TruTrack Autopilots to be certified for legacy airplanes

[cliffy]

Oshkosh had Trutrack there with there Vizion digital A/P showing it was to be STC'd by Sun n Fun for a large variety of legacy airplanes. 

They had it mounted in a 172 for the SE Cessna line and they have a Mooney in the wings next. 

Will be priced (minus installation @$!500) at about $5000 

They had to go to fully declutchable servos to satisfy thet FAA hence the price increase from experimental

EAA is doing the certs as they did on the electronic horizon. 

[KSMooniac]

That would be the best news in years! I'd likely replace my STEC 30 with one.

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[cliffy]

The new servos are somewhat bigger than the experimental ones but they will work fine. On the Cessna, one is mounted just ahead of the control wheel tube, on the firewall and the other is in a wing, driving the ailerons. This would work for all the SE cessna line. 

After much experimentation I think mounting both servos behind the baggage pit on/under the radio shelf and driving the rudder and elevator from there would be the best and  easiest way to do it (cheap install). My Mooney flies just fine using just the rudder pedals for course control. I can make very nice turns with just rudder. 

 

[jetdriven]

I dont think you can hook an autopilot to the rudder for wing leveling. It has to go to the ailerons. 

[peevee]

No chance it can use existing servos?

[cliffy]

No chance on existing servos. Not compatible. The new servos are stepping motors digitally controlled.

Don't know why a rudder servo wouldn't work.  Why does it have to go to the ailerons? Tradition? The rate of movement and the strength of movement of the servo is totally controllable on the computer there in. Have you ever tried to control a Mooney with rudder only? I have. It works fine. 

The interconnect between the two seems to have a good effect on the turn qualities.when applied smoothly.

[jetdriven]

Probably because the best way to control roll is with ailerons, and the install manual will say connect the servo the aileron control system.  You might get someone to sign of on the other way m, but if like to see that.

[Sabremech]

I think the servo would fit fine in the right wing where the Brittain vacuum servo sits and the elevator servo would fit in the fuselage access panel area and hook up right where the Brittain servo connects to the elevator push rod. 

David

[rbridges]

Not familiar with this AP.  How does it compare to an STEC 50?

[aviatoreb]

Fantastic - This would be yet another breakthrough precedent for allowing experimental avionics into certified aircraft.  Perhaps others will follow?

[jetdriven]

You have to read carefully into the NORSEE stuff the FAA has published.  It spexifically calls out attitude indicators, autopilots, and such but doesn't open the door very far. I can't see a G3X touch to replace the six pack nor a HSI page on the Garmin G5

[cliffy]

 

The servo mount for the Brittain is one hole in the spar of the airplane. The servo mount for the TT would be a few holes (maybe pick up the one used by a Brittain). The Feds might not like to see more holes in the spar or money would need to be spent on a DER? Just thinkin'

Granted it MAY turn out that the "roll" servo may be required to be attached to the aileron system in some way but I still see no reason why it couldn't be tried and tested on the rudder axis in the back just like the elevator hook up could be.  Steering by rudder alone in a Mooney works fine. The next question might be, "what if the interconnect spring breaks?".  When was the last broken interconnect spring anyone has ever seen? Secondly, if it's not acting correctly, turn it off and hand fly!  

One item mentioned at OSH was that the Feds don't want to see this AP attached to  flight control cables with bridle cables and a capstan drive (Bs and Cs), hence the mount to the elevator control tube behind the instrument panel and  a hard push/pull rod for the roll in the wing for Cessnas. 

With the NORSEE allowing "performance based"  application I'm feeling other systems like the G3X might eventually be approved (with a backup ADI at least). 

http://www.trutrakap.com/product/vizion-380/

This is the version for the experimentals. Different servos are being required by the Feds that completely disconnect from the motor when no power present. Hence, again, the doubling of the price. The experimental ones have the gear train drag present at all times. 

I have read the entire NORSEE just like I read the entire ADSB papers (many, many pages). 

 

 

[Sabremech]

Hi Cliff,

The Brittain servo is connected to a bracket that is riveted to the top wing skin and lower wing skin at a stiffener. I found no attachment to the spar on mine. I think the Trutrak could be installed quite easily and cleanly in our Mooney's. 

David

[ryoder]

52 minutes ago, Sabremech said:

Hi Cliff,

The Brittain servo is connected to a bracket that is riveted to the top wing skin and lower wing skin at a stiffener. I found no attachment to the spar on mine. I think the Trutrak could be installed quite easily and cleanly in our Mooney's. 

David

Oh God don't bring back memories of this servo.  My arms are aching thinking about it.

[jamesm]

Wow you guys are head of the game !!!!!  I know I am stating  the obvious but....

I have been thinking about  how to  go about  getting the attention of folks at Tru Trak  to being even interest in us Mooney owners. I figured  that  Tru trak is going for the most produced certified  aircraft the C172. I heard something like 30 K  C172 have been produced.    Wiki says there are something like 11k Mooney's produced. I  take that as all models, I suspect the reality of it is more like 7K or less that are actually airworthy and  still flying in the U.S. and of that even a smaller number of  us Mooney owner that would  willing fork over the cash  for a Tru Trak autopilot.  I suppose there are other reason why someone isn't interested in a autopilot like  they already auto pilot that is good enough or their finances are tight.  I don't know where to get the actual list of number of Mooney's airworthy and  still flying in the U.S.  but may be if there is enough of us ..... :-)   Maybe We could spark interest at the Folks at Tru Trak to consider Mooney if show to them we have x,xxx  number of committed owners that are willing to pay $$$$$  buy their auto pilot .

It would be nice thought .  I could only image to the get a STC AML for an auto pilot must be one tougher STC to get.  I guess one thing us Mooney owner we have going for us is  that we are all under the same  2A3  Air frame TCDS.

 

James '67C

 

 

[bradp]

There may be a higher rate of interest in the unit / total number of aircraft produced for the Mooney compared to the C172.  How many of those Cessnae are used for primary training where an autopilot is of little value?  Among cross country machines like Moonies, how many would benefit from a useful autopilot?  I'd argue many.  The impediment has been the lack of value in putting a 15k +5k install autopilot into a 40k airframe makes almost no financial sense except for the owners perceived value from a safety or convenience standpoint.  This could be popular Among the M20 airframe owners.  

[MB65E]

On August 8, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Sabremech said:

I think the servo would fit fine in the right wing where the Brittain vacuum servo sits and the elevator servo would fit in the fuselage access panel area and hook up right where the Brittain servo connects to the elevator push rod. 

David

Where was the elevator servo originally on the legacy airplanes?On the Bravos, and later models, it was chained to the trim torque tube. All my PC stuff was removed in the 80s. There is a noch in the left wing inspection panel where some hack job need more room to remove the servo. Ass!

I have always liked the TRue trak Equiptment. Their software has really smooth flight  characteristics .

-Matt

[ryoder]

7 hours ago, MB65E said:

Where was the elevator servo originally on the legacy airplanes?On the Bravos, and later models, it was chained to the trim torque tube. All my PC stuff was removed in the 80s. There is a noch in the left wing inspection panel where some hack job need more room to remove the servo. Ass!

I have always liked the TRue trak Equiptment. Their software has really smooth flight  characteristics .

-Matt

That is an incompetent mechanic.  Greg and I installed and removed the servo about twenty times.  No notch needed.

[Sabremech]

Hi Matt,

For the Brittain wing leveler, there is a bracket that mounts on the aft baggage comp wall and then another one aft in the rear fuselage. The two servos connected to a connection of two pushrods for the rudder in the aft fuselage access panel area. There is plenty of room to mount a Trutrak AP servo on the other side in this location to connect to the elevator pushrods. If you'd like, I'll take some pictures of the brackets, as that's all I have in mine now after removing the Brittain last year.

David.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Sabremech

[cliffy]

I'm not near my plane right now but I'll swear that my servo is mounted with 1 bolt through the wing spar BUT i could be wrong so I'll check it when I get home from this trip.

I figured the TT servo could mount under the battery shelf just aft of the baggage bulkhead with its push/pull rod going aft to the ball joint hanger.

[Gunderbear]

I am working with the Great Folks at Tru Trak and hopefully by Sun and Fun we will have a Mooney with their autopilot.  When people talk about the price of $5k i ask them what is the value of their family's safety.  The wait time for a Brittain upgrade is over two years and you give up your plane for a long time for the instillation.  I am excited about a two day install and upgrades that are plug and play with the TruTrak.  Really looking forward to having a safer aircraft for the long trips.

[aaronk25]

I'd order one immediately upon availability!


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[Yetti]

As long as it if for the safety of the family it should always cost more.

[bradp]

Question for gunderbear: which autopilot model is being installed in the Mooney (or which AP models are they looking to include in the EAA STC?).  The reason I ask is that the literature on their website seems to indicate they are perusing ECO and Vizion models for the C172, but no mention of the sorcerer.  Seems like the vizion can track vertical speed, vertical GPS guidance (LPV), and GPSS but not LOC/Nav.  However the sorcerer can do LOC/Nav and everything else.  I think most mooneyites that fly IFR would be more likely to be in the market for the sorcerer.  

[231MJ]

Can't wait to sell my C-21 on ebay...it was a descent autopilot in it's day but those days are long gone.  I finally have reason to say "thank you FAA".