Which Mooney?

[RJSmith]

Hello everyone. This is my very first post.  Recently started to get back into flying after retiring from military and have decided to purchase a plane for my own selfish reasons.  I will also complete my IR this year (safety and reduced insurance costs).  I've narrowed my search down to Bonanza or Mooney and would like to stay under 105k.  My standard mission is 700 miles (1 way) 2 X per month and a 500lb useful load.    Overall comfort for extended flying times, cabin noise, maintenance costs, and transition recommendations are welcomed.  Thanks in advance.

[mike_elliott]

Hi RJ, welcome!

A lot will depend on where your 700 mile trips will be to and from. In other words, turbo or not to turbo. If not to turbo, a 201 is hard to beat, and there are a lot of great ones in your price range. If a turbo is desirable, then a 231 would be a good choice, with a some nice ones available in your price range.

You will hear this more than once in your quest, get a good Prepurchase inspection by a good mooney shop, like Don Maxwell, LASAR, Top Gun etc. Get your transition training done by a mooney specific cfi.

 

[bonal]

Hi RJ let me be the first to welcome you. Thank you for your service. My question would be do you need a high performance SUV or a high performance sedan. If the latter then go Mooney. As for model well I fly a C but if I had your budget I would find a J IMHO it's the best of the bunch in terms of useful performance and still lower maintenance cost than the long body's 

[bonal]

Damn Mike you type faster than me

[carusoam]

Only 500# UL?  700mi, 20mpg, 35gal, 250# of fuel (roughly)

Go Mooney for speed and efficiency.  With 1000# UL available...

Go other plane for higher UL.  With the costs of being slower and less efficient...

 

Why go higher UL with lower speed and efficiency?

Best regards,

-a-

[KSMooniac]

I suspect he meant payload in the original post, and not useful load.

Many Mooneys will do that mission just fine. The harder question is figuring out exactly how much Mooney he wants!

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[Hank]

RJ, just a little hint. Don't look only at the full-fuel payload. Look at the fuel required for your trip (including headwinds and reserves), then at how much payload is left over. The difference there between a Mooney and a Bo may surprise you.

Also look at how CG shifts during flight with your 500 lbs inside as fuel burns off. In most loading configurations, a Mooney cannot be pushed out of CG limits when full or on fumes; this is not the case with many Bonanzas.

Enjoy your search, learn a lot, and buy the airframe & engine that are in the best mechanical shape.

[Brandontwalker]

You guys have 1000+ lbs useful? I only have 994.6...

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[Marauder]

13 minutes ago, Brandontwalker said:

You guys have 1000+ lbs useful? I only have 994.6...

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Looks like you may have put on some weight

[steingar]

Sit in a Mooney.  If you can do so comfortably, then I agree with the 201.  The M20J is the sweet spot for Mooneys, it is the fastest with the I0-360.  You can afford quite a bit of 201 on your stated budget.  If you can find one with extended tanks you can do the trip without a fuel stop, which makes it even faster.  The fastest airplane is always the one you don't have to land for gas.

And of course, thank you so much for your service in keeping our great nation free.

[mooniac15u]

I've done 700+ nm in my J several times without a fuel stop. Usually my passengers want a break. 

[RJSmith]

Thanks for the responses.  My desire is to have the ability to flight plan for at least 160 knots and be able to complete the 700NM trip with 500 lbs of passengers and gear without a stop (Northern VA to Orlando FL).  Based upon what I've read, it'll be difficult finding one with a 1000 lb UL, so I'm trying to run the numbers by gauging fuel requirements for that particular trip.  I will definitely take the opportunity to sit and fly in type as I'm 6'4" 230lbs and want to ensure that I can comfortably fit.

[Bennett]

Plus 1.  700 miles at 140 to 145 KTAS is very "doable" in a J, with over a 300 mile reserve.  The charts above can be handily beaten if you pull it back to 60 percent and operate the engine LOP, rather than the 25 dF ROP setting that the book recommends for economy cruise.  Gotta love it!

I agree completely. I normally run well ROP because in all candor I want the speed, and fuel costs are not my first priority, but my J runs just fine LOP, and I trade speed for range with good reserves when I make longer trips. I can (and do) fly San Carlos, CA to Scottsdale, AZ non-stop with move than a hour of reserves left in the J's standard tanks. Great airplane, as was my prior Mooney 261 conversion from a 231. Entirely different use of aircraft today, and I don't miss the turbo, with its higher maintenance, and little if any speed difference at my normal 7000' - 8000 trip altitudes.

Mm.

[Bennett]

Thanks for the responses.  My desire is to have the ability to flight plan for at least 160 knots and be able to complete the 700NM trip with 500 lbs of passengers and gear without a stop (Northern VA to Orlando FL).  Based upon what I've read, it'll be difficult finding one with a 1000 lb UL, so I'm trying to run the numbers by gauging fuel requirements for that particular trip.  I will definitely take the opportunity to sit and fly in type as I'm 6'4" 230lbs and want to ensure that I can comfortably fit.

Achieving 160 KTS TAS is doable in a J, (clean with some of the major speed mods) but not LOP. The full fuel useful load (passengers and baggage) in most J's is over 500 pounds. At 160 KTS TAS. Expect to burn 12-13 gal/hr. Leaving 15 gal for reserves leaves 50 gal. 50 gal divided by 12.5 = 4 hours. 4 hours times 160 knots = 640 miles (nautical).

[M20F-1968]

I have a turbonormalized F, does 160 knots all day long, 170 knots at 18,000ft.  Carries 980 lbs fuel and passengers and 90 gallons of fuel for two passengers with 1500 statute mile range with reserves.  You can find a nice F with mods, get the benefit of a Johnson bar, and live the simple life.

John Breda

[mike_elliott]

 

4 hours ago, Bennett said:

Achieving 160 KTS TAS is doable in a J, (clean with some of the major speed mods) but not LOP. The full fuel useful load (passengers and baggage) in most J's is over 500 pounds. At 160 KTS TAS. Expect to burn 12-13 gal/hr. Leaving 15 gal for reserves leaves 50 gal. 50 gal divided by 12.5 = 4 hours. 4 hours times 160 knots = 640 miles (nautical).

Here is one that can do 160 LOP. Only one I have been able to do it in though

 

[Bennett]

 

4 hours ago, Bennett said: Achieving 160 KTS TAS is doable in a J, (clean with some of the major speed mods) but not LOP. The full fuel useful load (passengers and baggage) in most J's is over 500 pounds. At 160 KTS TAS. Expect to burn 12-13 gal/hr. Leaving 15 gal for reserves leaves 50 gal. 50 gal divided by 12.5 = 4 hours. 4 hours times 160 knots = 640 miles (nautical).

Here is one that can do 160 LOP. Only one I have been able to do it in though

 

Mike, I have managed a TAS of 160 Kts a couple of times running LOP, but I have the LoPresti cowl (with its great Ram Air system), a PowerFlow exhaust system, a Top Prop, most of the LASAR speed mods, a one piece belly pan, and I keep her well waxed. I also keep enough safety gear in the baggage compartment to move the CG aft. I didn't want a prospective 201 purchaser to think that the average J can achieve these speeds LOP. And LASAR keeps my rigging such that she flys straight and true. It's taken me years to get my J in this condition, but if you spend enough money and work with great mechanics, it can be done.

[mike_elliott]

And yours is one of the finest examples of the J Model I have seen, Bennett. You are correct, not all Js will do this. N984vw, the one in my pics, is about the fastest one I have been in. The average J is slower by quite a few kts lop.

[cnoe]

 

4 hours ago, Bennett said: Achieving 160 KTS TAS is doable in a J, (clean with some of the major speed mods) but not LOP. The full fuel useful load (passengers and baggage) in most J's is over 500 pounds. At 160 KTS TAS. Expect to burn 12-13 gal/hr. Leaving 15 gal for reserves leaves 50 gal. 50 gal divided by 12.5 = 4 hours. 4 hours times 160 knots = 640 miles (nautical).

Here is one that can do 160 LOP. Only one I have been able to do it in though

 

Could you comment on your weight on this flight? You're showing only 14.1 gallons of fuel remaining at 158 knots TAS burning 8.5 gph (definitely LOP). It's certainly better than I can achieve. At 9,500' you're only turning 2,400 rpm which makes that speed even more impressive. At 2,600# I usually flight plan at 150 when running LOP.

[mike_elliott]

8 hours ago, cnoe said:

Could you comment on your weight on this flight? You're showing only 14.1 gallons of fuel remaining at 158 knots TAS burning 8.5 gph (definitely LOP). It's certainly better than I can achieve. At 9,500' you're only turning 2,400 rpm which makes that speed even more impressive. At 2,600# I usually flight plan at 150 when running LOP.

There was a bunch more fuel left than that, as the jPI wasn't reset at Longview when it was filled, and I was going to KCLW nonstop. The ships gauge shows more. This was over Crestview, FL. I am going to guess I was at 2300# when I took the photos. I did see 160 show up more often than Knot. It is an 84J, needs paint, 1800 hr engine, 5 interior 10 speed.

[bradp]

Mike at 9.5k feet and with CHTs near 400 you may likely be shallowly LOP (-10) and closer to stochiometric thus the improved performance over most.  

Mine was mis-rigged and wasn't waxed.  Stock '77.  At 6k I could expect 150 KTAS LOP (-25 to -50). ROP 158-159.  I've never hit 160. CHT alarms at 380, goal <370.   This is while babying the engine... 

I might edge out another knot or two after new paint, rigging, and getting rid of the ADF antenna.  

[mike_elliott]

Brad, I was 25 Lop. The upper rear baffle was folding under allowing air to escape before being blown over the cylinders, resulting in the higher than normal cht's. That has since been corrected. CHT's now stay well below 380, especially LOP. Ill probably fly her again later this week, but it will be much lower as the hop will only be to Daytona from Clearwater. Those pics are from a couple of years ago when I picked it up for the new owner from a dmax prebuy/annual. It hasn't slowed down any over the last few years, however. The 84's have most of the speed enhancements on them you can get, and are faster stock than a stock 77 because of this typically, but what are a few knots among friends. I could say It is because of the Aspen to get PTK all riled up again, but lets not poke that dog.

[Raptor05121]

On 5/21/2016 at 11:00 AM, Brandontwalker said:

You guys have 1000+ lbs useful? I only have 994.6...

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last weigh-in for me in 2004 was 1003lbs useful. I've since pulled 30 pounds of crap out, about to re-weigh mine.

[RJSmith]

With a 950 UL and the performance you guys are posting, Mooneys are still seems doable.  Would an M20J work if I wanted to take occasional trips out west (a couple of times per year)?  I'm just beginning this process, so I won't rush my decision.  

[Bennett]

With a 950 UL and the performance you guys are posting, Mooneys are still seems doable.  Would an M20J work if I wanted to take occasional trips out west (a couple of times per year)?  I'm just beginning this process, so I won't rush my decision.  

No reason why not. I usually make my cross the country trips on the southern route crossing the Rockies and Sierras . The Bay Area via Palmdale, CA - Soggi intersection - Palm Springs- Blythe - Phoenix (or Tucson) - (El Paso, Texas, (along Highway 10) - New Orleans- Gulfport - Florida works well. Eastbound, the winds generally favor higher, but you can do this trip 9,000' - 11,000' Westbound I tend to stay below 14,000' because of the prevailing winds.