Annual time - Give up my logbooks?

[Andy95W]

18 minutes ago, PTK said:

And...is that your final answer?! 

 

 

Good. You can have all the paper hard copies you want! I'll even give you copies of copies!! 

I think that would be entirely acceptable.  For an airplane and owner I hadn't seen before, I would probably want to see the logbooks just to quickly verify I wasn't looking at someone else's xerox'ed logbook pages.  After that, I would have no problem just handing over a stick-on logbook entry.

Q: if a pilot, due to pilot error, runs out of fuel, who gets sued?

A: the last mechanic to sign the logbook, the last IA to sign off an annual, the airplane manufacturer, the fuel supplier, and the FBO that sold the fuel.

Sure, the jury will probably not hold the mechanic liable, but who ends up paying the lawyers for what we all already know is true?

[bonal]

The question that comes to mind for me is what kind of annual on a Mooney or even a simple airplane can be done in a single day as indicated by the OP

[TWinter]

6 minutes ago, bonal said:

The question that comes to mind for me is what kind of annual on a Mooney or even a simple airplane can be done in a single day as indicated by the OP

My annuals (not even a MSC) usually take a week. My shop recently raised his rates to a flat $2K, plus the cost of fluids, filters etc.. Usually I'm heading home about $2200 lighter in the wallet. I also get to hear him bitch and complain that even at $2k he has a hard time getting the annual done within 40hrs. Not sure how much is fact or fiction, but his annuals are pretty comprehensive and recurring ADs and so forth are kept neatly in typed format folders and returned with my logs etc. I do leave all my logs for the week. It is a smaller shop with only 2 main worker bees and a owner/boss, so as far as somebody screwing up it's not hard to find out who put what where.

 

-Tom

[Jerry 5TJ]

I owned two 1960s Mooneys and the quantity of log entries compared to all the work that was obviously done with NO entries was large in both.  

We put way too much stock into having "complete logs" wherein 10 years of maintenance is described in a few scrawled inky phrases.  

(My personal favorite log entry was found in the logs of a T210 I co-owned that read in its entirety: "replaced left wing with serviceable unit.")

Half a dozen most recent, extensively-documented printed annuals outweighs the previous 50 years' entries by a huge margin.  IMO  

My Ovation only has logs back to 2000.  (Wait, it's a 2000 model). Still, the maintenance prior to 2010 hardly matters.  IMO, again.

 

 

[Shadrach]

16 hours ago, M20Doc said:

It seems to be blown out of proportion, you're trusting the shop with your life by how well they do the annual, but you don't trust them with the logs.  If you're that bothered have them do their log book review while you're there, then tell them you'll bring them back for entries and a signature at the end.

I have around 100 sets in my possession at any one time, all kept in fireproof filing cabinets, I've never lost one yet.

Clarence

I appreciate that you and those that work at your facility are conscientious and professional. But $hi! happens. I know of folks who've had their logs held ransom. I know of folks that have shown up to a shuttered shop that abruptly ended operations without warning. It's a heck of a lot easier to lose a set of logs than it is to lose an airplane.  I know of some very talented mechanics that are challenged when it comes to business operations and organization. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, bonal said:

The question that comes to mind for me is what kind of annual on a Mooney or even a simple airplane can be done in a single day as indicated by the OP

One done by a shop which serves CB platinum club members.

Clarence

[Marauder]

I owned two 1960s Mooneys and the quantity of log entries compared to all the work that was obviously done with NO entries was large in both.  

We put way too much stock into having "complete logs" wherein 10 years of maintenance is described in a few scrawled inky phrases.  

(My personal favorite log entry was found in the logs of a T210 I co-owned that read in its entirety: "replaced left wing with serviceable unit.")

Half a dozen most recent, extensively-documented printed annuals outweighs the previous 50 years' entries by a huge margin.  IMO  

My Ovation only has logs back to 2000.  (Wait, it's a 2000 model). Still, the maintenance prior to 2010 hardly matters.  IMO, again.

 

 

But then again there are anal retentive guys like me who want to see and read EVERY page.

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[PTK]

Seriously though, how does one do an annual on a Mooney in one day?! That's quite a feat! Is this what's referred to as a signature annual?

The quickest annual turn around for me has been a week!

 

[Hank]

Peter, the phrase you're looking for is "Parker annual," named after the ubiquitous Parker ball point pen.

My last annual, and hopefully the next one and the next and . . . was a long weekend. I opened up everything before he got there, we worked together went out to lunch, and quit at a reasonable time. Saturday was a duplicate of Friday, 5-6 hours for each of us, and Sunday was paperwork day, done by noon. Then I just had to put all the inspection panels back on . . .

Just don't see how I could fly somewhere in the morning, remove panels,do everything, complete paperwork, reassemble and fly out the same evening. But what do I know? I'm not an A&P, much less an IA.

My previous annuals seemed to run about two weeks, longer if we had to order anything (like wheel bearings).

[Danb]

No I don't give my logs, I keep two paper copies updated and one is for my maintenance. About 15 years ago the mechanic lost my logs after two months of me not getting them ,I went throughout his files and found them in another persons file. Since then no way will I provide them again, if told I must I'll go elsewhere.

[NotarPilot]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

Seriously though, how does one do an annual on a Mooney in one day?! That's quite a feat! Is this what's referred to as a signature annual?

The quickest annual turn around for me has been a week!

 

It was an owner assisted annual. I helped take off the panels. 

No, it wasn't a signature annual we actually did the work but after talking with Marauder, after meeting him on a trip to Airventure, I had doubts about how thorough of an annual we were doing. I decided to find a MSC to do the next annual being that my family flies in my plane with me. I expect to pay about 2 to 3 times as much as my previous annuals but this year I'm leaving my CB card on the shelf. 

[NotarPilot]

20 minutes ago, Danb said:

No I don't give my logs, I keep two paper copies updated and one is for my maintenance. About 15 years ago the mechanic lost my logs after two months of me not getting them ,I went throughout his files and found them in another persons file. Since then no way will I provide them again, if told I must I'll go elsewhere.

After reading all these comments from everyone I'm definitely not handing over logbooks to a shop I've never worked with before. Doing so would feel insane to me. If they'll end up insisting it I'll have to take the plane somewhere else. Thanks for all the comments and input from everyone.

[HRM]

Hmmm...time to jump in.

My IA told me to never have my logs in the plane, ever. So I have never taken them to him. He gets a flash drive with the scanned versions. Each year he gives me a set of stickers and I give him a check. He also gives me a few pages of AD sign-offs printed out by a program he has that keeps track of them. If I ever go to someone else, that is what they'll get.

Being a very anal-OCD engineer, I have a multi-sheet Excel workbook with everything that has ever happened to my E, including flight time. The PO started it by copying everything out of the original logbooks. Yeah, he was an engineer too.

I installed an MVP-50 four years ago and I have one second interval logs from every second the engine has run since then--EGT, CHT, RPM, GPS, you name it.

Logbooks are a dinosaur, I just keep them in a fire safe for the next owner, who will get them from my kids when they liquidate my bird.

[yvesg]

What is an OCD Engineer?

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, PTK said:

Seriously though, how does one do an annual on a Mooney in one day?! That's quite a feat! Is this what's referred to as a signature annual?

The quickest annual turn around for me has been a week!

 

It should take about 15-20hrs for a mechanic to inspect a Mooney from start to finish. A significant amount of that is preparation (removing of panels, jacking aircraft, reviewing logs etc).  If the airplane properly prepped, the mechanic should need little more than a mirror and a flashlight to complete the physical inspection. In a situation like this, if all goes smoothly, the physical inspection can be completed in a long day.

[carusoam]

Obsesive

Compulsive 

Diseased

Engineer...

The mooney pilots that like to check and recheck their own work.  It's not like they studied this in college...

Best regards,

-a-

[NotarPilot]

4 hours ago, yvesg said:

What is an OCD Engineer?

Edited October 20, 2016 by NotarPilot
Is there another type of engineer?

[Yetti]

we did the annual at the IA direction and me being the gopher.  You know go for this go for that.  He had me do the first pass at the AD list which took about 4 hours of my time.  We had a nice sit down chat with the log books.  I gave him a check for more than he asked.  We had a nice day.  Mechanical fuel pump failed the next flight.

[Seth]

More pilots these days prefer to give a shop electronic copies of logs.

Shops don't like that.  It's easier for them to flip though pages of 30+ year old logs.

As more and more records are kept in a digital fashion, and the owners become more technically savvy, shops will drop the issue.

Its a question or issue now.  In 10-20 years, shops will have no qualms and may even request digital copies.

-Seth

[mike_elliott]

In 20-30 years, the FAA will have a "med express" like system costing a few billion in place for all maintenance done on your aircraft Ill bet.

[NotarPilot]

Ok, here's where we are as of today. Yesterday I emailed all my logs minus the airframe logs being that that file was too large and got bounced back. The maintenance manager acknowledged receiving them and said they appear to have everything they need. This afternoon I got an email from his containing his response from the "Inspection department"

Can you please advise Steve that we need to have all of his logbooks so we can thoroughly perform a logbook research as to what’s due on his airplane? Majority of the ones he sent to us via email are not printable unless they are on a PDF file format plus it’s going to take more time and paper to print them all out. 

The non-printable ones he mentioned were the most recent ones I scanned since I bought the plane in 2012 which were scanned in jpeg since I couldn't get the scanner to scan in PDF. 

I'm really considering calling tomorrow to cancel. I don't believe they absolutely need them. On the other hand if they agree to do the annual without them, how much longer will it take which they will surely bill ME for?
 

Edited October 21, 2016 by NotarPilot

[RLCarter]

I understand some are reluctant in leaving the Logs seeing how the market value seems to substantially lower with missing logs. Here is my take on the whole thing, the aircraft is worth 100% of the value and you left it there, your also putting your trust in them that you and your family and friends will be safe to fly in the aircraft when they are through with the maintenance. You have copies of the logs, which makes reconstructing them very easy especially since they are actual photos of the pages. Shops / A&P IA deal with logs all the time and I would imagine the percentage of “lost” logs is probably lower than those lost by the owners them self. For those that are worried about your logs being held ransom my advice would be to communicate better with your maintenance facility as to what the cost is going to be before the repairs take place and get it in writing. Working “with” your maintenance facility is a whole lot more pleasant than working against them. My suggestion would be to make paper copies that are very legible for next time, thumb drives are nice but are more than likely harder to deal with than you think. I have copies of all my logs, 337’s and STC’s, etc...(actual digital photos) and spent the time to print them out and get them in a binder and I still give my Original Logs to the IA when he asks for them.

[clh]

Just my $0.02. If you don't trust your mechanic with your logs, why do you trust him/her with your life!  My mechanic encourages me to be as involved with maintenance as I can be.  If I am not there, he has the books. They are stored in his safe.  It is not that big of a deal.

[xcrmckenna]

Would a shops insurance cover lost or some how destroyed logs? Or what would happen?


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[Bravoman]

On 10/19/2016 at 11:05 PM, yvesg said:

What is an OCD Engineer?

What isn't an OCD engineer is the better question!