Starter issue?

[Patto]

This morning we loaded up into my '74 M20C to fly up to the Oregon International Airshow. After the pre-flight, seat belts fastened, excitement in the air, we were ready to go. But, when I turned the key and pushed in, nothing happened. No sound from the starter at all.

Everything else was powered up and ready to go. I tried turning the prop a revolution by hand, still nothing from the starter.

Any ideas on things I can try?

[Marauder]

This morning we loaded up into my '74 M20C to fly up to the Oregon International Airshow. After the pre-flight, seat belts fastened, excitement in the air, we were ready to go. But, when I turned the key and pushed in, nothing happened. No sound from the starter at all.

Everything else was powered up and ready to go. I tried turning the prop a revolution by hand, still nothing from the starter.

Any ideas on things I can try?

I can't remember if the Bendix sticking will be no sound or a whirling sound. The Bendix is the teethed gizmo located at just below the prop. Spray some silicone in there, just don't get it on the alternator belt.

Also make sure your ignition switch wires are secured.

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[ArtVandelay]

If no sound, it's not the bendix drive, you definitely would hear it over speed. I would put a voltmeter on the starter relay, if you get power on the in side, then the switch is good, then check the out side. You basically start verifying: switch,relay, starter itself.

[Jim Peace]

2 hours ago, Patto said:

 No sound from the starter at all.

 

Was there a vibrator sound from the shower of sparks and just no sound from the starter?  If so I had the same issue and it was fixed by a MSC and determined to be the starter relay.  No problems since I replaced it.  It is an 80 dollar part plus labor etc etc.....

Edited August 6, 2016 by Jim Peace

[Patto]

Nope, no sound, no movement, no shower of sparks. Zilch. Nada. Nothing!

[Hank]

Check the health of your battery, too. Summer heat is hard on them.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Hank

[Patto]

3 minutes ago, Hank said:

Check the health of your battery, too. Summer heat is hard on them.

That was my first thought, but everything else powered up. Does the starter have a minimum voltage before it will activate?

[ArtVandelay]

3 minutes ago, Hank said: Check the health of your battery, too. Summer heat is hard on them.

That was my first thought, but everything else powered up. Does the starter have a minimum voltage before it will activate?

You would hear the relay click even with minimum power.

[carusoam]

Starter switches are complex.  They wear slowly.  The last thing to fail on my M20C was it's ignition switch.  After I sold it, but before the new owner took it...

1) Sounds like the battery is good enough to get to the next step.

2) If the starter switch is working, it powers a relay (I believe).  This would sound an audible click.

3) is this the push to start type switch?  (This is what failed on my 65C)

4) it is possible that all the contacts may benefit from cleaning the switch...?

5) if the switch is working and the relay closes, the starter motor will try to turn...

6) if you here a whirrrrrrr.  That's the starter turning without the Bendix drive engaged.

7) light corrosion causes the Bendix drive to stick.  A little light lubrication works wonders.

8) old starter motors suffer from dead spots.  Since the relay didn't click, you are not here yet...

 

there should be some pictures of starter switches around here somewhere.  The push to start type is probably the right one.  Get a feel for how to test it, then a get a feel for how to get it replaced if it is worn..,

 

PP experience only, I am not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[Guest]

Here is the trouble shooting guide from Sky Tec, applicable regardless of starter brand.

http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm

Clarence

[Patto]

Thank you.  I am suspecting the ignition switch as a possible culprit.  It is the turn-and-push type.  I have a guy going out to look at it tomorrow.

This was the first time I've had the airplane unflyable.  

[jamesm]

If it turns out  that  your problem  is on the  ignition  side and if you have the old style circuit breaker ... one thing to consider   is the circuit breaker. Several year ago  my "Cigarette lighter /Ignition"  (10A)  circuit breaker  went intermittent on me it took me figure it  out because The Cigarette lighter connection was intermittent as well which  led me astray. Replaced circuit breaker I could  hear the shower of sparks buzz.

 

James '67C

 

[Patto]

You may be onto something James. The cigarette lighter has been an issue. The Garmin 695 plugs into it, and if you don't have the adapter at the right angle, it doesn't get a charge. Maybe the cig lighter is an issue. I'll have to swing by and see if it's still working. I believe it was when we tried to start it, but I'll double check.

[Patto]

18 hours ago, jamesm said:

If it turns out  that  your problem  is on the  ignition  side and if you have the old style circuit breaker ... one thing to consider   is the circuit breaker. Several year ago  my "Cigarette lighter /Ignition"  (10A)  circuit breaker  went intermittent on me it took me figure it  out because The Cigarette lighter connection was intermittent as well which  led me astray. Replaced circuit breaker I could  hear the shower of sparks buzz.

 

James '67C

 

You saved me at least an hour of shop time.  The mechanic and I went through the diagnostics together.  When I checked the cig lighter and saw that it was not working, I told him I thought it was the breaker.  He humored me and my nonsense and we checked it.  Sure enough, the buss had power, every other breaker had power, but the ignition/cig lighter did not!  He's replacing it as we speak.

[Patto]

Look what I found with the cowl off, though.  The mechanic said I could leave it and have it fixed at the annual, but I think I'm going to take care of it sooner.

[Lrn2Fly]

Major exhaust leak, cracked plug cap, frayed plug wire.  And we're not grounding the airplane immediately, why?  I think I'd find a new mechanic!

[Yetti]

none of that is supposed to look like that.  There is alot of wrong in that one picture.

[carusoam]

Maybe he meant don't fly it until annual...  Is that next week?

Anything broken that holds something on my plane usually gets replaced.

Exhaust leaks have a tendency to start fires or cut things like a cutting torch.

Exhaust leaks tend to dump CO into the cabin.

Replacing an ignition wire like that is relatively low cost, and easy with the cowl off.  Find out what the cause of that damage is.

 

Follow-up question: Are you getting any rough running spots because there may be a spark not happening?  Any JPI data with that?

Best regards,

-a-

[Jim Peace]

5 hours ago, Patto said:

Look what I found with the cowl off, though.  The mechanic said I could leave it and have it fixed at the annual, but I think I'm going to take care of it sooner.

You need a new mechanic....

I would replace the entire harness both sides,,,replace all plugs with new fine wires.  Fix or replace the exhaust.  I can't imagine what your tail pipe must look like...

Plus you need to fix your starter issue...

easily 2k with of repairs here........

This is why I seldom fly in friends airplanes......very few owners take mx seriously.

 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Patto said:

Look what I found with the cowl off, though.  The mechanic said I could leave it and have it fixed at the annual, but I think I'm going to take care of it sooner.

You definitely need a new maintainer, a much more through one.  It makes me wonder what else is lurking beneath the covers?

Clarence

[Andy95W]

And this is the same airplane that has fuel tank leaks (thread "Fuel Tank Woes").  Is this maintainer the same that resealed the fuel tanks just 3 years ago?  I'm kind of afraid to ask how the rest of the airplane is underneath.

I think your airplane probably needs a fresh set of eyes taking a look at it.  Your current guy may have years of experience and good skills, but he's letting stuff go that shouldn't.  In cases like this, either the owner has to pick up the slack or it needs a new mechanic.

Good luck, please keep us posted.

[Patto]

Just to be clear, this was the first time this mechanic has seen the airplane. I had what I thought was a thorough pre-purchase inspection before I bought it and that was in California 2 months ago. Unfortunately, he missed a lot of things that I consider to be very important. So, to answer some of the questions, no this mechanic is not the one who resealed the tanks.  However, looking at the logbook entry it appears that it was done by the same person who did the annual at the time, so it was not done by one of the specialists for that task.

As far as the starter issue goes, it is now resolved with a new breaker. I am also having the cigarette lighter socket put on its own breaker rather than sharing one with the ignition and gear actuator.

Going forward, it looks like I need to replace the gasket for the exhaust manifold and the valve cover on the cylinder aft of that one. I also ordered a new lead and cap for that spark plug.

Now, I am comfortable turning a wrench. Is there anything very complicated about replacing those gaskets or that spark plug lead that would prohibit me from doing it myself and getting the mechanic to sign off on it?

[Marauder]

10 minutes ago, Patto said:

Just to be clear, this was the first time this mechanic has seen the airplane. I had what I thought was a thorough pre-purchase inspection before I bought it and that was in California 2 months ago. Unfortunately, he missed a lot of things that I consider to be very important. So, to answer some of the questions, no this mechanic is not the one who resealed the tanks.  However, looking at the logbook entry it appears that it was done by the same person who did the annual at the time, so it was not done by one of the specialists for that task.

As far as the starter issue goes, it is now resolved with a new breaker. I am also having the cigarette lighter socket put on its own breaker rather than sharing one with the ignition and gear actuator.

Going forward, it looks like I need to replace the gasket for the exhaust manifold and the valve cover on the cylinder aft of that one. I also ordered a new lead and cap for that spark plug.

Now, I am comfortable turning a wrench. Is there anything very complicated about replacing those gaskets or that spark plug lead that would prohibit me from doing it myself and getting the mechanic to sign off on it?

I replied on the fuel tank thread about the mechanic involved. Glad to hear this mechanic is there to help you through the issues and was not part of the problem. As for the work, there are limits on what you can work on without an A&P/IA signoff. Think it is all part of Part 43 under Preventative Maintenance:

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/pic-archive/aircraft-ownership/preventive-maintenance

[Andy95W]

It sounds like you are willing and able to pick up the slack and make your airplane right- that is great news.  Hopefully your mechanic is willing to work with you, teach some, and sign off your work.

No, there really isn't anything magical to working on airplanes, but the hints and tricks mechanics pick up over the years will save lots of time, frustration, and possible damage to components or parts.  That is where a good relationship with your mechanic comes in, of course.

I won't normally replace just one spark plug lead.  If one of them looks bad, normally all of them are about due for replacement along with the cap.

If you are going to replace one exhaust gasket, do yourself a favor and drop the whole exhaust down an inch and replace all of them, along with new hardware (and use real Lycoming exhaust nuts, not generic).

Your fuel tank can almost certainly be patched.  Finding someone who is comfortable with the work is essential, but it doesn't HAVE to be one of the specialty shops- although they do have the most experience with it, of course.

But Chris's comments above are key- your mechanic has to be willing to work with you and sign off the work.

[geoffb]

Nothing complicated at all.  Assuming your guy is willing to "supervise" your work and buy it off.  Not sure about Eugene, but there are very experienced Mooney mechanics with years of MSC time in Corvallis and Twin Oaks.  It can be unpleasant what they can find in a 1/2 hour.