in grape vines?


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Nope,but I know what a skydiver looks like after landing in a Lodi vineyard!

[thinwing]

1 minute ago, Bennett said:

 

He told me that he left the flaps in takeoff position. He had his passenger open the door and wedged in a jacket before they touched down. They had left the door open, which is why the airplane filled with water and ultimately sank.

On a very personal note, I wish he had stopped flying after that water landing. He died flying his second 231 in a horrible stall / spin accident on a missed approach in IMC. Even good experienced pilots can become disorientated and make mistakes.


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Just about perfect...if they had closed the door after splashdown..hopped cowboy style back to the tail to counter the weight of the engine..that Mooney would still be floating!

[mooniac15u]

18 minutes ago, Bennett said:

One that scares me here in California is all those "fields" that look flat and inviting from altitude may be grape vines strung along wires, with sturdy posts to hold them up. I would think they would act like a cheese slicer. Does anyone know of a Mooney landing in grape vines?


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I have similar concerns regarding corn and soybean fields in the midwest.  Any dense vegetation could snag the gear and at least cause the plane to pitch nose down at a very inopportune time.  If you can touch down without having the nose contact first, then having the gear down may very well be a better option.

[salty]

I love this place. It's like a newtons law. For every opinion there is an equal and opposite opinion. 

[aggiepilot04]

8 minutes ago, Bennett said:

 

He told me that he left the flaps in takeoff position. He had his passenger open the door and wedged in a jacket before they touched down. They had left the door open, which is why the airplane filled with water and ultimately sank.

On a very personal note, I wish he had stopped flying after that water landing. He died flying his second 231 in a horrible stall / spin accident on a missed approach in IMC. Even good experienced pilots can become disorientated and make mistakes.


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I've always wondered whether the Mooney would skip vs dive at various flap settings while ditching.  Sounds like I have at least 4 steps in my ditching procedure.  Flaps: T/O, Door: Wedged Open, GTFO, Door: Closed.

 

Sorry to hear that it ended the way it did.  Hopefully we're still learning from his experiences.

[thinwing]

19 minutes ago, aggiepilot04 said:

I've always wondered whether the Mooney would skip vs dive at various flap settings while ditching.  Sounds like I have at least 4 steps in my ditching procedure.  Flaps: T/O, Door: Wedged Open, GTFO, Door: Closed.

 

Sorry to hear that it ended the way it did.  Hopefully we're still learning from his experiences.

My ditching...airspeed 70 kts..,position touchdown parallel to shore or wave,T/o flaps,door wedged open,vents closed,after splash down GTFO  door closed,walk to back of ship,open baggage hatch and grab floating Eperb..close baggage hatch and hop on aft fuselage and ride like a xmas pony!Two hours later,give up and swim for shore

[rbridges]

33 minutes ago, salty said:

I love this place. It's like a newtons law. For every opinion there is an equal and opposite opinion. 

And they're all right!

[aggiepilot04]

ride like a xmas pony!

Clearly the most important step in that procedure.


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[nels]

Gear up or down is a tuff call. On a rough or soggy surface a gear down will most certainly total the plane where a gear up may easily result in minor damage....provided no obstacles are in your path.

[bradp]

Gear up or down is a tuff call. On a rough or soggy surface a gear down will most certainly total the plane where a gear up may easily result in minor damage....provided no obstacles are in your path.

Plane should certainly be thought of as totaled from the moment the off field landing is determined to be necessary.




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[bonal]

On January 5, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Bennett said:

One that scares me here in California is all those "fields" that look flat and inviting from altitude may be grape vines strung along wires, with sturdy posts to hold them up. I would think they would act like a cheese slicer. Does anyone know of a Mooney landing in grape vines?


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I cant comment on how a Mooney would do but a few years ago an amphibious went down just after departing 1o2 and ended up in a mature vineyard he landed parallel to the rows and suffered some serious injuries but the plane although badly damaged was whole and did get repaired. I am surrounded by Napa Sonoma Mendocino countries and Lake country has turned into a major player in the wine vineyard industry. The rows are typically 5 to 6 feet apart and as long as you can get it lined up there are no obstructing items going cross ways. But having to force land in a vineyard would be very low on my preferred choices 

getting back to the accident of this thread hope we will get word about what was the cause of the engine failure 

[bradp]

I'd take a vineyard over what I usually fly over.


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[bonal]

2 minutes ago, bradp said:

I'd take a vineyard over what I usually fly over.


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I certainly wasn't trying to create a competition just answered a question that was asked. Lots of worse options than a vineyard but if you've ever been in one and saw all the posts wires stakes not to mention the very strong trunks of a mature grape you would understand that it could be a real nasty place to drop into.

[bradp]

Makes sense. Given a few options (soybean vs vineyard) sounds like there is a lot more than foliage above ground level.


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